I don't know about the rest of the world but I lived in Africa as well as America way before Thriller came out and he was very popular pre-Thriller in Africa. Infact he became quite unpopular in West Africa from Bad onwards because they saw someone who hated his African heritage. I remember hearing in Ghana or so they actually burnt his records during the Bad era!

I can understand him becoming very popular in Eastern Europe and Asia during the Bad era onwards. Those are non-black societies and his ambiguous looks would have made him more endearing to them. Infact there are quite a few fans who have confessed they wouldn't have been fans if he still had his strong, African heritage written all over his face!
[Edited 8/10/07 10:52am]

Thankfully for me, I viewed the J5 Collector site before it went kaput early last year and I have to say the Jackson 5/Jacksons were EXTREMELY popular worldwide as they were in America. Matter of fact when they first toured London, they caused such a Beatles-like sensation that they mobbed their car! It was all on the newspapers in London the next day with this big headline: JACKSONMANIA! I think that was the first time that name was uttered. Their success extended everywhere else, they even became the first black group to perform in Australia, they performed in Africa and Jamaica near the end of their Motown run and were accepted unanimously. Between 1970 and 1975, the Jackson 5 were a REALLY BIG DEAL! They were as accepted as the Supremes a decade before.

I think Michael forgets sometimes how big of a sensation he is. He wasn't just BIG by the time of "Thriller", the guy was selling massive amounts of records in the 1970s. He could've retired after releasing "Off the Wall" and be settling fabulously but of course he continued to chase the dream of stardom and sometime after "Thriller", he got lost in the cracks of his own success. I think he is to be partially blamed for all that has happened since. Because he keeps giving people promises and sometimes when things don't go wrong, his promises always don't go his way. Also he is as popular for his "antics" and the controversies and the lawsuits as he was/is for his music from years past.

"Thriller", however, seems to be the album that people set as their benchmark for success. And that's always gonna be a burden for Michael because he reached the top (55 million and selling according to the 2008 edition of Guinness Book of Records) but he's had a hard time since though he still was selling massive in Europe, he definitely had a decline in America. Touring in the US and not having the kid scandals could've helped him in those regards.

While I don’t think seeing Madonna in a leotard was shocking I don’t think the public desired to see it either. Why is re-invention or Madonna’s success in general always downplayed in particular by MJ fans, yet most have been wanting MJ to reinvent himself (or at least put on a different wig) for years.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:22am]

Thankfully for me, I viewed the J5 Collector site before it went kaput early last year and I have to say the Jackson 5/Jacksons were EXTREMELY popular worldwide as they were in America. Matter of fact when they first toured London, they caused such a Beatles-like sensation that they mobbed their car! It was all on the newspapers in London the next day with this big headline: JACKSONMANIA! I think that was the first time that name was uttered. Their success extended everywhere else, they even became the first black group to perform in Australia, they performed in Africa and Jamaica near the end of their Motown run and were accepted unanimously. Between 1970 and 1975, the Jackson 5 were a REALLY BIG DEAL! They were as accepted as the Supremes a decade before.

I think Michael forgets sometimes how big of a sensation he is. He wasn't just BIG by the time of "Thriller", the guy was selling massive amounts of records in the 1970s. He could've retired after releasing "Off the Wall" and be settling fabulously but of course he continued to chase the dream of stardom and sometime after "Thriller", he got lost in the cracks of his own success. I think he is to be partially blamed for all that has happened since. Because he keeps giving people promises and sometimes when things don't go wrong, his promises always don't go his way. Also he is as popular for his "antics" and the controversies and the lawsuits as he was/is for his music from years past.

"Thriller", however, seems to be the album that people set as their benchmark for success. And that's always gonna be a burden for Michael because he reached the top (55 million and selling according to the 2008 edition of Guinness Book of Records) but he's had a hard time since though he still was selling massive in Europe, he definitely had a decline in America. Touring in the US and not having the kid scandals could've helped him in those regards.

Yeah, true, I´d love him to do something about the hair and looks, but not putting this whole show of this-is-the-new-me on as she does. I just don´t find it genuine.


What I like about Mike is that he does what he wants to, while Madonna seems to be "everywhere". Like that Live Aid performance, (I have to confess though that I don´t follow her round, so I might have missed something), but I have never seen her artistically to fight for the environment or do anything. While with MJ, on each album you can find songs with this concern (We are the world, Man In the Mirror, Heal the World, Cry etc.) Even though some ppl ridicule that, I believe he really cares. I am not sure Madonna does. I saw it more as a commercial move on her part than something genuine.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:31am]

Well, Madonna is still reaching number one all over the world, selling out concerts everyewhere.

MJ could only dream of her success now.

Out of the big 80s 4, MJ, Prince, Madonna and Bruce. Madonna won,

The others did their own thing, but she was the only one to remain on top for 20 years.

