Madogma's album is going to FLOP!!!


Mariah forevahh..my rainbow girl

whatsgoingon said:

lol, I'm laughing, but it's true. Subconciously people think "If she can do it, so can I". You can't think that watching Prince or MJ because you know darn well they are rare talents, but lots of people can't relate to genius. Genius is intimidating. But no one's ever gonna be intimidated watching Madonna. She's doing it on behalf of all the no talent dreamers out there. She reflects the fantasies of her audience.

Rodya24 said:

No. The songwriters, producers and *cough* co-writers *cough* crafted some fun dance records. As soon as she changed her collaborators the music totally changed and went downhill.

Madonna's fans are absolutely right to say that her career is in much better shape than Michael's. Some are saying that he still outsells her. I'm pretty sure that's bullshit. Here in the UK (one of his biggest markets) Invincible sold well in the first week as the hardcore fans bought multiple copies, but it sunk like a lead balloon afterwards. Within a month it left the Top 40 and never returned. From what I understand the same thing happened in America and across Europe. The Number Ones did much better, but that was a compilation of past glories, which indicates to me he's joined the has been brigade. Respected for his past achievements only. One extra word on this subject: Never take an MJ fan's word on anything Michael related, especially sales. Some of these fools think Thriller sells 4 million copies a year.

However, some of Madonna's fans are also a bit on the deluded side. To seriously rate Madonna above Michael as a dancer brings dumbness to new heights. It just goes to prove; mediocrity is only allowed to thrive when the audience is lacking in sense. Madonna fans, take a bow.

midnightmover said:

Yea, Madonna is the original Spice Girl. Being a dance student may have helped her a little, and the fact that she went out of her way to be as scandalous as possible, i.e. the Sex Book, cone shapes bras and lesbian kisses with Britney, but all in all she is very similiar to Ginger Spice from The spice Girls. Who has even less talent than Madonna, but like Madonna had loads of ambition and wasn't scared of hard work. She was the mastermind behind the Spice Girls.

midnightmover said:

True. I should have qualifed that statement. *Sigh* You do realize that the Madonna brigade will come after both of us?

That being said, I am no hardcore Madonna fan (I enjoy several of her singles -- that is it), but she seems to have a great ear for what is popular at the moment.

musicismydrug said:

How old are you?

This is an adult discussion in case you didn't notice.

And this is not a Mariah Carey discussion TKS

Rodya24 said:

Let me deal with them.

midnightmover said:

And why should others take your word on MJ?

Of course, Madonna has handled her career much, much better than MJ with his. And I have no doubt she will have a blockbuster album and tour later this year.

As for the album sales, you are right, Invincible did not sell as well as his previous albums. In fact, a number of people label it a flop. But you do realize that there are markets outside of the UK, US, and Europe? That for an album released six years after his last album of new material (excluding Blood on the Dance Floor: HIStory in the Mix), it sold quite well -- almost as well as Confessions on a Dance Floor, if I am not mistaken. We could have a discussion on why Invincible did not sell more and why Number Ones did so well in particular in the UK. But, I find the subject boring. And why even bother? You see him as a has been. And perhaps you are right. But I am not here to convert people to whatever I believe in.

I also find the excessive focus on album sales to be tiresome, when there are other significant factors such as public image, respect from peers and your audience, and continual artistic growth and output. But, please do not take my words out of context. In my response to the individual who said that MJ was deperate for "ANY market," I said that his "back catalogue" -- not Invincible -- outsells that of Madonna. If you do not believe me, check out soundscan figures.

But does it matter to me if MJ outsells Madonna or Mariah Carey? Or if either of them outsells him? No. Because for me, it is the music that matters. Does the fact that Thriller is one of the best-selling albums in modern popular music enhance the sheer beauty of songs such as "Human Nature," "Billie Jean," and "The Lady In My Life"? No. So, please do not generalize me and others because you have encountered those MJ fans who care so much about his commercial achievements.
[Edited 8/12/07 7:11am]

midnightmover said:

Basically.

Rodya24 said:

I don't make wild, unsubstantiated claims like so many MJ fans.


I have no doubt MJ's back catalogue outsells Madonna's. My whole premise is that his past achievements are still respected, but in his current incarnation he's seen as a sad case. That's why The Number Ones did better than Invincible. But those back catalogue sales would have to be astronomical to balance out the sales of Music, American Life, GHSF2 and Confessions as well as Madonna's own back catalogue sales for smashes like The Immaculate Collection and Like A Prayer. There are MJ fans who not only don't realise this but also frequently lie about Invincible's sales. They were the fans I was referring to, not you. If you said nothing wrong then you don't need to be so defensive.

midnightmover said:

I think it is difficult not to be defensive, because he has a number of fans (most of whom are of my generation) who are attracted to the "King Of Pop" persona and for whom, like you pointed out, album sales are critical. I understand how you and others can get tired and contemptuous of such an attitude. Believe me, I am tired of it too. Because in the end, the question of relevance is not based on album sales alone -- a fact that some of his fans forget. And I AM a fan, one who could care less if he sells 1 or 10 million albums. I just hope that people realize that there ARE sane individuals who take pleasure in his music.

