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PrintableSquirrelMeat said: WildStyle said: MJ and Madonna should never be put on the same level. One is so superior to the other that it's not even funny. It's quite obvious who that person is.
Hee-hee! The one that keeps re-inventing and selling all over the world? MJ=Genius Madonna=garbage | |
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krayzie said: SoulAlive said: To put things in perspective,let's look at where they are both at,right now: ***Madonna---getting ready to release a new CD in mid-November and launch another world tour next June....is considering a new record deal with LiveNation that will be worth $160 million....Warners has recently said that they will fight to keep her,which means that they too will offer her a generous deal to re-sign....getting ready to celebrate her 25th anniversary in the biz with a multi-disc box set next spring....MTV is planning a 2-hour Madonna special that celebrates her career,to air this fall...her last tour was the most successful tour ever,by a female artist. ***Michael Jackson---currently has no record deal....there is no release date for the new album....no tour plans....hasn't done a big tour in at least ten years.... When you think about it,Madonna really has nothing to prove.Her career is in great shape,considering how long she's been around.She doesn't have to "comeback" from a damaging scandal,or prove that she can still sellout arenas. To take it in my own perspective there were three superstars in the 80's : Prince, MJ, Madonna Now, take off the hype, the media, the fame, the scandals, the choreographers and the mega producers behind etc... Without all that your Madonna ain't shit. Period 
Without all that Prince : Great performer, dancer, singer, and Musician Without all that MJ : Great peformer/entertainer/dancer and AMAZING SINGER since he was a kid Without all that Madonna : She can't sing for saving her life, she can't dance, she can't do absolutely nothing Of course now we can talk about how Madonna sells records and how she's still a superstar But to me she's still nothing but a talenteless woman who can't sing whatsoever... Of course in my perspective... But the question is, who's more desperate for a hit, not who do you think is the most talented! I think from a musical perspective, madonna comes last. But from a commercial perspective, she comes first. . | |
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krayzie said: SquirrelMeat said: The one that keeps re-inventing and selling all over the world? MJ=Genius Madonna=garbage Disagree. I much prefer MJ to Madonna myself, but: MJ = Fallen super talent Madonna = Amazing all rounder. . | |
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SquirrelMeat said: krayzie said: MJ=Genius Madonna=garbage Disagree. I much prefer MJ to Madonna myself, but: MJ = Fallen super talent Madonna = Amazing all rounder. I repeat again MJ = GENIUS MAdonna = Garbage piece of shit It's not about agreeing with me or not. This is simply the truth. No matter how many records Madonna can sell she ain't shit. No matter what. MJ is a GENIUS. A prodgy as a child. And a Unique talent. | |
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Well the GENIUS needs to get back to work or something.
The original question WAS about who is more desperate for a hit: In terms of that question and the number of producers: MJ = Will.I.Am, Neyo, etc. Mads = Timbo, Juju Beans (Justin), Fiddy Teeths (supposedly), hasn't had a longer-lasting hit since 2000's "Music", etc. Right now, it'll have to be Madonna. She's trying to outdo Nelly Furtado.
I don't know what the hell's on MJ's radar though because we hardly hear shit so it's like he's chilling. 
I say Madonna but then again every time she works with somebody who's "big", she tends to get something out of it (Babyface, William Orbit). Could Tim bring her back? Maybe... we shall see. So I think right now these two are at a deadlock. [Edited 8/10/07 18:07pm] | |
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krayzie said: SquirrelMeat said: Disagree. I much prefer MJ to Madonna myself, but: MJ = Fallen super talent Madonna = Amazing all rounder. I repeat again MJ = GENIUS MAdonna = Garbage piece of shit It's not about agreeing with me or not. This is simply the truth. No matter how many records Madonna can sell she ain't shit. No matter what. MJ is a GENIUS. A prodgy as a child. And a Unique talent. So what you seem to be saying is: No matter how many number ones she has in her 25 year career, no matter how many times she defines fashion and trend. No matter how many times she sells out stadiums and arenas at £200 a seat..... She "ain't shit". And you want people to take your perspective seriously? Ok. No point debating with you no more! . | |
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SquirrelMeat said: krayzie said: I repeat again MJ = GENIUS MAdonna = Garbage piece of shit It's not about agreeing with me or not. This is simply the truth. No matter how many records Madonna can sell she ain't shit. No matter what. MJ is a GENIUS. A prodgy as a child. And a Unique talent. So what you seem to be saying is: No matter how many number ones she has in her 25 year career, no matter how many times she defines fashion and trend. No matter how many times she sells out stadiums and arenas at £200 a seat..... She "ain't shit". Yeah exactly  | |
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Timmy84 said: Mads = Timbo, Juju Beans (Justin), Fiddy Teeths (supposedly), hasn't had a longer-lasting hit since 2000's "Music", etc.
