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PrintableRodya24 said: Madonna has had several great singles, but I would have to be joking if I were to label her a EXTRAORDINARY MUSICAL talent or even a musical talent. And please, Madonna fans (it is obvious that several of you are her fans judging from your public profiles and posts), stop comparing her musical talents to that of MJ and Prince. It is embarrassing. And no, I do not consider either of these men to be "musical geniuses." Time will tell if their music will continue to be admired, respected, and even remembered one hundred years from now.
Moreover, this thread is not about the talents of these artists but whether or not MJ or Madonna is desperate for a hit. IMO, neither is, since Madonna will have a hit regardless of how her singles chart in the US, and MJ does not seem to be desperate to release ANYTHING. And, krayzie is not an insane MJ and Prince fan either. Reading his previous posts, he also seems to find contemptible several of their actions in the past. Who cares if Madonna works with "underground" producers? Well, Madonna fans. And Quincy Jones was a hitmaking producer in the late '70s when Off The Wall was made. I will pick Off The Wall or Purple Rain over the entire Madonna catalogue with its "innovative" material crafted by "underground" prdoucers if f I had to make a choice between the two. And yes, I am much more of a MJ and Prince fan. At least I am upfront with where I stand with Madonna unlike some of her fans with MJ. On a final note, I think it is interesting that a number of Madonna fans go on and on about how difficult it is for Madonna to work in a sexist industry, but often forget the privileges of her being white -- a fact that krayzie alluded to with his statement about MJ and Prince and their attempts to keep their white audience. I wonder how most Americans would view a woman as upfront and controversial with her sexuality, as loud in her opinions, if that woman was a person of color. And no, I am not referring to Janet Jackson, since she has never struck me as being confident or assertive in her opinions, but has been in the past and even now is IMO a "whining temptress." And yes, I like several of her songs just as I like some of the material put out by Madonna over the past two decades. I don't think any Madonna fan on this thread is saying that she is an "extraordinary musical talent".I've never said that.But let's not underestimate her talents,either.She's a pop artist who makes excellent pop music that is (usually) edgy and creative.She grows and evolves with each album,and she never makes the same album twice.To me,these things are much more important than being a super-talented artist who doesn't grow and evolve.Yes,Michael is extremely talented but unlike Madonna,he is stuck in a creative rut.There's nothing edgy and intriguing about any of his recent albums.Honestly,I don't even listen to much of his post-Thriller work. As for Madonna working with underground producers....this is one of the reasons why she has such an impressive catalog of music.Most of the career,she has chosen to steer clear of "commercial",flavor-of-the-month producers,resulting in albums that are edgy and creative,as opposed to the "glossy",overproduced albums that Michael always makes.Of course,she is now in the studio with Timabaland,but she doesn't do this all the time.By contrast,Michael follows the same predictable formula with every album: call up every popular R&B/hip-hop producer and create an album that sounds like all the other crap on the radio right now. Like I said before,I don't really care who is technically "more talented".That's all subjective anyway.I'm much more intrigued by artists who are truly inspired,and are willing to grow and evolve as artists...challenging themselves and their fans.I'm intrigued by artists who don't make the same album over and over again. | |
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mrsnet said: SoulAlive said: I don't think all MJ fans are insane
 but I notice that many of his fans always point to how many records he sold in the past...as if this can erase all the bad memories of what he has become [i]todayLet's be honest here...Michael hasn't really achieved very much in the past several years.LOL, he doesn't have anything out CURRENTLY. We have to talk about the past, LOL. And those PAST records are still outselling some of his contemporaries present records. Billie Jean, among others, were in Spain's top 10 this year! LOL. "....erase bad memories of what he has become..?" LOL. Mike still gets mobbed wherever he appears and he's still being celebrated. Stop being jealous of his unparallel fame,LOL, because NO ONE can impede that. And we all know they've tried. LOL. Michael's "unparrelled fame" has all but destroyed him.I'm certainly not jealous of that  These days,he's extremely famous but unfortunately,it's for all the wrong reasons. | |
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Fiona01 said: People are over Michael Jackson...The amount of time's I've heard "Fallen superstar" or "ex-king of pop" or "has been" is rediculous.
