EmbattledWarrior said:

An R&B classic...written by 2 white Jewish dudes :Leiber & Stoller.
See, none of these things are as simple as they seem

Miami Herald
August 10, 1997
Arts Edition Page: 1I

ELVIS' LASTING INFLUENCE: HE CUT ACROSS RACIAL DIVIDE

LEONARD PITTS JR Herald Columnist

Twenty years ago this week, Elvis Presley died and I didn't care. It wasn't antipathy I felt, but ambivalence. In those days I was associate editor of SOUL ("America's Most Soulful Newsmagazine"), a tabloid covering black entertainment. As far as I was concerned, Presley's death had nothing to do with me or my readers; he was irrelevant.

Nor was I alone in that estimation. Indeed I was, at 19, part of that post-Civil Rights school of black thought whose rejection of Elvis was pure reflex. We had a sense that Elvis Presley was an interloper who raided black culture and exploited it to a degree that blacks, being black, never could. It was like being made to live on the back porch of your own house and it raised a mighty resentment. Calling Presley the King of Rock 'n' Roll was, we felt, not unlike calling Jimmy Carter the President of Bolivia.

And then, there was this quote: "If I could find a white man who had the Negro sound and the Negro feel, I could make a billion dollars."

So said Sam Phillips, the man who would soon catapult Presley to glory in the mid-'50s. His words stung all the more for being true and for saying what they did about a black man's place in America. Stung so much that two, three, four decades later, we still felt the pain. What else explains the visceral hostility the black hip-hop community lavished on a man named Vanilla Ice, a white rap star of modest talents?

Presley's talents, on the other hand, were prodigious, which always made it tougher to dismiss him out of hand. Besides which, there's an inescapable irony in the fact that he has come to be called an icon of white cultural imperialism and racial division: In his years of greatest creative power, Elvis Presley brought black and white together, often at professional risk. Motown, disco and even rap, whose fan base is as much white as it is black, all grew out of that precedent he helped to set: the revolutionary idea that black and white could be brought together in -- and by -- the groove.

It's worth remembering that Presley arrived during the last -- and in some ways, the fiercest -- years of legally mandated separation of the races. It was a time when dance organizers might stretch a rope down the center aisle of an auditorium to keep black and white dancing apart. A time when police broke up white teen parties because it was thought the kids were swinging with too much abandon, swinging too much like Negroes. A time when sweaty white men with sledgehammers smashed open juke boxes containing music by Negro artists, music variously described as "animalistic," "jungle-like" and "savage."

What might they have thought to learn that "juke" itself was an old African word meaning to jab or poke, in a sexual sense? It's probably best they didn't know: The poor men were already outraged enough, their sense of decency, their sense of place and self, all under assault by a new sound emanating from the shanties on the wrong side of the track. Because this was a time of fire.

And Elvis Presley came not to cool that fire, but to stoke it, to make it higher and hotter until it razed the old order and swept away the old men with the sledgehammers where they stood. He married black and white, made country more rhythmic and rhythm more country until what he had sounded like neither and sounded like both. He challenged what had never been challenged before, and the fact that he was a good-looking white boy born among the temples of the old Confederacy only made the act that much more seditious. And subversive. And daring.

Vilified by the establishment

Small wonder the establishment reacted to him with such unbridled revulsion. "Unspeakably untalented," said The New York Herald Tribune. "Nightmare," said Look Magazine. Frank Sinatra called him "deplorable," Jackie Gleason promised that he wouldn't last, Billy Graham said, "I wouldn't let my daughter walk across the street" to see him. And then there's this sign, spotted on a used car lot in Cincinnati: "We guarantee to break 50 Elvis Presley records in your presence if you buy one of these cars today."

It wasn't simply the music that frightened them. It was what the music meant.

Elvis Presley brought separations together, resolved in one grand sweep the irresolution and interdependence of the black and white South. And he revealed segregation as a lie, unmasked white men doing what white men had done since the days of Thomas Jefferson and before: standing at the fence hole spying on black culture, taking notes. Unable to turn away, they stood there conjuring fantasies that blasted and offended their puritanical souls. The thing is, Elvis dared to live what he had conjured. With every throbbing quiver of his leg, every percolating note of rhythm guitar, with every whisper of loss, hymn of grace, thunder of righteousness from his outsized voice, he spoke what was then an officially unspeakable truth: that black and white are intertwined, entangled, woven together like braids.