But The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons were never big in Asian countries or eastern Europe, were they? In fact, I am generalizing too much with "Asia," "Africa," "eastern Europe," since the first two are continents with dozens of countries. LOL. What I am trying to say is that, it was with Thriller and on that Michael Jackson became a global icon and the face of American (and Western) music in particular in the years before the end of the Cold War and the fall of communism -- well, at least in eastern Europe.

Yeah, true, I´d love him to do something about the hair and looks, but not putting this whole show of this-is-the-new-me on as she does. I just don´t find it genuine.


What I like about Mike is that he does what he wants to, while Madonna seems to be "everywhere". Like that Live Aid performance, (I have to confess though that I don´t follow her round, so I might have missed something), but I have never seen her artistically to fight for the environment or do anything. While with MJ, on each album you can find songs with this concern (We are the world, Man In the Mirror, Heal the World, Cry etc.) Even though some ppl ridicule that, I believe he really cares. I am not sure Madonna does. I saw it more as a commercial move on her part than something genuine.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:31am]

But The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons were never big in Asian countries or eastern Europe, were they? In fact, I am generalizing too much with "Asia," "Africa," "eastern Europe," since the first two are continents with dozens of countries. LOL. What I am trying to say is that, it was with Thriller and on that Michael Jackson became a global icon and the face of American (and Western) music in particular in the years before the end of the Cold War and the fall of communism -- well, at least in eastern Europe.

MJ, like it or not, was a child star and was, according to him, either on the road or on stage for most of his childhood, performing and churning out album after album throughout the '60s and '70s -- a time when Madonna was discovering gay discoteque, attending high school (according to Wikipedia she also received a dance scholarship to the Univeristy of Michigan -- cool), and eventually setting off to New York City.

Okay, Dag, I have a hard time understanding you here because on the one hand you’re saying you haven’t seen Madonna artistically fighting for anything but yet she was at Live Aid and World Aid or whatever and she’s been involved in doing stuff for Africa long before she attempted to adopt David. So are you saying that because she doesn’t record songs like Heal the World that she doesn’t care?

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. Even if she doesn’t sing about it she’s certainly spoken to various topics concerning global plight.

But I digress…the fact that Madonna does do these fund and awareness raising concerts make me like her more. The fact that she’ll do MTV or a Gap ad or show up at a party makes me like her more because I don’t feel that she’s so far removed as an icon that she won’t emerge to be seen by or mix with the general public.

Michael records songs and he has done quite a bit away from music to show that he cares. One difference is, a lot of his efforts don’t go over so well for one reason or another. Anyone can write a song and sing about the earth and I’m certainly not trying to disregard those recordings but it’s another thing to get out there and do. They’ve both done it on some level in their own way.

Would you say Prince is everywhere? He may not do the global concerts but he does small gigs, throws parties, tours, goes to ball games and fashion shows. He’s sorta ‘everywhere’ too. Why is that a bad thing?
[Edited 8/10/07 11:46am]

The Jacksons were huge in Asia actually. They toured all over Japan - which was really the only place most western artists went anyways (Wham! were the first to tour China, I think) and I think their performances at Tokyo and whatever big city there were sold out. To undermine what the Jacksons did overall in the U.S. and all over the world IMO would be to undermine what Michael later did in his solo career because Europe always were tolerable to black performers. So while they didn't have the "massive" success Mike achieved after leaving them, they still did amazingly well outside of America. The Jacksons were probably the second or third black group to be widely accepted by everybody.

She went to UofM Ann Arbor where her mentor Christopher Flynn was a dance teacher. She then went to a dance competiton at Duke where she got a offer from Pearl Lang.

She danced with her in NY and with Alvin Aley, the first white woman to dance with that company I believe. Though her cherography isn't the same as MJ's, she is a techincally better dancer and has more versality with styles of dance. A good example is the Tango from Evita and the Swing Dancing in A League of Their Own.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:53am]

She went to UofM Ann Arbor where her mentor Christopher Flynn was a dance teacher. She then went to a dance competiton at Duke where she got a offer from Pearl Lang.

She danced with her in NY and with Alvin Aley, the first white woman to dance with that company I believe. Though her cherography isn't the same as MJ's, she is a techincally better dancer and has more versality with styles of dance. A good example is the Tango from Evita and the Swing Dancing in A League of Their Own.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:53am]

Let's not forget the Millions of Dollars spent for AIDS. She is a major sponsor of the LA AIDS Walk and LA AIDS Danceathon.

She has had safer sex messages in her concerts dating back to the Madison Square Performance of the Virgin Tour in 1985.

Is major donor of AmFar, the first celebrity to hold a benifit concert for AIDS, the aforementioned performance of the Virign Tour,

The new Raising Malawi Foundation, her involvement in the Clinton Foundation, Live Aid, Live 8, Live Earth and countless of other AIDS events.