Thats a bit of a US perspective again. Madonna has had massive hits all over the world in the last 18 months. In fact, In the UK (the second biggest music market) she had three number ones last year alone. . | |
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avasdad said: lets face it folks the "prime" years are long behind them, but the try to stay relavent...so they hook up with the "in" people now.
For MJ looking to will i am to get him back to the promise land...sorry but i see train wreck all over it!!! Madonna hooking up with JT and "Tims"..sorry but i dont see a 50 yr old lady trying to be hip...doesn't work..... working with different people doesn't make any of them desperate....there will ALWAYS be people who disagree with anything that either of them do "we make our heroes in America only to destroy them" | |
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krayzie said: SquirrelMeat said: So what you seem to be saying is: No matter how many number ones she has in her 25 year career, no matter how many times she defines fashion and trend. No matter how many times she sells out stadiums and arenas at £200 a seat..... She "ain't shit". Yeah exactly  . | |
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SquirrelMeat said: Timmy84 said: Mads = Timbo, Juju Beans (Justin), Fiddy Teeths (supposedly), hasn't had a longer-lasting hit since 2000's "Music", etc.
Thats a bit of a US perspective again. Madonna has had massive hits all over the world in the last 18 months. In fact, In the UK (the second biggest music market) she had three number ones last year alone. Still though, I think she's looking to conquer the American market, she's doing something radically different to try to retain her US popularity. Her popularity here has dwindled somewhat. Since the release of "Music", she's only had like three top ten singles on Billboard's Hot 100, and only one of which hit number one. While "Hung Up" hit the US top ten, it was through downloads though everybody else in the world embraced it. Madonna is only doing fine American-wise with the album sales (she keeps going platinum, so good for her) and on the dance singles chart where she almost has 40 number-one dance recordings (I think she's at 37 now). But Madonna hasn't been on top 40 radio in a long minute and with the charts changing once again to airplay, she wants that airplay again, I feel, so the way I see it, she's hungry to get back on the top 40 and for a commercial artist like Madonna, I can see why she's desperate to get more top 40 hits again. I can't say much for Michael because we hardly hear anything and if we do hear something, "it's a rumor". | |
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Timmy84 said: SquirrelMeat said: Thats a bit of a US perspective again. Madonna has had massive hits all over the world in the last 18 months. In fact, In the UK (the second biggest music market) she had three number ones last year alone. Still though, I think she's looking to conquer the American market, she's doing something radically different to try to retain her US popularity. Her popularity here has dwindled somewhat. Since the release of "Music", she's only had like three top ten singles on Billboard's Hot 100, and only one of which hit number one. While "Hung Up" hit the US top ten, it was through downloads though everybody else in the world embraced it. Madonna is only doing fine American-wise with the album sales (she keeps going platinum, so good for her) and on the dance singles chart where she almost has 40 number-one dance recordings (I think she's at 37 now). But Madonna hasn't been on top 40 radio in a long minute and with the charts changing once again to airplay, she wants that airplay again, I feel, so the way I see it, she's hungry to get back on the top 40 and for a commercial artist like Madonna, I can see why she's desperate to get more top 40 hits again. I can't say much for Michael because we hardly hear anything and if we do hear something, "it's a rumor". Not bad especially considering the ageist society we live in. Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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Timmy84 said: SquirrelMeat said: Thats a bit of a US perspective again. Madonna has had massive hits all over the world in the last 18 months. In fact, In the UK (the second biggest music market) she had three number ones last year alone. Still though, I think she's looking to conquer the American market, she's doing something radically different to try to retain her US popularity. Her popularity here has dwindled somewhat. Since the release of "Music", she's only had like three top ten singles on Billboard's Hot 100, and only one of which hit number one. While "Hung Up" hit the US top ten, it was through downloads though everybody else in the world embraced it. Madonna is only doing fine American-wise with the album sales (she keeps going platinum, so good for her) and on the dance singles chart where she almost has 40 number-one dance recordings (I think she's at 37 now). But Madonna hasn't been on top 40 radio in a long minute and with the charts changing once again to airplay, she wants that airplay again, I feel, so the way I see it, she's hungry to get back on the top 40 and for a commercial artist like Madonna, I can see why she's desperate to get more top 40 hits again. I can't say much for Michael because we hardly hear anything and if we do hear something, "it's a rumor". Maybe Madge does want to conquer her home market again.... But when we talk about who is more desperate for a hit, MJ would take ANY market at the moment! . | |
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JackieBlue said: Timmy84 said: Still though, I think she's looking to conquer the American market, she's doing something radically different to try to retain her US popularity. Her popularity here has dwindled somewhat. Since the release of "Music", she's only had like three top ten singles on Billboard's Hot 100, and only one of which hit number one. While "Hung Up" hit the US top ten, it was through downloads though everybody else in the world embraced it. Madonna is only doing fine American-wise with the album sales (she keeps going platinum, so good for her) and on the dance singles chart where she almost has 40 number-one dance recordings (I think she's at 37 now). But Madonna hasn't been on top 40 radio in a long minute and with the charts changing once again to airplay, she wants that airplay again, I feel, so the way I see it, she's hungry to get back on the top 40 and for a commercial artist like Madonna, I can see why she's desperate to get more top 40 hits again. I can't say much for Michael because we hardly hear anything and if we do hear something, "it's a rumor". Not bad especially considering the ageist society we live in. Good point... also considering she'll be 49 (!) next Thursday... she still did well for herself, compared to MJ's one top ten pop hit this millennium... | |
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SquirrelMeat said: Timmy84 said: Still though, I think she's looking to conquer the American market, she's doing something radically different to try to retain her US popularity. Her popularity here has dwindled somewhat. Since the release of "Music", she's only had like three top ten singles on Billboard's Hot 100, and only one of which hit number one. While "Hung Up" hit the US top ten, it was through downloads though everybody else in the world embraced it. Madonna is only doing fine American-wise with the album sales (she keeps going platinum, so good for her) and on the dance singles chart where she almost has 40 number-one dance recordings (I think she's at 37 now). But Madonna hasn't been on top 40 radio in a long minute and with the charts changing once again to airplay, she wants that airplay again, I feel, so the way I see it, she's hungry to get back on the top 40 and for a commercial artist like Madonna, I can see why she's desperate to get more top 40 hits again. I can't say much for Michael because we hardly hear anything and if we do hear something, "it's a rumor". Maybe Madge does want to conquer her home market again.... But when we talk about who is more desperate for a hit, MJ would take ANY market at the moment! In hindsight, I can see why MJ would be desperate. Even though he has established himself longer than Madonna and Prince, it seems he's attracted to the hype and he wants to produce bigger output. It could be an artistic standpoint or a commercial disaster. It depends on what state Michael is in: one ear telling you "do something intimate" (like I, some fans here and Billy Bush have said) or "do Thriller again" (words of Will)...  | |
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I love Prince and Madge. I suppose there is strong nostalgia there having grown up on both of them to be here now and them still working, alive and healthy, looking pretty much the same, touring and putting on amazing shows, riding the highs and lows of success and failures, taking risks, no drugs, DUIs or overdoses and rehab... they're still here, doing the damn thing and very much a part of the musical landscape (at least for me).