Which is why James Brown's observation that Elvis "taught white America to get down" comes short of ultimate truth. What Elvis taught didn't stop with getting down, or even with white America.

Respect and admiration

Consider: According to Billboard Magazine, Presley was the third most popular black music artist of the 1950s, after Fats Domino and Dinah Washington. Between 1956 and 1963, he posted 24 Top 10 hits on the R&B chart. Hound Dog, Presley's version of Big Mama Thornton's 1953 hit, spent six weeks at No. 1 in 1956.

And black people, antennae preternaturally attuned to currents of culture and nuances of behavior, sensed something in him the charts could not quantify. Something sweet and genuine, something that respected and admired them. And they responded in kind. Upon spotting Presley one day, black girls on storied Beale Street in Memphis took off after him "like scalded cats," according to a black reporter. The black press noted with approval the way Elvis profusely and publicly thanked a Memphis friend, B.B. King, for ``the early lessons."

In his book, Last Train To Memphis, Peter Guralnick recalls how Jet magazine once undertook to verify Presley's rumored disparagement of black people ("The only thing Negroes can do for me is buy my records and shine my shoes.") Presley denied making the statement and Jet found no end of black acquaintances willing to vouch for him.

They seem small gestures now. Even Presley's black chart success has been repeated (though less spectacularly) by such white performers as Teena Marie, the Doobie Brothers and Hall and Oates. But in its time, in the days of fire, this was revolution.

Time for acknowledgement

And on the anniversary of Presley's death, it seems that the least we can do is remember these things and honor him for them. Elvis Presley has, after all, become rather a foolish figure these last years -- a tabloid mainstay kept alive by kitsch, an army of impersonators in rhinestone jumpsuits and the unwillingness of the easily gulled to believe him truly dead.

So it seems only fair to remind ourselves that whatever else he was, he was also this: one of the most dangerous men of a very dangerous time, a performer who dared integrate the two pieces of a disparate whole and tell the truth about what it means to be American. He forced raw-boned, hill-country white to look into kinky-haired, son-of-Africa black and see its own reflection. More, he forced us all to see a shared legacy of hardscrabble days and sweltering nights, of loving and longing and guitar twang, of train whistle and mule-drawn plow and front porch lemonade, of pea-picking and Moon Pie and the kind of yearning you can't speak, the kind that starts high in the throat as a keening sound and ends up low in the soul as a weary sigh.

This was music, yes. But it was also a miracle.

Twenty years ago Elvis Presley died and I thought it didn't matter.

I was wrong.

Herald File / 1956 THE KING OF ROCK 'N' ROLL: Elvis Presley died Aug. 16, 1977

None of us are denying the amazing impact that Elvis had in particular in the '50s. If the Beatles ruled over the '60s, and MJ ruled over the '80s, Elvis dominated the '50s unlike any other. There is a reason why he is still called the King of Rock and Roll. If anyone denies his continuing impact in music, performance, and pop culture, he or she is living in denial.

I think what TotalAlisa was attempting to articulate is the fact that through MTV, music videos, and world tours, MJ was able to reach as many races, nationalities, and cultures as he could. Elvis was from a different generation -- a time when dozens of countries in Asia, Africa, and eastern Europe were going through wars, mass industrial development, and post-colonial chaos. Another orger pointed out to me that The Jackson 5 were able to sell out concerts in Japan (not Korea, China, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc.) because it was the one nation in Asia that western-based performers most often went. A lot of people, including myself, forget that Michael Jackson did not start his career in the '80s with Thriller, but with The Jackson 5 which was very, very popular around the world. I had no idea until yesterday that "Jackson Mania" hit Great Britain, several countries in Europe, Africa, and Japan in the late '60s and throughout the '70s. And of course, Off The Wall brough Michael even greater global exposure. Moreover, MJ in the '80s was the face of American (and to a certain extent) Western popular music to countless people in the so-called "Third World" and for those living under the shadows of communism (see the reaction of the Soviet government to MJ for one example). Like Elvis Presley, I see Michael as the ultimate crossover artist.