I actually really like MJ and his music, but I view him now as an artist of the past. Maybe it would help if he actually had some drive and input in the music industry. But he obviously hasn't. Where has he been since Invincible? That was almost ten years ago. I don't believe he WANTS to make music. As for Madonna - she may not be everyone's cup of tea - but she is ambitious, hard working, creative, driven and has an ear for a good tune. No one should be surprised that MJ and Madonna get compared: they are both from an era where they were the biggest superstars around. People still buy Madonna. Madonna still makes music. People like Madonna. I guess that speaks for itself.  | |
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SoulAlive said: Rodya24 said: Madonna has had several great singles, but I would have to be joking if I were to label her a EXTRAORDINARY MUSICAL talent or even a musical talent. And please, Madonna fans (it is obvious that several of you are her fans judging from your public profiles and posts), stop comparing her musical talents to that of MJ and Prince. It is embarrassing. And no, I do not consider either of these men to be "musical geniuses." Time will tell if their music will continue to be admired, respected, and even remembered one hundred years from now.
Moreover, this thread is not about the talents of these artists but whether or not MJ or Madonna is desperate for a hit. IMO, neither is, since Madonna will have a hit regardless of how her singles chart in the US, and MJ does not seem to be desperate to release ANYTHING. And, krayzie is not an insane MJ and Prince fan either. Reading his previous posts, he also seems to find contemptible several of their actions in the past. Who cares if Madonna works with "underground" producers? Well, Madonna fans. And Quincy Jones was a hitmaking producer in the late '70s when Off The Wall was made. I will pick Off The Wall or Purple Rain over the entire Madonna catalogue with its "innovative" material crafted by "underground" prdoucers if f I had to make a choice between the two. And yes, I am much more of a MJ and Prince fan. At least I am upfront with where I stand with Madonna unlike some of her fans with MJ. On a final note, I think it is interesting that a number of Madonna fans go on and on about how difficult it is for Madonna to work in a sexist industry, but often forget the privileges of her being white -- a fact that krayzie alluded to with his statement about MJ and Prince and their attempts to keep their white audience. I wonder how most Americans would view a woman as upfront and controversial with her sexuality, as loud in her opinions, if that woman was a person of color. And no, I am not referring to Janet Jackson, since she has never struck me as being confident or assertive in her opinions, but has been in the past and even now is IMO a "whining temptress." And yes, I like several of her songs just as I like some of the material put out by Madonna over the past two decades. I don't think any Madonna fan on this thread is saying that she is an "extraordinary musical talent".I've never said that.But let's not underestimate her talents,either.She's a pop artist who makes excellent pop music that is (usually) edgy and creative.She grows and evolves with each album,and she never makes the same album twice.To me,these things are much more important than being a super-talented artist who doesn't grow and evolve.Yes,Michael is extremely talented but unlike Madonna,he is stuck in a creative rut.There's nothing edgy and intriguing about any of his recent albums.Honestly,I don't even listen to much of his post-Thriller work. As for Madonna working with underground producers....this is one of the reasons why she has such an impressive catalog of music.Most of the career,she has chosen to steer clear of "commercial",flavor-of-the-month producers,resulting in albums that are edgy and creative,as opposed to the "glossy",overproduced albums that Michael always makes.Of course,she is now in the studio with Timabaland,but she doesn't do this all the time.By contrast,Michael follows the same predictable formula with every album: call up every popular R&B/hip-hop producer and create an album that sounds like all the other crap on the radio right now. Like I said before,I don't really care who is technically "more talented".That's all subjective anyway.I'm much more intrigued by artists who are truly inspired,and are willing to grow and evolve as artists...challenging themselves and their fans.I'm intrigued by artists who don't make the same album over and over again. An "impressive catalog of music"  Another comment from you that reeks of being subjective. In fact, the entire post reeks of being subjective. Did you not read the comments on page 10 of the person who said he loved her music in the '80s, but that he lost interest with Erotica and on? A number of people feel that she lost her mojo in the '90s, just like those people who feel that MJ lost the "magic touch" after Thriller. While you feel that his post-Thriller work is boring and uninspired, a number of people disagree; just like you disagree with those who feel that Madonna lost it in the '90s. Like you said, it is "all subjective."