That's what matters to me. They are still here and still making music I enjoy. [Edited 8/10/07 18:37pm] Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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SquirrelMeat said: Timmy84 said: Still though, I think she's looking to conquer the American market, she's doing something radically different to try to retain her US popularity. Her popularity here has dwindled somewhat. Since the release of "Music", she's only had like three top ten singles on Billboard's Hot 100, and only one of which hit number one. While "Hung Up" hit the US top ten, it was through downloads though everybody else in the world embraced it. Madonna is only doing fine American-wise with the album sales (she keeps going platinum, so good for her) and on the dance singles chart where she almost has 40 number-one dance recordings (I think she's at 37 now). But Madonna hasn't been on top 40 radio in a long minute and with the charts changing once again to airplay, she wants that airplay again, I feel, so the way I see it, she's hungry to get back on the top 40 and for a commercial artist like Madonna, I can see why she's desperate to get more top 40 hits again. I can't say much for Michael because we hardly hear anything and if we do hear something, "it's a rumor". Maybe Madge does want to conquer her home market again.... But when we talk about who is more desperate for a hit, MJ would take ANY market at the moment! You do realize that he had several number ones in Europe (check out Wikipedia) last year (2006) with the release of his past hits? Also, you keep going on about how there is an American bias in the discussion so far. Like I have said several times, MJ still remains huge outside of the US. Check out album sales, since commercial success seems to matter so much to you. His back catalogue always outsells that of Prince, Madonna, Mariah Carey, and Janet Jackson (not combined, of course, but when you compare his sales with that of these artists individually). Of course, he has not released a studio album of new material in six years, and not gone on a world tour in ten years. So what? In addition to clips of his singing and dancing from past tours, his catalague of music from The Jackson 5, The Jacksons, and solo career at Motown and Epic keeps me more than satisfied. Also, do you need to have your musical idols on top commercially all the time? I love Stevie Wonder, and I sure do not find him dominating the world charts with every album that he releases. Do I care? Does that make the musical experience less enjoyable? No! Also, my favorite composer of all time, Chopin, has not released anything in hundreds of years? Do I bemoan the lack of new material? No! Okay, that example is taking it a bit too far, since he has been dead for a long time, but you get my point. Also, commercial success does not necessarily equate to great music. The last time I checked, Justin Timberlake seemed to be doing well in hits and album sales. Does this fact alone make me go out and buy his CD? God no. Does his commercial success alone validate him as a great artist in my eyes. God no. With everything that I have said, of course, I would love to have new material from MJ! B-sides, unreleased tracks, you name it. But again, if he does not, his legacy as a phenomenally talented singer, dancer, entertainer, and songwriter is secure in my books. Also, is he more desperate than Madonna for a hit? I am not sure. Again, I cannot answer that until I listen to both of their albums. That being said, I doubt that MJ has the passion he used to have. I hope he proves me wrong, but if he does not release a new studio album -- I am going to keep on enjoying his music. [Edited 8/10/07 21:16pm] [Edited 8/11/07 0:03am] | |
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Timmy84 said: Well the GENIUS needs to get back to work or something.
The original question WAS about who is more desperate for a hit: In terms of that question and the number of producers: MJ = Will.I.Am, Neyo, etc. Mads = Timbo, Juju Beans (Justin), Fiddy Teeths (supposedly), hasn't had a longer-lasting hit since 2000's "Music", etc. Right now, it'll have to be Madonna. She's trying to outdo Nelly Furtado.
I don't know what the hell's on MJ's radar though because we hardly hear shit so it's like he's chilling.
I say Madonna but then again every time she works with somebody who's "big", she tends to get something out of it (Babyface, William Orbit). Could Tim bring her back? Maybe... we shall see. So I think right now these two are at a deadlock. [Edited 8/10/07 18:07pm] please remember Hung Up was #1 everywhere in the world but the US and was a the number one video on TRL for many days. You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
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These two videos best illustrate Madonna's current popularity/fame versus MJ's current popularity/fame.
Madonna - http://youtube.com/watch?v=roIHNzXiirM Michael Jackson - http://youtube.com/watch?v=wtbDkTMh-Us [Edited 8/10/07 19:51pm] | |
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DarlingDiana said: These two videos best illustrate Madonna's current popularity/fame versus MJ's current popularity/fame.
Madonna - http://youtube.com/watch?v=roIHNzXiirM Michael Jackson - http://youtube.com/watch?v=wtbDkTMh-Us
[Edited 8/10/07 19:51pm] I don't think thier popularity is being questioned but from the footage, aside from the two very different societies those airports are located in, I think Madonna's current popularity/fame is more sane and appealing. [Edited 8/10/07 20:08pm] Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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JackieBlue said: I don't think thier popularity is being questioned but from the footage, aside from the two very different societies those airports are located in, I think Madonna's current popularity/fame is more sane and appealing. seems so... http://www.youtube.com/wa...L4DFgw1cHQ | |
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JackieBlue said: DarlingDiana said: These two videos best illustrate Madonna's current popularity/fame versus MJ's current popularity/fame.
