lilgish said:

Me too. I remember how driven he was following the 1993 accusation. For me HIStory is his Plastic Ono Band. And I wish he would again produce something along those lines without worrying about reliving his former commercial glories.

Rodya24 said:

I have to think about that one. Primal Scream vs Plastic Scream. I like a good portion of history, but it's still not organic enough for me to compare it to something as cathartic as Mother. Earth Song has that feel and is a classic song. .....

I can see why you think mj's best days are far behind him despite being a huge fan, but to say that about Madonna is laughable when confessions was like the biggest seller(or one of them) last year, and she broke records with her highest grossing tour of her career. I don't know about the US, but in Canada, Madonna mania was everywhere and you couldn't get away from it. No matter what store you walked into, someone was playing the confessions album or tracks from it and I still hear them occasionally.

I agree titles like candy shop and la la are laughable though. I can't wait to hear the result, I'm sure it'll be better than it looks right now, cause madonna has never disappointed me with her music.

I think they both want to have hits but Madonna has the drive for it and never stops working, while michael's breaks are too long and hooking up with will.i.am of all people seems desperate. Madonna seems to be making music she wants to make, but I don't know if I could say the same for michael anymore.

I sometimes wonder if the constant comparisons between the two are valid. While both were born in August 1958 in the Midwest, where each grew up in a low-to-middle-income household, and enjoyed their greatest commercial success (and achieved their cultural iconic status) in the 1980s as part of the Big Three along with Prince, I think the comparisons stop there.

MJ, like it or not, was a child star and was, according to him, either on the road or on stage for most of his childhood, performing and churning out album after album throughout the '60s and '70s -- a time when Madonna was discovering gay discoteque, attending high school (according to Wikipedia she also received a dance scholarship to the Univeristy of Michigan -- cool), and eventually setting off to New York City.

And watching clips of MJ performing and singing during this period -- wow! I mean, he had soul! He was a natural. Already a household name in the US before the success of Off The Wall and Thriller.

I think for a lot of people of my generation, his solo career in the '80s and '90s overshadows so much of his work in the '60s and '70s, which is a shame. There is a tendency to write off MJ and his brothers as products of the bubblegum factory. One could argue that The Jackson 5 and The Jackons influenced even Prince!

Alphastreet is right. One cannot laugh off the continuing success that Madonna has enjoyed and earned in the past couple of years following American Life. She deserves it. All the power to her. It is encouraging to see someone over forty on MTV and producing one hit record after another. I will take her over Britney Spears any day.
[Edited 8/10/07 9:48am]

I know mj was huge in the 70's with his brothers and I have and love most of the material, but I can't help but wish that michael the solo artist was still active. Madonna still amazes me and I'm always happy for her success and feel like her music is getting better with time, but I can't help but wish michael was also still active like she is.

SoulAlive said:

Her career says it all.

But personally, I don’t think Madonna is desperate at all. She’s always trying different things or producers. Working with Timbaland may not be a big hit but in a few years it could just be one of her albums that didn’t go over so well in large list of albums that did. She just came off of COAD. She doesn't necessarily need to have a hit at all. She's just out there doing what she wants whether it be with Timbaland or whoever but at least she's taking chances and putting out material.
[Edited 8/10/07 10:00am]

I don't think we'll see Michael's new album until 2008. We don't anything about it because his bitch ass ain't talking

bboy87 said:

the only bitch ass that talks is raymone, and she talks a lot of shit

A question for the more casual and ex-fans of MJ: If it weren't for the early years of Michael career, and when I say early years I include the J5/Jacksons up until Thriller, would you care about MJ at all today? Would you see him as being relevant at all to modern pop music?

I know the reason why I still care and want to know what happening to Michael is because of those early years. If Michael career was base on the Bad to Invincible eras I wouldn't give a toss about him. I think the reason why there is still some interest in him to a certain extent and a lot of disappointment in him is because too many people still remember those early years between 1969 and the mid 80s. And it's those years that made him a legend artistically. The subsequent years his more famous for his behaviour and being in the tabloids for all the wrong reasons.

alphastreet said:

I don't have a problem with her. My only problem is they need to let fans know what the hell is going on. The album, it seems, is halfway finished and should be out in 2008.

Hopefully when he's done with these court cases he has going now, we'll see something.

I actually want more unreleased material from the 1978-1989 period.

I also wish he was much more active. Come on, only six solo studio albums (including the second-half of HIStory and excluding compilations, the remix album, guest appearances, and production and songwriting work on other albums in the '80s) in the past twenty eight years!

But I keep bringing up his solo work at Motown and work with The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons, because there is so much there, as you are aware. This is in combination with his six studio albums at Epic and the Victory, Bad, Dangerous, HIStory tours (in addition to the "MJ and Friends" concerts in the late '90s). Before the release of Invincible, MJ was quoted as saying that Invincible would be his last studio album. I think he is interested in doing soundtracks and building amusement parks LOL than touring and expanding his catalogue. Who knows for sure, though? I hope he proves me wrong. If not, I know I will continue to enjoy his awesome catalogue of music. Along with David Bowie, Prince, and John Lennon, MJ still remains my favorite male popular musician.

