Soul Alive, why do you have such a grudge against MJ? Give the guy a break and the respect that he deserves, just take a look at what he has achieved during his carear, that will never be matched. You sound very bitter for some reason.

What has that police picture got to do with his music?

And as for the question, obviously MJ is the one who needs a hit more.
[Edited 8/27/07 7:53am]

SquirrelMeat said:

I disagree. I'm sure when Michael Jackson releases his next album it will be more artistically and commercially more successful than Madonna's.

Michael Jackson was still extreamly successful in the 1990's when Madonna was flopping with Erotica and Bedtime stories, and era Madonna fans and the media seem to have chosen to forget.

PR wise in the media, Michael Jackson has had a very hard time mainly in the USA since 1993. But he's remained at the top of the music business far longer than Madonna. Where Michael Jackson has been as successful artist since 1969 with The Jackson 5, and he released his first solo single in 1971.

Michael Jackson has 15yrs more success than Madonna. So regardless of the fact Michael Jackson's flop album Invincible (which isn't a great album) sold 8 million + (more than Justin Timberlake's successful Justified album), and only 2 singles were released from it and it received very little promotion from both Sony and Michael Jackson.

Your also missing the point, the fact Michael Jackson hasn't released an album since 2001 and hasn't toured since the mid 1990's. And for most of the 2001's his time has been taken up by various legal/court issues. It's a bit obvious Michael Jackson had more important things to concentrate on over the last few years, such as a criminal trial that took up 2yrs of his life.

Whatever Michael Jackson does will be better and more successful than anything Madonna does.

Also although Madonna, is chart and sales wise more successful than Prince. He always has and always have more crediblity than Madonna. You choose to forget than Prince opted out mainstream commercial promotion and success when he left Warner Bros, and when Prince left Madonna was at a point in her career were she was no longer a big deal after flopping with Erotcia and the public bored of her shock tactics. Because not only was there a backlash against Michael Jackson during that period but also one against Madonna which she didn't recover from commercially until 1998. ie from 1992-97 where when Madonna wasn't such as successful artist.

Michael Jackson obviously needs a hit more than Madonna. And I'm sure he will have a huge his song. His influence on music, singing, dancing and videos is far bigger than Madonna's.

Michael Jackson, Prince and Madonna were the biggest stars of the 1980's period. But talent wise Madonna isn't fit to mentioned with natural geniuses like Michael Jackson and Prince. Madonna works very hard, and she's always on the look out for the right producers and songwriters for hits, but she's a pure product, even her so called shock tactics seem contrived.

Isolar said:

True, I guess it would be considered her 'low point' but she still had a decent amount of success.

In that 'backlash' period, the Girlie Show was a complete sell-out worldwide, Bedtime Stories sold 2.5m in the US, the Something To Remember compilation sold 2.2m in the US. The Evita film and soundtrack were very successful worldwide (11m soundtrack sales and $140m at the box office), she won a Golden Globe for herself and helped win an Oscar for someone else, she launched a record label which helped shift 25m copies of Alanis' Jagged Little Pill, and of course she had Lourdes, which naturally took her out of the spotlight for a bit.

It shouldn't really be forgotten that the 'Sex' book backlash was mostly media led - the book itself was a massive success - it sold out all 1.5m copies of the US first pressing in three days and around the world the remaining 5.5m copies also sold within days of going onsale. That's 7m copies of something costing £25/$50 - making it the most successful 'coffee-table' book of all time. If that's "failure"... well, bring it on. LOL.

Why do so many people on both sides of the argument suffer from selective memories? Here's an MJ fan talking about people forgetting Madonna's mid 90s slump, then going on to say MJ has been succesful since 1969, conveniently forgetting to mention that for most of the 70s Michael was in a slump of his own. Check out the sales figures for Forever Michael or Music and Me. You'll see they were bigger flops than anything Madonna's ever released. It's also ridiculous to imply he's still succesful now. Even the reissues his fans are bragging about flopped outside of Spain despite massive promotion. Compare how well Elvis's reissues did and Jacko's performance will soon be put into perspective. And of course what sane person gives a shit about reissues anyway? It just proves the point that he's a has been. The only other guy who's reissuing singles has been dead for 30 years.