Madonna - http://youtube.com/watch?v=roIHNzXiirM Michael Jackson - http://youtube.com/watch?v=wtbDkTMh-Us
[Edited 8/10/07 19:51pm] I don't think thier popularity is being questioned but from the footage, aside from the two very different societies those airports are located in, I think Madonna's current popularity/fame is more sane and appealing. [Edited 8/10/07 20:08pm] That is an interesting choice of words: "more sane and appealing." Not sure if I agree with you, but it is your opinion and I am sure some agree with you (while others disagree). I wonder how much of his "PR issues" for lack of a better term impact how you view his popularity and fame. The reaction that he still causes among some of his fans seems similiar to what was going on in the '80s -- albeit on a smaller scale. I consider it amazing that MJ is still popular considering the fact that he has been in show business since the '60s -- in addition to the public scandals that have tarnished his public image -- in consequence alienating a number of fans in particular from the Bad era on. [Edited 8/10/07 20:42pm] [Edited 8/10/07 20:51pm] | |
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Prince and MJ are surely more desperate for a hit. | |
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ehuffnsd said: Rodya24 said: MJ, like it or not, was a child star and was, according to him, either on the road or on stage for most of his childhood, performing and churning out album after album throughout the '60s and '70s -- a time when Madonna was discovering gay discoteque, attending high school (according to Wikipedia she also received a dance scholarship to the Univeristy of Michigan -- cool), and eventually setting off to New York City. She went to UofM Ann Arbor where her mentor Christopher Flynn was a dance teacher. She then went to a dance competiton at Duke where she got a offer from Pearl Lang. She danced with her in NY and with Alvin Aley, the first white woman to dance with that company I believe. Though her cherography isn't the same as MJ's, she is a techincally better dancer and has more versality with styles of dance. A good example is the Tango from Evita and the Swing Dancing in A League of Their Own. [Edited 8/10/07 11:53am] Being a dancer, that is a joke. Who sees Madonna as a dancer? "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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ehuffnsd said: dag said: Actually, if there is one thing that I believe Madonna is talented in (besides her self-promotional genius) it is her dancing ability. I think she´s really a great dancer. But Mike is Mike. That doesn´t mean he´s better than her, but he´s created his own style, as well as being able to do tons of other styles - perfectly imitating Fred Astaire, James Brown whoever. Mike has created some "unearthly" moves that take your breat away and I don´t mean just the moonwalk. I am not a dancer so I can´t say who is technically better, i've only seen Michael do Jazz and HipHop. Madge has done those, plus various styles of Ballroom, Swing, Ballet, and Modern. I've seen Michael also do swing and tap "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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Rodya24 said: JackieBlue said: I don't think thier popularity is being questioned but from the footage, aside from the two very different societies those airports are located in, I think Madonna's current popularity/fame is more sane and appealing. [Edited 8/10/07 20:08pm] That is an interesting choice of words: "more sane and appealing." Not sure if I agree with you, but it is your opinion and I am sure some agree with you (while others disagree). I wonder how much of his "PR issues" for lack of a better term impact how you view his popularity and fame. The reaction that he still causes among some of his fans seems similiar to what was going on in the '80s -- albeit on a smaller scale. I consider it amazing that MJ is still popular considering the fact that he has been in show business since the '60s -- in addition to the public scandals that have tarnished his public image -- in consequence alienating a number of fans in particular from the Bad era on. [Edited 8/10/07 20:42pm] [Edited 8/10/07 20:51pm] I'm not disputing that MJ is still wildly popular all over the world and that the reactions to his presence is not much different than in past decades but the question wasn't who was more popular. In this particular case, his PR issues didn't enter my mind. I just simply think that Madonna's current popularity and fame--particularly as a near 50 woman--is more sane and appealing to me by comparison. That was not intended to be a jab at Michael, I just know firsthand how MJ fams can be. If I were at the place Madge is at now in every regard, I don't think I'd have the energy or tolerance to withstand that level of attention and admiration other than at a concert venue. [Edited 8/10/07 22:30pm] Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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JackieBlue said: Rodya24 said: That is an interesting choice of words: "more sane and appealing." Not sure if I agree with you, but it is