Okay, Dag, I have a hard time understanding you here because on the one hand you’re saying you haven’t seen Madonna artistically fighting for anything but yet she was at Live Aid and World Aid or whatever and she’s been involved in doing stuff for Africa long before she attempted to adopt David. So are you saying that because she doesn’t record songs like Heal the World that she doesn’t care?

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. Even if she doesn’t sing about it she’s certainly spoken to various topics concerning global plight.

But I digress…the fact that Madonna does do these fund and awareness raising concerts make me like her more. The fact that she’ll do MTV or a Gap ad or show up at a party makes me like her more because I don’t feel that she’s so far removed as an icon that she won’t emerge to be seen by or mix with the general public.

Michael records songs and he has done quite a bit away from music to show that he cares. One difference is, a lot of his efforts don’t go over so well for one reason or another. Anyone can write a song and sing about the earth and I’m certainly not trying to disregard those recordings but it’s another thing to get out there and do. They’ve both done it on some level in their own way.

Would you say Prince is everywhere? He may not do the global concerts but he does small gigs, throws parties, tours, goes to ball games and fashion shows. He’s sorta ‘everywhere’ too. Why is that a bad thing?
[Edited 8/10/07 11:46am]

But, when you say that "The Jacksons were huge in Asia," are you equating Asia with Japan?

Of course, I agree with you that his work with The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons were pivotal to his success as a solo artist. But, I am trying to argue (quite inarticulately, now that I think of it) that he achieved his global iconic status with Thriller on -- that he reached more nationalities and cultures than any other solo artist in modern popular music with Thriller, and his Bad, Dangerous, and HIStory tours -- all possible, of course, through the achievements of The Jacksons and other black artists.

I didn´t know that. That makes her a "little" more genuine to me.

Wow! I never knew this. My respect for this woman keeps on growing. While I am sure MJ and Madonna fans will bicker about who is the more technically proficient dancer, I am sure that Madonna does not get the credit she deserves as a dancer.

Madge lost alot of her friends from the early days in NY and her mentor Christopher Flynn who pushed her to leave Detroit for NY to AIDS. She's mostly very private about her donations and doesn't make a big deal about it. However it is a very important issue to her.

Actually, if there is one thing that I believe Madonna is talented in (besides her self-promotional genius) it is her dancing ability. I think she´s really a great dancer.

But Mike is Mike. That doesn´t mean he´s better than her, but he´s created his own style, as well as being able to do tons of other styles - perfectly imitating Fred Astaire, James Brown whoever. Mike has created some "unearthly" moves that take your breat away and I don´t mean just the moonwalk.

I am not a dancer so I can´t say who is technically better,

Wow! I never knew this. My respect for this woman keeps on growing. While I am sure MJ and Madonna fans will bicker about who is the more technically proficient dancer, I am sure that Madonna does not get the credit she deserves as a dancer.

Well, he did reached global status with "Off the Wall". If you checked out his awards pages on his sites, they always have "Off the Wall" winning some award in Finland, Poland, Brazil, etc. I mean it's there in black and white. The start of his real global success, I guess, was with the "Off the Wall" album. The Jacksons did have a popular global tour with their "Destiny" tour in parts of Europe and no I'm not actually equating Japan with Asia, I'm just saying in terms of the liable situations surrounding Asia at the time, Japan was the biggest country in the Asian continent and I think that a lot of the western-based performers performed there.

i've only seen Michael do Jazz and HipHop.

Madge has done those, plus various styles of Ballroom, Swing, Ballet, and Modern.

I don´t know what styles are these. She has studied ballet, right? So she should be able to do it.
I can´t name the styles that Mike has done, but he just seems pretty versatile to me. From what I´ve seen, it seems he can do pretty much anything. You know, you can´t really convince an MJ fan (=me) that Mike´s not the best dancer.

Yeah, true, I´d love him to do something about the hair and looks, but not putting this whole show of this-is-the-new-me on as she does. I just don´t find it genuine.


What I like about Mike is that he does what he wants to, while Madonna seems to be "everywhere". Like that Live Aid performance, (I have to confess though that I don´t follow her round, so I might have missed something), but I have never seen her artistically to fight for the environment or do anything. While with MJ, on each album you can find songs with this concern (We are the world, Man In the Mirror, Heal the World, Cry etc.) Even though some ppl ridicule that, I believe he really cares. I am not sure Madonna does. I saw it more as a commercial move on her part than something genuine.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:31am]

Great examples are Swing Dance from A League of Their Own.

Tango from Evita during Buenoes Aries and the Waltz in Waltz for Che and Evita

The Tango during Die Another Day of the RIT.

Mike doesn't do anything outside of Jazz or hiphop.