And of course, Madonna has to "grow" and "evolve" as an artist, considering her musical talents when she started in show business was equivalent to that of Britney Spears. EDIT: Let me add to the last sentence since some might disagree with it: According to some, however, Madonna has prodigious talents in popular music comparable to that of Stravinsky, Wagner, and Puccini. Her continual growth as an artist demonstrates her amazing ability to not self-destruct like some of the brilliant musicians of the past. [Edited 8/18/07 20:39pm] [Edited 8/19/07 0:45am] | |
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midnightmover said: Rodya24 said: I have zero knowledge about how she started in show business Allow me to fill in the blanks for you. She fucked a guy who had his own band (Dan Gilroy). He taught her to strum a guitar and she joined the band. She fucked another guy who helped her form another band and also produced her demos (Steve Bray). She was financed by a lesbian manager who she french kissed and flirted with for about a year (Camille Barbone). She then fucked a DJ who got her a record deal. She then fucked another DJ who got her a hit (Holiday). Now you know all you need to know. btw, are you a Madonna fan?
I have nostalgic memories from the 80s of loving her songs and videos as a kid. I have horny memories of wanting to fuck her brains out up until 1993. I still love a lot of her early material, particularly the Like A Prayer album which is one of the best pop albums ever made (I could make a serious case for it being better than Thriller, which is not as consistent or cohesive). She also made some brilliant videos. Unfortunately she ditched her collaborators in the 90s, started recording less outside songs, and her music suffered for it. She also started getting way too pretentious and boring. if i recall correctly Kaminis had and she had know sexual relationship, in fact he worked in a gay club. as were the staff of Sire Records. She promised him to he would get to produce the album, which upset Bray, and in the end the record company chose Reggie Lucas. During the recording is when she start working with JellyBean who produced Holiday. You CANNOT use the name of God, or religion, to justify acts of violence, to hurt, to hate, to discriminate- Madonna
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Rodya24 said: SoulAlive said: I don't think any Madonna fan on this thread is saying that she is an "extraordinary musical talent".I've never said that.But let's not underestimate her talents,either.She's a pop artist who makes excellent pop music that is (usually) edgy and creative.She grows and evolves with each album,and she never makes the same album twice.To me,these things are much more important than being a super-talented artist who doesn't grow and evolve.Yes,Michael is extremely talented but unlike Madonna,he is stuck in a creative rut.There's nothing edgy and intriguing about any of his recent albums.Honestly,I don't even listen to much of his post-Thriller work. As for Madonna working with underground producers....this is one of the reasons why she has such an impressive catalog of music.Most of the career,she has chosen to steer clear of "commercial",flavor-of-the-month producers,resulting in albums that are edgy and creative,as opposed to the "glossy",overproduced albums that Michael always makes.Of course,she is now in the studio with Timabaland,but she doesn't do this all the time.By contrast,Michael follows the same predictable formula with every album: call up every popular R&B/hip-hop producer and create an album that sounds like all the other crap on the radio right now. Like I said before,I don't really care who is technically "more talented".That's all subjective anyway.I'm much more intrigued by artists who are truly inspired,and are willing to grow and evolve as artists...challenging themselves and their fans.I'm intrigued by artists who don't make the same album over and over again. An "impressive catalog of music" Another comment from you that reeks of being subjective. In fact, the entire post reeks of being subjective. Did you not read the comments on page 10 of the person who said he loved her music in the '80s, but that he lost interest with Erotica and on? A number of people feel that she lost her mojo in the '90s, just like those people who feel that MJ lost the "magic touch" after Thriller. While you feel that his post-Thriller work is boring and uninspired, a number of people disagree; just like you disagree with those who feel that Madonna lost it in the '90s. Like you said, it is "all subjective."
And of course, Madonna has to "grow" and "evolve" as an artist, considering her musical talents when she started in show business was equivalent to that of Britney Spears. "Madonna lost her mojo in the 90s?" Funny...many,many people say that 'Ray Of Light' (released in 1998) is her best album.How do you explain that? I think you're just bitter because she still has a career,while your MJ clearly doesn't.While she remains focused,doing albums and tours,what exactly is he doing? Michael is OVER and you know it. | |
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SoulAlive said: Rodya24 said: An "impressive catalog of music" Another comment from you that reeks of being subjective. In fact, the entire post reeks of being subjective. Did you not read the comments on page 10 of the person who said he loved her music in the '80s, but that he lost interest with Erotica and on? A number of people feel that she lost her mojo in the '90s, just like those people who feel that MJ lost the "magic touch" after Thriller. While you feel that his post-Thriller work is boring and uninspired, a number of people disagree; just like you disagree with those who feel that Madonna lost it in the '90s. Like you said, it is "all subjective."