Rodya24 said:

Rodya, I'm going to send you some music. Orgnote me

whatsgoingon said:

Me personally, I wish Mike can forget about making big performances and just do something that will shock people in a GREAT way musically again. Somehow, he hasn't been able to do that in sixteen years. I wish he could again... if his heart is still in it.

bboy87 said:

The court cases have indeed hinder his career a lot. But why it seems that some artists could put out material even during court cases while it always seems like Michael's back in square one whenever a case comes up. You can nix the "King of Pop" label and call him the "king of lawsuits" and shit.

And stuff from 1978-1989 that I never heard of it would be nice indeed.

IMO, I think he knows he could do it, it's the issue of people accepting it. There have been reports that he's been in talks to release the album on this label or that label, but he's nervous for various reasons

Hopefully he gets back on the scene soon, because alot of people miss him

whatsgoingon said:

Well, I think the question will differ based on the age group of the "more casual and ex-fans of MJ." It seems to me (this is just my observation) that a lot of the people who grew up with his music are disappointed in his post-Thriller career because he lost his "soul." But one cannot underestimate the legions of fans who grew up with post-Thriller music who still see him as being relevant to modern popular music.

Also, I think it is a testament to the strength of his solo work at Motown, with The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons, and Off The Wall and Thriller, that you and many others of your generation (I am assuming people who were born in the '50s, '60s, and '70s) still care or hope for better things. Few other musician could claim such a long following or bitterness amongst his fans and ex-fans.
[Edited 8/10/07 10:25am]
[Edited 8/10/07 10:48am]

whatsgoingon said:

Hmm, I think that’s a good question. I think if it weren’t for pre-Thriller, no I wouldn’t care or at least not as much as I do. First of all I probably would have been turned off from Bad with that cover. Mazerati had come and gone so I was no longer with that look from new acts

Still even if I had only come in on Thriller I might be over him because he doesn’t produce enough. The only person I take this sort of span between albums from is Sade but she’s an entirely different sort of artist. Other than that, I lose interest and move on especially when between albums there’s nothing but personal drama and legal issues going on. When Sade lays low, she lays low.
[Edited 8/10/07 10:29am]

Another thing: Someone mentioned sometime ago how like The Beatles for the UK in the '60s, MJ was America's greatest musical export from the Thriller to the Dangerous era. He was the face of American (and to an extent Western) popular music for countless people in eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, and developing Asian and African countries. I mean, few even knew about his work with The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons. Even today, outside of the US and a couple of English-speaking countries, the music of The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons remains unfamiliar in comparison to such songs as "Billie Jean," "Beat It," "Bad," "Black or White," "Earth Song," "Stranger in Moscow," "You Rock My World," etc.
[Edited 8/10/07 10:41am]

Rodya24 said:

I don't know about the rest of the world but I lived in Africa as well as America way before Thriller came out and he was very popular pre-Thriller in Africa. Infact he became quite unpopular in West Africa from Bad onwards because they saw someone who hated his African heritage. I remember hearing in Ghana or so they actually burnt his records during the Bad era!

I can understand him becoming very popular in Eastern Europe and Asia during the Bad era onwards. Those are non-black societies and his ambiguous looks would have made him more endearing to them. Infact there are quite a few fans who have confessed they wouldn't have been fans if he still had his strong, African heritage written all over his face!
[Edited 8/10/07 10:52am]

whatsgoingon said:

you know how I asked you if you're kemi from the KOP board and you denied it? I think you really are, because she also grew up in Africa and then moved to Europe. She also makes similar typos to yours and has very similar opinions(though you justified that for me already)

alphastreet said:

Well, I didn't grow up in Africa I just spent about 6 months there when my father was working out there. And neither am I living in Europe, although I have been there.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:03am]

whatsgoingon said:

The transformation that Michael went through is quite dramatic but the blow was softened because it was over several years. I can definitely understand him receiving some backlash. And as I always say, I have a hard time believing if any other artist underwent the same thing, die-hard MJ fams wouldn't be so tolerant toward them.

SquirrelMeat said:

Madonna has kept her success through her willingness to sell her identity according to what is being desired by the public or what could shock ppl to keep her publicity. She calls it "re-invention", whatever. I think you could call that being desperate.

Anyways,I don´t see any of her recent albums as being astonishingly succesful.

Mike´s despair might be seen in his perfectionism, probably. Which one of these despairs is bigger? I don´t know.

DarlingDiana said:

Poor thing!

"Nothing comes to dreamers but dreams!"

whatsgoingon said:

I think he is still popular in Zimbabawe and South Africa. LOL.