Both Michael Jackson and Madonna fanatics: stop caring about whether or not Michael Jackson or Madonna is selling one million or ten million albums. Both have had commercial slumps (although compared to a number of other artists neither has had a slump) in their respective careers. Both have had commercial successes.

Listen to their music. Watch their performances. Their music and performance are what we should be talking about, not record and concert sales. Both Michael Jackson and Madonna fanatics are at fault here, including me.

Who cares whether or not Michael Jackson had a commercial slump in the first half of the '70s, and whether or not Madonna had a commercial slump in the first half of the '90s? Both have sold more albums and singles than most other artists in modern popular music.

Whether or not one is a has-been, or the other is a no-talent, both have a large catalog of music to talk about.
[Edited 8/27/07 11:53am]

midnightmover said:

Why do you say 'why do many people on both sides of the argument suffer from selective memories' and then yourself select MJ to have a dig at?

I don't think its fair to say for most of the 70's MJ was in a slump when along with the jacksons he sold over 100 million singles/albums.

As for the MJ single re-issues in 2006. I dont think you can compare them to elvis' reissues because at the time MJ released 3 greatest hits albums (number ones 2003, ultimate collection 2004, essential michael jackson 2005. Many people at the time bought these as two of them only cost £10 each. So why bother buying all the singles sepertly for £5 for a total cost of £100 when u can buy the same songs for £10. Many MJ fans didnt even bother with it. But even now MJ's greatest hits albums are selling very well which proves the format of release is very important.

kash said:

Because I've already blasted the Madonna fans in this thread for their selective memories. Now it's your turn.


Disingenuous to the max. Let's consider the facts. Tell me if you disagree with any of this. MJ's two mid 70s solo albums were 100%, 24 carrot flops. No ifs or buts. They were flops. The last Jackson 5 albums at Motown were also flops. No ifs or buts. They were total flops. Joyful Jukebox Music anyone? When they left Motown, Berry Gordy didn't even make an effort to keep them. CBS President Walter Yetnikof was also lukewarm about signing them. The last he heard of Michael he was "singing some love song about a rat". He couldn't understand why his A&R man even wanted them. Their first CBS album was a modest success only compared to their Motown turkeys. Their next album was another disappointment. It wasn't until 1978's Destiny that they finally got back on top. That's the reality of the situation, so to say that Madonna had a slump in the 90s while Michael's enjoyed 38 years of non stop success is misleading.

It just goes to show how very, very few people don't let their biases get in the way of telling the facts. Fortunately you've got me here to keep both sides in check. Although to be honest most of the time I can't be bothered and I just let it slide. Still, it's always nice to drop in every now and then and force reality down some unsuspecting zealot's throat.
[Edited 8/28/07 6:58am]
[Edited 8/28/07 7:02am]
[Edited 8/28/07 7:02am]

Zink said:

No,I don't have a grudge against MJ And I'm not one of those annoying "haters" who post negative comments just to piss off his fans.To the contrary.I've been a fan since 1974.That was when my uncle gave me a copy of The Jackson Five's Greatest Hits.'Off The Wall' is one of my Top 10 favorite albums of all time and I still listen to it regularly.During the 'Thriller' days,I used to lip-synch "Billie Jean" in the mirror,trying my best to dance just like him,lol.I failed miserably.

I just think alot of his fans are in denial.Michael used to be the greatest pop artist on the planet,but those days are long gone.As a longtime fan,I take no pleasure in saying that.I'm not bitter,just honest.

stereoboy said:

It should also be noted that,during her so-called "mid-90s slump",she had the biggest hit single of her career,"Take A Bow",which was Number One for several weeks.Then she went on to 'Evita',which is considered a career highlight for her.In fact,I don't even consider 'Ray Of Light'---which won several Grammys and became a huge critical and commercial success---to be a "comeback",since she never really had a drastic decline in the first place.