And of course, Madonna has to "grow" and "evolve" as an artist, considering her musical talents when she started in show business was equivalent to that of Britney Spears. "Madonna lost her mojo in the 90s?" Funny...many,many people say that 'Ray Of Light' (released in 1998) is her best album.How do you explain that? I think you're just bitter because she still has a career,while your MJ clearly doesn't.While she remains focused,doing albums and tours,what exactly is he doing? Michael is OVER and you know it. But does it matter if MJ is over? He has been around since he was a child, his out lasted many other child stars. People were chanting his name years before anyone had heard of Madonna or Prince. The first years of his career from the Jackson 5 to Thriller were quite magical, anything that he did after that to me were bonuses. So if he calls it a day now I think that's okay. I understand that his reputation as a person may be in tatters and quite frankly he should have retired back in 93, but I do believe as an entertainer he has provided the world with more than enough enjoyment. Just go to youtube, some of the J5 vintage stuff is even more popular than the stuff post Thriller. [Edited 8/20/07 2:17am] | |
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SoulAlive said: Rodya24 said: An "impressive catalog of music" Another comment from you that reeks of being subjective. In fact, the entire post reeks of being subjective. Did you not read the comments on page 10 of the person who said he loved her music in the '80s, but that he lost interest with Erotica and on? A number of people feel that she lost her mojo in the '90s, just like those people who feel that MJ lost the "magic touch" after Thriller. While you feel that his post-Thriller work is boring and uninspired, a number of people disagree; just like you disagree with those who feel that Madonna lost it in the '90s. Like you said, it is "all subjective."
And of course, Madonna has to "grow" and "evolve" as an artist, considering her musical talents when she started in show business was equivalent to that of Britney Spears. "Madonna lost her mojo in the 90s?" Funny...many,many people say that 'Ray Of Light' (released in 1998) is her best album.How do you explain that? I think you're just bitter because she still has a career,while your MJ clearly doesn't.While she remains focused,doing albums and tours,what exactly is he doing? Michael is OVER and you know it. No offense, but I have never expressed bitterness towards Madonna. I do not know her as a person. In fact, I have never met her. I like several of her singles. In several posts, I have expressed admiration for her long career and ability to rise to the top in a sexist industry (although I believe her being white has helped a lot). But, I am not blind to her limitations as a singer, dancer, and songwriter as some of her fans seem to be. And no, Michael Jackson is not "my" Michael. I have never met him, nor do I think I will see him in person in the future. And I am not blind to his limitations either. I am well aware that he will not release a new album this November. But of course, I would love to have new material from him -- b-sides, unreleased tracks, and even new work if he ever feels like channeling his creativity through music again. But I remain more than satisfied with his output from the '60s to even Invincible. And along with Prince, David Bowie, and John Lennon, he remains a favorite male artist of mine. In fact, I much prefer classical music. But whenever I do branch out, he along with the aforementioned artists are at the top of the list in the popular musicians I admire. Furthermore, I am not blind to the fact that Prince and Michael Jackson are much more talented musicially than Madonna. But again, I do not think Madonna is desperate for a hit. In fact, I am sure she will have a blockbuster album and tour. However, I will call a person out whenever he or she writes a post that is CLEARLY based on subjective grounds but glossed in objective language. You, SoulAlive often act as if you are a publicist for Madonna. A number of people agree, yes, that Ray of Light is one of her greatest albums. But a number of people also prefer her '80s output, just like some prefer Michael Jackon's work in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. Check out Robert Christgau's review of Ray Of Light. It sums up how I feel about it. On a final note, it is sad to see that some people live their lives through the achievement of others -- in particular celebrities. Why would I feel bitter that Madonna has a thriving career at the moment and MJ does not? I do not know them at all. Moreover, I did not grow up in the '80s, so do not have nostalgic memories whenever I see them perform. I would have loved to have been alive in the '80s when both were at their peak. But I was not. [Edited 8/20/07 2:44am] | |