JesseDezz, I am not sure why you keep bringing up the question of youth. I have no idea how old you are -- you might be 18 or 98 -- but who cares? While I question the relevance of bringing up MJ in this thread, I do not think TotalAlisa has said anything immature or wrong except for articulating her incredible love for MJ which has blinded her as to why Elvis Presley remains so important to a number of people. But IMO it has nothing to do with youth, but has much to do with the reaction of a diehard fan.

If you need concrete proof of what I have said in this post, check out album sales, world tours (which countries MJ sold out concerts in, in particular), and worldwide chart successes. Thriller built on the groundwork laid by The Jackson 5, The Jacksons, and Off The Wall, and was released at the perfect time -- when MTV was blossoming, and when people in the East were being exposed more and more to (and hungry for) Western culture, including its music.
[Edited 8/13/07 0:38am]
[Edited 8/13/07 1:05am]

JesseDezz said:

Maybe elvis was as big as michael.. during his time in the 60's as mike was big in the 80's... but right now 2007... michael is the biggest world wide...
I like to ask peole from elvis generation... who lived outside the US, and who were minorities living in the US... if they thought elvis was a legend... or if they were a fan?????
When people speak about elvis having some impact on people... it can't just be ONE type of people... it has to be almost all cultures.. young and old... and still affecting people today... LIKE MJ has...

people.. young kids are still inspired by michael jackson.... to this day.. and will continue.. because his legacy of music was that great... Michael was for EVERYONE... unlike elvis

MICHAEL'S PERFORMANCE...
if you watch the first performance of MJ.. you will see people crying.. of all races, young and old... BOYS AND GIRLS
http://www.youtube.com/wa...knzQjOen2M

second one is amazing too
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u1HeMhynUxc

Elvis peformance
http://www.youtube.com/wa...fuJnsWRkwE

Notice the difference between the fans... I don't see any asians,blacks, hispanics in elvis audience... and only females screamed over him... MICHAEL HAD EVERYONG if you watch mj concerts... GROWN MEN ARE FAINTING...


MICHAEL EARNED HIS TITLED.... lololol

TotalAlisa: While I agree with you that MJ was able to reach more races, nationalities, and cultures than Elvis Presley due to modern mass media and perfect timing, I do not think it is necessary to keep on comparing them, in particular considering the fact that the title of this thread does not mention MJ at all. You are just exposing yourself to ridicule. I can only defend your views to a point. LOL. Sure, MJ was incredible at his peak, but so was Elvis to a number of people. Perhaps, if you want, you can create a thread comparing the two -- though I advise against this since both bring out extreme emotions among people.
[Edited 8/13/07 7:31am]

Rodya24 said:

thanks Rodya... i will make my own thread comparing the two

For a thread with so many posts, I seem to be the only poster who actually likes Elvis!

I find it amusing and unsurprising that MJ is seen as the be-all and end-all by some on this board.

It's clear to me that imo more-or-less the most influential of the 20th century are -

1. Louis Armstrong (as the first truly modern [for his time] musical virtuoso in the history of recorded music and his vast influence as a vocal stylist) and

2. James Brown and his great '60s/'70s bands (for providing the rhythmic DNA for most popular music since the mid-60s, including being a profound influence on the much-vaunted MJ) are far more musically influential than MJ, or even Elvis. Then there's Ray Charles, without whom ...

And if we're talking about popularity in the so-called Third World, I'd suggest that Bob Marley (who has been called the widest-known musician of all by 'Time' Magazine at least) and again James Brown are more widely known and influential.

I view MJ as a sort of '80s/'90s equivalent to Sammy Davis Jr - a great song and dance man. I like MJ, but even when we add that MJ wrote some of his own songs, I'd still say Sammy was the more talented .

And as to who introduced what kind of music into another kind of music, never forget that the American popular music industry didn't come out of nowhere in 1955 with Elvis and the rise of soul and rock music - more like 1919-ish when jazz began sweeping the US in force and Tin Pan Alley got started, or even 1844 when Stephen Foster (who is considered to be the first full-time writer of 'pop' music in America)got his first song published.

How did we get from an article showing Elvis' lack of racism to A.N.Other 'MJ rules' discussion? Well, as I said in my first post, every time Presley's name comes up here, a thread just goes straight to hell.

How the hell did this turn into a MJ thread anyway?