SoulAlive said:

I never understood back then why they were calling ray of light a comeback when she hadn't really disappeared and was still doing her thing b/t erotica and ray of light. I guess it depends on where in the world you live when it comes to madonna's popularity. North of the US, she's still very popular and seemed it too during bedtime stories and evita. It may have not been the same as the 80's, but people who general were fans of r&b, hip hop and dance music liked take a bow and secret I found. I wasn't feeling the whole Evita thing though I thought it was a great role to have, and she had appealed to the adult contemporary audience with Don't Cry For Me Argentina, because I do remember older people knowing that song(could have been cause of being a remake too though)

SoulAlive said:

I think a number of those who are in "denial" are people who are in their teens. It is not surprising considering that these people have never seen Michael Jackson when he was at his peak. Then there are those who are interested in his personal life and songs such as "Heal The World" and "Thriller" -- the ones who deserve the title "fanatic." Also, there are a number of fanatics for whom album and single sales matter the most -- even more so than the music itself.

Others, I think, are more realistic, and continue to appreciate his music and performance. There is nothing wrong with that. There are those who prefer his solo work at Motown, work with The Jackson 5 and The Jacksons, Off The Wall, and parts of Thriller; those who prefer his post-Thriller work; and those who appreciate the entire span of his career from the late '60s to parts of Invincible. Again, there is nothing wrong with that.

To be honest, I would love to hear unreleased tracks, b-sides, demos, unfinished tracks, etc. from the '60s to '00s. If Michael Jackson decides to channel his creativity through music again, I, for one, will support him. I think there is nothing wrong with that.

But I think the comparisons between their commercial successes (Madonna and Michael Jackson) should stop. Both have been so successful throughout their careers. It is mind boggling that some fanatics would bicker over album and concert sales in their effort to paint their favorite artist as the "most successful" out of the two. WHO CARES!

SoulAlive said:

Now the Madonna fans get disingenuous. So many reasons why this is a misleading post. Firstly, what's more important, single sales or album sales? Obviously album sales. The fact is Erotica sold way less than her previous albums and Bedtime Stories sold even less than that. There ain't no point denying that. Also her singles sold way less too. Several of them didn't even make the Top 30, something that would have been unthinkable in her 80s peak. Take A Bow was her only major hit from either of those albums. It's also worth noting that that song was a flop pretty much everywhere except America. Over here it was her first single to not reach the top 10. Why is that? The answer is simple. Madonna was hitching a free ride on the back of the Producer Of The Moment Babyface who cowrote it and gave it his signature sound. But Babyface was only big in America. That's why in every other territory, where it had to stand on her popularity alone, it bombed.

As for Evita, yes it was the beginning of things turning around for her, but it was a triumph for her film career, not her musical career. No one counts the album as an authentic Madonna album because there are no new Madonna songs on it. It was a soundtrack album that sold on the back of the film (which, by the way, would have been a hit whoever had starred in it, since it was a such a big budget, highly anticipated film).
[Edited 8/28/07 10:48am]
[Edited 8/28/07 10:49am]
[Edited 8/28/07 10:50am]

midnightmover said:

Take a Bow what a bomb
USA: 1 (7 weeks)
UK: 16
Canada: 1
Japan: 1
Australia: 15


Bedtime Stories
Released: Oct. 25, 1994
USA Peak: 3
USA Sales Figure: 3 Million
Last Certified: 11/21/05
UK Peak: 2
Total World Wide Sales: 7 Million

Erotica
Released: Oct. 20, 1992
USA Peak: 2
USA Sales Figure: 2 Million
Last Certified: Jan. 6, 1993
UK Peak: 2
Total World Wide Sales: 5 Million

Bedtime Stories sold more than Erotica

yes, it beat erotica in sales and was a popular album to have from what I remember.

ehuffnsd said:

Edit.
[Edited 8/28/07 12:58pm]

ehuffnsd said:

We're seeing the shiftiness of the zealot in full effect here. Firstly, you only gave stats for 4 countries with TAB. But still they confirm that it was her first single not to make The Top 10 in the UK for over a decade. She'd had 30 Top 10 hits in a row here so TAB marked a significant fall. We also see that it only made No. 15 in Australia. That might be fine for some, but for an artist of Madonna's track record it's another indication of her decline. Also, it's success in America was due more to airplay than to actual sales; airplay which was guaranteed by having the names Madonna and Babyface on the same record. A trick she would never have needed to pull 5 years earlier. Obviously she was taking no chances after Erotica. By the way, where are the stats for all the other countries? Germany, France, South Africa, etc.