your opinion and I am sure some agree with you (while others disagree). I wonder how much of his "PR issues" for lack of a better term impact how you view his popularity and fame. The reaction that he still causes among some of his fans seems similiar to what was going on in the '80s -- albeit on a smaller scale. I consider it amazing that MJ is still popular considering the fact that he has been in show business since the '60s -- in addition to the public scandals that have tarnished his public image -- in consequence alienating a number of fans in particular from the Bad era on. [Edited 8/10/07 20:42pm] [Edited 8/10/07 20:51pm] I'm not disputing that MJ is still wildly popular all over the world and that the reactions to his presence is not much different than in past decades but the question wasn't who was more popular. In this particular case, his PR issues didn't enter my mind. I just simply think that Madonna's current popularity and fame--particularly as a near 50 woman--is more sane and appealing to me by comparison. That was not intended to be a jab at Michael, I just know firsthand how MJ fams can be. If I were at the place Madge is at now in every regard, I don't think I'd have the energy or tolerance to withstand that level of attention and admiration other than at a concert venue. [Edited 8/10/07 22:30pm] I completely misread your previous post. 
I agree. If I were Madonna, I would also not want the mass hysteria that MJ seems to generate everywhere he goes. But I think he likes it. His love of the applause feeds his meglomania (anyone remember the giant statues of him during the HIStory era?). But on the other hand, I am sure it can get tiring as well.[Edited 8/11/07 1:13am] | |
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ehuffnsd said: Rewi said: The reason why Madonna is offered a $160 million deal is because that will guarantee Livenation's place as the tour promoter, and perhaps even give them the copyright to her new music, not because she's a great performer and musician... What it means that in addition to being a slave to her record company, she's also going to be bound to one concert promoter who can set the ticket prices to any level they desire. And getting that $160 million back from ticket sales alone would pretty much guarantee an extra $100 on the ticket prices for the next three tours! Michael Jackson on the other hand owns the copyrights to his own material, and can actually decide for himself what to release... Having no record deal isn't a problem (as Prince can probably verify), as the record sales are guaranteed to be millions anyway. He might not be as interested in touring as Madonna (and some of the audience wouldn't see him as a "hip" artist anyway), but that doesn't really matter from a musical point of view as his live vocals are just as "live" as Madonna's. 
It's true though that Madonna hasn't had a major scandal like MJ, but her career is littered with more or less severe lapses in judgement. Just one of the examples that springs to mind is that she released a book of naked photos in the early 90's, and is now suing an ex-boyfriend who is "damaging her reputation" by releasing naked photos from that ame period.  I can tell you've never seen Madge live, but she is live in performance. plus I don't see Madonna going in to a deal with out coming out with what she wants. and Madonna is sueing for invastion of pirvacy, because that particular set was intended for private use. Yes, you're right. I have never seen her live in concert. But I do have three cds, and I have seen the Live Aid dvd which clearly shows her lack of singing ability in 1985.
I don't doubt that Madonna is going to get what she wants, because she is a businesswoman first and foremost. She's going to get bucketloads of money one way or the other, but does that tell the world what a great artist she is? Of course not. I think you're slightly missing the point that I was trying to make... Madonna's career up until at least... 1995ish was all about sex. Sex in the videos, sex in the concerts, sex photos, sex with celebrities, and sex in the songs. MJ has had some serious issues every few years which have turned him into a joke, but Madonna's career for the first fifteen years is a joke because of her public image. And now I can get to the topic of this dicussion.
Madonna is the one out of those two more desparate to get a hit. She wants to prove her career isn't all about sex, so she hooks up with popular artists, writers and producers to make her current material and to keep her popular. That's been going on for the past fifteen years now, and it's all fine and well for a pop artist who lacks a personal direction. MJ is an artist who makes his own music the way he wants it. Even the guest writers and producers are there to supplement the sound, not to create a new one. If he was desparate for a hit, he would be trying to stay hip like Madonna. | |
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MJ can't be that desperate if he won't even release anything. I wish he was desperate. I think a musicaly desperate MJ could be a good thing. | |
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