I hate when people try and compare two totally different artists from totally different ERAS (which is really key here) when the only thing they might have had in common is that they have huge fanbases and were massively popular especially in their heydays.


Anyway I like Elvis. Not the cheesy, bloated, rhinestoned latter years, but his early performances. And I love bad Elvis movies as well.

Miles said:

This is the Million Dollar Question.

MsLegs said:

This is THEE Org where irrelevance is relevant

Miles said:

I do not think outside of the hardcore fans people think MJ is the god of music. Or that he is better than the list of men in your post. On the contrary. Most people would call Prince that. LOL. But I still stand by my statement that MJ was the face of American music (and to a certain extent Western) to countless around the world in the '80s. The timing was perfect. Several Asian and African countries with the execption of Japan, which had already undergone its economic boom in the '50s and '60s and continued to enjoy growth until the bubble economy collapsed on itself in the late '80s, were experiencing mass industrial development, and struggles for democratic reform with the consequent cries for further exposure to Western culture (of course, there was a backlash among conservatives and some student groups who called for a "Pro-Asia" or "Pro-Muslim," etc. attitude -- depends on which post-colonial region we are discussing). Moreover, the Soviet Union was beginning to collapse. The mass media was there which MJ took advantage of with his music videos. And his fame had been established with his work with The Jackson 5, The Jacksons, and Off The Wall. He just built on it with Thriller.

As for Sammy Davis, Jr. and his contemporaries, they did not have as wide of an exposure because they were born at a different time. Not becasue of a lack of talent.

And for the two people that you have listed as the two most influential musicians and performers of the twentieth century, well, opinions are opinions. Some would cry: Sacrilege! Where are The Beatles?

And my apologies for continuing to hijack this thread. I began by responding to TotalAlisa's posts... and we know what happened.
[Edited 8/13/07 8:58am]
[Edited 8/13/07 9:30am]

Still no excuse. that philosphy is only applicable to a chosen few on the org. And this is why their behavior is comical.

Lothan said:

Has she heard of Louie Armstrong?
Duke Ellington?
Count Basie?
King Oliver?
Can she name any of their songs?
So MJ has surpassed those great musicians because
he is better known to a 12 year old?
Its just a popularity contest?

MsLegs said:

Well lol they sure seem to get away with it from what I see.

thedoorkeeper said:

This all started because TotalAlisa out of knowwhere posted: "Why do people think Elvis is greater than MJ?" And then she, Lothan, EmbattledWarrior, and I had a "discussion" about their impact -- not who is better. No one has said, with the exception of TotalAlisa, that MJ is better than Elvis. I personally prefer the former, but that is just an opinion.

Rodya24 said:

Well, Sammy was part of the pretty world-famous at the time 'Rat Pack' with Sinatra, Dean Martin etc. I mentioned Sammy not to compare his fame with MJ's, more that I see certain broad similarities between the two as artists. And as an aside, Sammy was often to be seen in the audience at Elvis' early 1970s Las Vegas shows, and was frequently among the first on his feet dancing too.

Rodya24 said:

I'd probably put the Fab Four at number three or four, after the first two titans. Louis and James have influenced so so many artists both black and white around the world, while I'd say, from memory that, beyond the likes of Sly, Hendrix and P-Funk, the Beatles' influence on black and other non-white artists is less all-pervading. In fact, other than the black psychedelic funk-rock bands, I can't off-hand think of much influence the Beatles have had on black artists, other than some black jazz artists covering their songs and Prince in the mid-80s somewhat. If someone pops up with a hundred other black Beatles-influenced artists, then let's hear 'em .

All this is purely about opinion in the end. And I'm not here to diss anybody else's informed opinion, backed up with good evidence.

Miles said:

Well Stated indeed and dead on it.
[Edited 8/13/07 9:52am]

Miles said:

Sure, I have no doubt that Elvis Presley was influential among black musicians and performers. I have never denied that. I consider him a great singer and performer who, as this thread demonstrates in spades, conintues to be misunderstood. And around whom there still remains a cloud of unjustifiable suspicions of racism. In fact, I do not think I have ever denied his impact -- just qualifed it by saying that he did not live during a time when MJ had the technology to reach as many people (also the fact that he lived in a much more segregated world -- there were less visible yearnings for contact with Western culture). Of course, I would never have compared the two (since they are from different periods in history) if TotalAlsia had not brought up her question, "Why do people think Elvis is greater than MJ?" And we all know what happened.