As for the albums, let's see. Bedtime Stories and Erotica only made No. 2. Remind me, before then how many all new Madonna albums failed to make No. 1? Since the first album none had. They all went to No. 1 and stayed there. Even Invincible made No. 1 all over the world and you Madonna fans are always harping on what a flop that was. Next. Erotica only sold 5 million copies worldwide? The Imaculate Collection sold 20 million. Like A Prayer sold 13 million. True Blue sold 18 million. Like A Virgin sold 15 million. After all that, Erotica sells only 5 million and you don't think that's a decline? . Boy, I guess logic must be a dirty word in your part of town. As for Bedtime Stories marginally outselling Erotica it's news to me I must say. I'm a bit sceptical about that to be honest, but I won't harp on it because it doesn't really matter. The point is it was clear by then that she was nowhere near the level of popularity she'd enjoyed in the 80s. She had been replaced as the No. 1 female artist in the world by the likes of Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, and Whitney Houston who were all dramatically outselling her. MJ was also way above her at this point. She was in a slump. Evita gave her a breather and Ray Of Light was the album that finally put her back on top.

midnightmover said:

actully i really only wanted the Bedtime Stories to show weren't checking facts, just blowing things off the top of your head.

Madonna didn't have a number one record between Like A Prayer and Music

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...hy#Singles
[Edited 8/28/07 13:35pm]

oh and i've never denied her sales were lower than at the start of her carear in the 90s, but to say Bedtime Stories sold less than Erotica is wrong.
[Edited 8/28/07 13:39pm]

Just did a search and found two more chart positions for Take A Bow you forgot to include. Germany No. 18, France No. 25. Like I said, a FLOP by her standards. I could probably find more if I searched. Also made an interesting discovery. Apparently TAB only made No. 6 on the sales charts in America. It made No. 1 overall because of it's wall to wall radio exposure. This speaks volumes about how corrupt the American charts are. Radio playlists are decided by a few middle aged men in suits, yet the charts count their choices as if they represent the will of the people. The moment you had Madonna and Babyface on the same record with his trademark sound, you guaranteed huge radio support. The fact that she was resorting to these kind of tricks (and sounding like every other generic R&B star of the time) tells you how rattled she was by Erotica's low sales.

Here's where Madonna's phenomenal luck came into play. She herself describes this period as "an all time low". Both professionally and personally she felt completely burned out and thought about quitting. She told Rupert Everett "I asked myself, what am I doing this for? It's such hard work". Then fate intervened. Evita came along. They'd been trying to make this film for 30 years and the elements had never come together. Now finally, it was going to happen and the timing could not have been more perfect for Madonna. On a personal level, it gave her an escape from herself, becoming this other icon for a year. Plus the fact that the role so eerily and spookily echoed her own life meant she was a natural to get the part even though she can't act. The fact that there was no spoken dialogue was also a blessing for her as it meant her acting deficiencies would be less obvious (though they're still plain to see if you're looking ). It was already known as an incredibly succesful play so it was always going to be a hit. This meant Madonna was able to rid herself of the stigma that had hovered over her since Sex. It also smoothed her transition into middle age and "respectability" which was another issue she was having to think about at the time. In short, it was a god send. Without it her life and career would have gone very differently. Janet Jackson must have wished for a similar godsend after nipplegate and Damita Jo. Sadly, the gods have not been so kind in her case.

midnightmover said:

Perhaps this new movie that Janet Jackson is in will help her?

midnightmover said:

i'm not denying any of that, just didn't agree with your statement of Erotica doing better than Bedtime Stories.

Madge after Erotica and the Girlie Show was at a loss for what to do. She had 5 differnt producers on Bedtime Stories, all of them known in differnt subgenres of music and at least one track was going to be a hit.

ehuffnsd said:

Well, everyone comes to a crossroad in their careers. Madonna survived very, very well, I would think.

Rodya24 said:

i doubt it. i have no interest in seeing it.

Janet needs to get back the auidence that put her on the map. The Dance market. She is the second most successful artist in that market.