I don't believe invincible sold 10-11 million worldwide like rodney jerkins rounded it off to. 6 to 7 million is a more accurate figure because the worldwide total at the end of 2001 was 5.2 million then it sold an additional million by early 2002 leading to 2 X platinum at 2.1 units in the US and probably several thousand more copies here and there all over the world, so that's the most logical sales figure for invincible.

I haven't read this long thread. But is this a joke or what? LOL. As Teddy Riley recently stated, Michael Jackson has NOTHING to prove. The man has broken every record in musical history. Child prodigy-musical genius-living legend.
He wowed the world as a little kid and set it on fire with Thriller. So to say MJ is desperate or NEEDS another hit is laughable. LOL. You do know that Thriller, Bad AND Dangerous are among the TOP 10 SELLING ALBUMS of all times don't you? Or do you? LOL.
Oh and Madge isn't desperate either. These people are LIVING legends.

SquirrelMeat said:

Get Real! LOL. MJ's back catalog outsells Madge's 4 to 1 (and this goes for all his contemporaries - Prince, Whitney, Bruce, Janet, Mariah) The man has had to deal with an onslaught of personal problems recently, is why we haven't seen him. Okay? But in terms of popularity Madonna had a viewership of 3 mil. for her recent TV special as oppose to MJ's 30 mil. (MSG). No one can rake in the numbers & sales like MJ. You know it as well as anyone else. So STOP being jealous of MJ's popularity! Because nothing can be done about that. Heck, later this year there's gonna be a WORLDWIDE 'Thrill The World' dance off! LOL. Man hasn't dropped a record in 6 years and still he's celebrated! LOL. Learn to live with it folks, LOL.

mrsnet said:

I'm a much bigger fan of MJs work than Madonna, but facts are facts. Madonna is still valid in todays pop. No mean feat for a 49 year old woman.

MJ is nowhere to be seen. You can't rest on your back catalogue and claim to be the current king of pop.

You are trying to compare mjs historic sales and ignoring the fact that Madge still tops the charts all over the world. She doesn't need to be desperate for a hit. She still gets them.

SquirrelMeat said:

Well he doesn't have anything out currently. And he never ever needs to again if he doesn't want to because he IS MJ, the most successful artist in the history of music. And, for the record, he still tops some charts with his back catalog because he is who he is. This year in Spain, he had 3 songs in the top ten simultaneousely!!!
And if Elvis, James Brown, Aretha, etc. can maintain their titles without current hits, MJ most certainly can.
And while I love Madge, you and I both know, she is nowhere near Mike talent-wise or sales-wise. As for popularity, she's second to Michael. He IS the most famous entertainer in the world. Madge comes next. And I do love her as an artist AND as a person. But yes, facts are facts.

SquirrelMeat said:

Did you not read the previous posts? Several MJ FANS admitted that the people who are most desperate for a MJ hit are MJ FANS -- in particular those who are attracted to the King Of Pop persona. To be honest, I do not think Michael has the drive or passion that he used to have. That is the reason why I think he is not desperate. I think he is more interested in raising his children, working on soundtracks, and building amusement parks. LOL.

And you do realize that the title "King Of Pop" is just a title like "Godfather of Soul" and "King Of Rock and Roll"? Do you post on Elvis forums and complain that just because he does not have an album of new material out that his title should be revoked? Or do you post on James Brown forums and complain the same thing? While the title the "King Of Pop" has much to do with commercial success, you have got to be joking when you insist that its validity has to rest on continual world-charting success. While I think the title is stupid and vain, MJ deserves it for his work from Off The Wall on. Trust me. As a fan, I would rather that he be known as Michael Jackson than the "King of Pop." But it is the title that most associate with him.

Another thing: You do realize that Madonna started off in show business later than MJ? Since he hit it big with The Jackson 5 in 1968 and had his last number one hit in 2001 -- that would make it thirty-three years of chart-topping success. And since he scored several number ones with the re-issuing of past hits in Spain last year, let us add five more years to that. Madonna, I believe, came out in 1982 and has enjoyed immense commerical success for the last twenty-five years. So, maybe thirteen years later, we can check again to see whether or not she is continuing the same feat.

Finally, to be valid in "today's pop," I had no idea it was based on commercial success alone. What about musical influence?

BTW, I do not see Madonna as desperate for a hit. Perhaps for a number one in the US. But I am sure that she will have a blockbuster album and tour later this year no matter how she charts in America.

Rodya24 said:

I actually find titles like King of Pop and Queen of Pop laughable and superficial. Simply because "pop" means popular, so what is popular today may not necessarily be popular tomorrow, so the title it's self is meaningless. It's the main reason why every six month the media crowns a new "King of Pop" and this makes the hard core Michael Jackson fans go ballistic.