As for Sammy Davis, Jr.'s impact on MJ, sure, the latter has cited him as a great influence. And yes, Davis was "world-famous" as part of the "Rat Pack." But again, the "Rat Pack" existed in a different time. And being "world-famous" then pales to the level of fame that MJ experienced in the '80s and what I would argue, Osama bin Laden, or President Bush experience right now.

As for your list of the most influential musicians and performers of the twentieth century, I do not have your expertise in popular music to justify why The Beatles should be higher (ask me about colonial history but not about Louis Armstrong ). I just brought up their name because so many "established" music magazines cite them -- which I think again, reeks of ignoring the significant qualifier that you brought up: influence among BOTH black and white musicians. And I was not attempting to belittle your statements with my comment that "opinions are opinions." I just think these lists are often subjective (i.e. Rolling Stone: Worship of Beatles).

Miles said:

Indeed.

thedoorkeeper said:

Sigh. I was only making the MJ v. Elvis comparison because it was part of the thread. Yes, my daughter does know who those people are aside from King Oliver who I don't know either. No, it is not a popularity contest but I can tell you I don't give pumps and a stroke about Elvis.

Lothan said:

Pumps & a stroke...
Never heard that before.
Actually I don't give pumps & a stroke about Elvis either.
He's part of the 1950's music scene to me & very very very
little from that time period has ever grabbed me.
When I was a kid Elvis was a guy who made shitty movies
& when he died I really could have cared less.

Versus say Jim Croce - when he died I was happy because I thought it meant an end to his horrible(in my opinion) songs on the radio.
Unfortunately I was way wrong & his music would not die for quite awhile.
[Edited 8/13/07 13:04pm]

MsLegs said:

...and double that indeed 2 a most definitely.

thedoorkeeper said:

The 50s were Motown to me. And you take that back about Croce. I loved his music.

...and while I'm at it...

There's a big, thick line between truly being and emulating in music.

Elvis felt what he did, truly. He most certainly was the farthest thing from racist. He loved the music so much, that he insisted on doing what he loved no matter what. The fact that he became a "star" was secondary, and arguably incidental. He was used by Sam Phillips, and especially Col. Tom Parker. The guy was real.

Folks like Jackie Wilson, B.B. King, Redd Fox (who was a close friend), etc, would testify 2 this. I'm the 1st person 2 call someone out 4 "stealing", "borrowing", or just simply being influenced, but Elvis put his own spin on every rendition of every song he did.

Folks here R also forgetting that doing renditions of previous songs is what most artists did before the '60s. It's what they did with their versions that was important. Listen 2 Carl Perkins' "Blue Suede Shoes", then listen 2 Elvis' version. Listen 2 the original "Hound Dog", then listen 2 Elvis' version. Neither is "better", but Elvis' versions sure were different.

Elvis got flack from 2 different "groups"... the racist Anglos who feared him and his sound, and the traditional swing artists, who just hated Rock & Roll.

Personally, I'm a Funk musician, but I also dig '50s swing, '50s rock, jazz, blues, brasilian, hip-hop (before '94), house, and nearly all R&B (up until '95).

Elvis' '50 stuff rocked, and he was real. Period.

Lothan said:

2 each his reach I guess, but the '50s were one of the best decades of music in America, along with the '70s...and U should take that back about Croce. He was cool.
[Edited 8/13/07 13:25pm]

Lothan said:

Don't you mean Ray Charles, Little Richard and Chuck Berry? Motown was the '60s.

jjhunsecker said:

Actually Big Mama did get royalty checks from "Hound Dog" and I assume other songs she did write (she claimed they didn't credit her and I can actually believe it). There's stories she used to come to recording labels' offices, bring out a gun and demand the staff to give her her money and they did in a hurry. One guy who hadn't know of Big Mama's conduct tried telling her to come another time for the royalty check, Big Mama picked little dude and choke the shit out of him, beat on him and cursed him out and he's screaming and crying for help. Seeing this, the staff quickly gave Big Mama the royalty check and she left just like that!

Big Mama was an OG!!! She even said after Elvis covered "Hound Dog" (with obviously different lyrics) that she would f*ck him up.