But, during the Thriller era, before MJ was diagnosed with vitiligo and hence, the skin-color change noticeable during the Bad era, he was popular in Korea. I mean, my dad who is oblivious to most popular music, Korean, Japanese, or American, loved (and still loves) "Beat It" and "Human Nature." MJ was that big. According to him, you could not escape Thriller. He and his friends who loved MJ had no problem with the fact that he was black. In fact, my dad bought Off The Wall, with the picture of MJ with his pre-plastic surgery nose -- and had a problem with the fact that he (obviously) had a nose job!

I am sure there are fans of his in various Asian and eastern European countries who became fans because of his "ambigious looks." But one would be generalizing to an extreme to describe all of his Asian and eastern European fans as lovers of his non-African looks. In particular in Korea, ever since the American military presence on the peninsula following WWII, there has been a love and hate relationship with Eurocentric beauty. In fact, I am not alone in lamenting the transformation of MJ throughout the years. Strangely, he is the physical embodiment of insecurities among many Koreans about their nose. Believe it or not, there has been condemnation of his excesive plastic surgeries. But again, we are not constantly exposed to his tabloid-esque lifestyle or court dramas because the mainstream media could care less, unless MJ comes here for a concert (the last time, I think, was 1999) or releases a new album. In the end, he is seen as an eccentric genius who is appreciated for his music and performance.

Also, the implied racism that you associated amongst his eastern European and Asian fans (which again, is too much of a generalization) does not diminish the fact that he is still seen as being relevant to modern popular music. Are Koreans, Japanese, Czechs, Saudi Arabians, etc. less "true" fans than those who followed him from The Jackson 5 on? I think not. In the end, it is all about the music. His music from Thriller to Invincible matters to a lot of people.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:31am]

dag said:

While I don’t think seeing Madonna in a leotard was shocking I don’t think the public desired to see it either. Why is re-invention or Madonna’s success in general always downplayed in particular by MJ fans, yet most have been wanting MJ to reinvent himself (or at least put on a different wig) for years.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:22am]

whatsgoingon said:

Thankfully for me, I viewed the J5 Collector site before it went kaput early last year and I have to say the Jackson 5/Jacksons were EXTREMELY popular worldwide as they were in America. Matter of fact when they first toured London, they caused such a Beatles-like sensation that they mobbed their car! It was all on the newspapers in London the next day with this big headline: JACKSONMANIA! I think that was the first time that name was uttered. Their success extended everywhere else, they even became the first black group to perform in Australia, they performed in Africa and Jamaica near the end of their Motown run and were accepted unanimously. Between 1970 and 1975, the Jackson 5 were a REALLY BIG DEAL! They were as accepted as the Supremes a decade before.

I think Michael forgets sometimes how big of a sensation he is. He wasn't just BIG by the time of "Thriller", the guy was selling massive amounts of records in the 1970s. He could've retired after releasing "Off the Wall" and be settling fabulously but of course he continued to chase the dream of stardom and sometime after "Thriller", he got lost in the cracks of his own success. I think he is to be partially blamed for all that has happened since. Because he keeps giving people promises and sometimes when things go awry, his promises always don't go his way. Also he is as popular for his "antics" and the controversies and the lawsuits as he was/is for his music from years past.

"Thriller", however, seems to be the album that people set as their benchmark for success. And that's always gonna be a burden for Michael because he reached the top (55 million and selling according to the 2008 edition of Guinness Book of Records) but he's had a hard time since though he still was selling massive in Europe, he definitely had a decline in America. Touring in the US and not having the kid scandals could've helped him in those regards.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:33am]

JackieBlue said:

Yeah, true, I´d love him to do something about the hair and looks, but not putting this whole show of this-is-the-new-me on as she does. I just don´t find it genuine.


What I like about Mike is that he does what he wants to, while Madonna seems to be "everywhere". Like that Live Aid performance, (I have to confess though that I don´t follow her round, so I might have missed something), but I have never seen her artistically to fight for the environment or do anything. While with MJ, on each album you can find songs with this concern (We are the world, Man In the Mirror, Heal the World, Cry etc.) Even though some ppl ridicule that, I believe he really cares. I am not sure Madonna does. I saw it more as a commercial move on her part than something genuine.
[Edited 8/10/07 11:31am]

JackieBlue said:

Michael can not reinvent his image anymore than he has,unless he goes for the whole blue-eye/blonde look. The other alternative is going "home", allowing his hair to get nappy again, spray on some tan or stop his weekly "treatments" then he would have gone full circle.

As for his desperation for a hit, well I don't think he is desperate for anything to do with him working on his voice or him performing on stage. However, I do believe he has an addiction to the hype and hysteria that surrounds him, and for that alone he will NOT announce his retirement even though he should.
[Edited 8/12/07 5:13am]

Timmy84 said:

But The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons were never big in Asian countries or eastern Europe, were they? In fact, I am generalizing too much with "Asia," "Africa," "eastern Europe," since the first two are continents with dozens of countries. LOL. What I am trying to say is that, it was with Thriller and on that Michael Jackson became a global icon and the face of American (and Western) music in particular in the years before the end of the Cold War and the fall of communism -- well, at least in eastern Europe.