The fact that fans can hold onto such an irrelevant meaningless title, that doesn't do Michael's career any justice at all, goes to show the fans are missing the whole point of Michael Jackson and his career.
[Edited 8/13/07 2:11am]

dag said:

Madonna laughs at the whole concept of "re-invention".She was being sarcastic when she called her 2004 tour "The Re-Invention Tour".What she does is not re-invention...it's called growing and evolving....trying new things,exploring new directions.We all should be doing this in our lives.Michael could take a few lessons from Madonna when it comes to this.He's become a sad parody of himself.

whatsgoingon said:

In fact, the title has backfired on him! After the 1993 and 2005 child molestation accusations, the media now calls him "the self-proclaimed King of Pop." A lot of people forget that unlike Madonna -- the Queen of Pop -- MJ has sung and crafted timeless, classic music that are more than just fun dance records. The media, a number of fans, and the general audience often ignore the music and focus on album sales alone. Sure, MJ chased greater commercial success following Thriller, but I am sure he does not want to be known as someone who has just sold millions of albums.

Rewi said:

Spin it anyway you like,but the fact remains that it's an impressive deal for a female pop artist who is nearing 50 years old.How many other 80s pop artists could get a deal like that? And if that kinda deal makes her a "slave",I would love to be a slave like that

As for Michael Jackson....it's telling that,after the Sony contract ended,not too many other record companies came forward to offer him a new deal.He's now talking about releaing music independently,but we all know that Michael doesn't like to do anything unless it's on a grand scale.He won't be able to make it without a massive budget,massive promotion,and massive hype.

Madonna's "lapses in judgement" are pretty minor compared to being acccused twice of molesting a child,dontcha think?

Rodya24 said:

And not only that by harping on about record sales and being the "King of Pop" fans end up comparing Michael with the likes of Chris Brown, JT and Usher, people who were barely born when Off The Wall came out, and in the case of Chris Brown he wasn't even born until well after Thriller came out. I think by comparing Michael to cats like these demeans his whole career. Comparing him with Prince is different or Stevie Wonder or even Marvin Gaye but when you end having to compare him with a bunch of kids just because of a title then something has gone amiss.

Timmy84 said:

Perhaps Madonna does want to conquer the American music market again.I see nothing wrong with that.Her last few albums weren't exactly the type of music that gets played on American radio.It's about time for her to "Americanize" her music again But even if she fails in this attempt,it won't really matter in the grand scheme of things.Her albums are global hits.Warners claims that 'Confessions' sold around 14 million worldwide (I think the figure is closer to 10 million,but still...).

whatsgoingon said:

It boggles my mind how people keep on comparing MJ to Chris Brown, JT, Usher, and even Madonna. I think our conversation sums up why even the question of this thread was asked.

SoulAlive said:

Who knows? Perhaps he wants to bring back the focus on the music without the hoopla that surrounded his previous albums. At least I hope so. But I doubt he will a new album this fall or ever again. I hope he proves me wrong. Great music is great music, whether it is crafted by someone who has been accused of molesting a child (MJ) or by someone who has been accused of beating his wife (Marvin Gaye).

Rodya24 said:

Calm down dear!

You are totally contradicting yourself here. You are pointing out that it should not be based on commercial success alone, but spend half the post sprouting off about MJ commercial successes!

It seems a civil conversation is impossible on the thread because there is so much MJ "protect no matter what" syndrome going on here.

The thread didn't ask who is the more talented, or who has sold the most. Its simply asked, who is more desperate for a hit.

I say MJ, because at the moment, his career is in the toilet. Madonna is on a roll.

The only thing I'm hearing from harcore MJ fans is how he is a legend and can never be beaten etc etc

SquirrelMeat said:

Hey, this will come as a shock to you, but I could care less about his commercial successes (Is it going to impact my life if he has a hit in Spain? No.), but I do care about people not getting the facts right. I am tired of people accusing MJ fans of being nuts (that is what you are labeling me to be).

Again, as I said in a previous post (several pages ago), you seem to care a lot about the commercial successes of your favorite musicians. In fact, in quote you said that MJ was desperate for "ANY market." In response, I said that MJ had hits with the re-release of past singles in Europe and that his back catalogue was outselling that of Madonna. But, these facts are for you to contemplate. Not me. Because the fact that he sells an x number of albums is not going to enhance my pleasure in listening to his music.

And no, I do not think that MJ is never going to be "beaten." And no, I do not think the man is infallible. In fact, I have been quite vocal in stating that he does not seem to have his former drive and passion for creating music. And of course, his public image has gone down the toilet, in particular in English-speaking countries and Europe.

Again, you generalize his rather large fanbase. But, you are not even going to read this post, since you think that I am insane -- you know, "just another MJ fanatic."
[Edited 8/13/07 3:26am]

I don't think all MJ fans are insane but I notice that many of his fans always point to how many records he sold in the past...as if this can erase all the bad memories of what he has become today.Unfortunately,pop music fans have a "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" mentality.They don't care about how many copies you sold twenty years ago.They don't care how much money your 1984 world tour grossed.They only care about what you're doing right now.I'm arguing that,unlike MJ,Madonna is still doing great things in her career.She's still breaking records.Just last year,she completed the most successful tour by a female artist.Again,I repeat just last year.Twenty five years after her first hit.Everytime she tours,it's usually the biggest (or second biggest) tour of the year.I don't even have to bring up her 80s or 90s accomplishments.She's achieving great things right now.Let's be honest here...Michael hasn't really achieved very much in the past several years.