Rodya24 said:

Dude, have you seen the trailer for that movie? No, Janet's days at the head of the table are over. She's gonna have to get used to a lower level of success now. On the othr hand, serendipity could well be Madonna's middle name. It's an aspect of her career people often overlook.

midnightmover said:

No, I have not seen the trailer. The movie sounds boring, though. I agree with ehuffnsd that she needs to appeal to her dance audience again.

midnightmover said:

years ago i heard a comendian say God was a practical jokester.

Mozart died broke and Madonna is a billionare

ehuffnsd said:

as long as she is with JD, he's not going to point this out to her. He wants her to 'act black' and be strictly an r&b/hip hop chick, all hood and shit when she was never exclusively that. With comments like saying damita jo is not a janet album, and telling her to go back to her r&b roots, and even saying janet doing a song for rush hour 3 will clash with the paris theme, it seems like he is hindering her artistic growth and ability to go outside the box like she was doing, and she seems to take his word for everything.

alphastreet said:

Janet Jackson never seems to be in control of her career. The men in her life are for the most part determining what she should and should not do. Sad.

Rodya24 said:

As much as I love her, I totally agree. But she still put out her best work and was so classy and sophisticated and all when she was with rene, and even during all for you. Ever since she worked with jermaine on STCML, I had a feeling things were going to go downhill. I like some songs on damita jo and 20 YO a lot, but feel like she's done excellent before and is just doing okay now for some reason. My sister and I were watching some of her old videos last night from velvet rope and all for you after so long, and she couldn't believe what's happened to her lately either (being with JD, dressing sloppy, etc.) I hope to god L.A. Reid pressures to put out good work and go outside the box like before. When If came out, I'm pretty sure no other r&b artist that time was putting out things that were RAW like that, but with people like JD in her inner circle, she seems to be hindered
[Edited 8/29/07 12:44pm]
[Edited 8/29/07 12:45pm]
[Edited 8/29/07 12:46pm]

SoulAlive said:

LMAO

When people speak or think of Michael, they talk about an AMAZING DANCER, an INCREDIBLE ARTIST, a GREAT SONGWRITER, a GREAT LIVCE PEROFMER that went wrong. Nobody has ever questionned MJ talent. They question his private life and the way he managed his career. This is what MJ is knowing for in the first place.

If he died tomorrow, this is how people will remember him.

BUT MADONNA ?

Madonna is only known for selling a lot of records based on scandals and image NOT ON GREAT MUSIC OR TALENT.

Madonna will always be seen as a talentless artist who happens to sell based on image/scanals/controversies.

Don't forget that Madonna was supposed to be a one hit wonders in 80's. But she's a mart girl, she knew her talent would lead her nowhere, and understood that image and scadals SELL .

SoulAlive said:

LOL
MJ's talent will always be more relevant than Madonna's talent. ALWAYS. And Madonna has never been relevant artistically and musically in the first place. This is something you have to understand. MJ will always be regarded as a great artist no matter what happened in his life, He definitely made a BIGGER impact in music. But no doubt about it, nobody can't touch Madonna in terms of management, marketing and promotion. She's a business woman before being an artist, MJ is an artist first. Just because she still sells records doesn't make her more relevant musically and artistically. LOL
And the fact that you need to bring accusations of molestation shows that how you lack arguments... my friend.

I know it's hard for you to understand but despite all the controversies and mistakes MJ made in his career, MJ is still more respected than Madonna would never be .

Madonna can still sell records and touring . She WILL NEVER BE CONSIDERED AS A GREAT ARTIST. NEVER EVER.

And please stop talking about she grows and evolves, she always doing the same pop shit for the past 20 years. What you call evolving is making more scandals and changing styles. Musically and artistically she is the same pop artist making the same pop shit.

Madonna can pretend to play guitar, NOBODY TAKES HER MUSIC SERIOULSY.

She definitely the most overrated artist ever. She just an fashion icon more than anthing else. A One hit wonders that realized that she could still selling based on image.

And I love how you say "I really don't care about "who's more talented", of course you don't want top care because YOU KNOW THAT MJ SHITS ALL OVER MADONNA. And like most Madonna fans, talent is not what matters to you... LOL
[Edited 8/31/07 11:04am]

krayzie said:[quote]

SoulAlive said:

speak for yourself and use I statements.