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whatsgoingon said: SoulAlive said: "Madonna lost her mojo in the 90s?" Funny...many,many people say that 'Ray Of Light' (released in 1998) is her best album.How do you explain that? I think you're just bitter because she still has a career,while your MJ clearly doesn't.While she remains focused,doing albums and tours,what exactly is he doing? Michael is OVER and you know it. But does it matter if MJ is over? He has been around since he was a child, his out lasted many other child stars. People were chanting his name years before anyone had heard of Madonna or Prince. The first years of his career from the Jackson 5 to Thriller were quite magical, anything that he did after that to me were bonuses. So if he calls it a day now I think that's okay. I understand that his reputation as a person may be in tatters and quite frankly he should have retired back in 93, but I do believe as an entertainer he has provided the world with more than enough enjoyment. Just go to youtube, some of the J5 vintage stuff is even more popular than the stuff post Thriller. [Edited 8/20/07 2:17am]  It is great to view clips both from his pre- and post-Thriller years. I will continue to think of him as one of the greatest entertainers in modern popular music, even if he never decides to perform again. He has made his mark. | |
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ehuffnsd said: if i recall correctly Kaminis had and she had know sexual relationship, in fact he worked in a gay club. as were the staff of Sire Records. She promised him to he would get to produce the album, which upset Bray, and in the end the record company chose Reggie Lucas. During the recording is when she start working with JellyBean who produced Holiday. Wow! You are one of the biggest Madonna fans on here and yet you don't know Madonna was fucking Kamins??! Damn! You do know that she's from Detroit and she married Sean Penn, right? Everyone knows she dumped Kamins after he introduced her to Jellybean. Kamins is still bitching about it today. I mentioned earlier about the selective memories Madonna fans have. I find it extremely hard to believe you are hearing this for the first time.“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
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Rodya24 said: SoulAlive said: "Madonna lost her mojo in the 90s?" Funny...many,many people say that 'Ray Of Light' (released in 1998) is her best album.How do you explain that? I think you're just bitter because she still has a career,while your MJ clearly doesn't.While she remains focused,doing albums and tours,what exactly is he doing? Michael is OVER and you know it. No offense, but I have never expressed bitterness towards Madonna. I do not know her as a person. In fact, I have never met her. I like several of her singles. In several posts, I have expressed admiration for her long career and ability to rise to the top in a sexist industry (although I believe her being white has helped a lot). But, I am not blind to her limitations as a singer, dancer, and songwriter as some of her fans seem to be. And no, Michael Jackson is not "my" Michael. I have never met him, nor do I think I will see him in person in the future. And I am not blind to his limitations either. I am well aware that he will not release a new album this November. But of course, I would love to have new material from him -- b-sides, unreleased tracks, and even new work if he ever feels like channeling his creativity through music again. But I remain more than satisfied with his output from the '60s to even Invincible. And along with Prince, David Bowie, and John Lennon, he remains a favorite male artist of mine. In fact, I much prefer classical music. But whenever I do branch out, he along with the aforementioned artists are at the top of the list in the popular musicians I admire. Furthermore, I am not blind to the fact that Prince and Michael Jackson are much more talented musicially than Madonna. But again, I do not think Madonna is desperate for a hit. In fact, I am sure she will have a blockbuster album and tour. However, I will call a person out whenever he or she writes a post that is CLEARLY based on subjective grounds but glossed in objective language. You, SoulAlive often act as if you are a publicist for Madonna. A number of people agree, yes, that Ray of Light is one of her greatest albums. But a number of people also prefer her '80s output, just like some prefer Michael Jackon's work in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. Check out Robert Christgau's review of Ray Of Light. It sums up how I feel about it. On a final note, it is sad to see that some people live their lives through the achievement of others -- in particular celebrities. Why would I feel bitter that Madonna has a thriving career at the moment and MJ does not? I do not know them at all. Moreover, I did not grow up in the '80s, so do not have nostalgic memories whenever I see them perform. I would have loved to have been alive in the '80s when both were at their peak. But I was not. No,I am not a publicist for Madonna I'm just a longtime fan who appreciates her music and her concerts.Alot of times,I think she gets unfairly attacked and I respond accordingly (as any fan would).I find it amusing how many of MJ's fans attack her,considering where his career is at these days.I don't think it's crazy to suggest that she has handled her career far more effectively than he has handled his.I think that's a valid point.This is a silly discussion because,as I've pointed out before,Madonna is still "active" in her career while Michael isn't.
And btw,why is Prince being mentioned in this thread? I thought this thread was about Madonna and Michael. | |
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SoulAlive said: Rodya24 said: No offense, but I have never expressed bitterness towards Madonna. I do not know her as a person. In fact, I have never met her. I like several of her singles. In several posts, I have expressed admiration for her long career and ability to rise to the top in a sexist industry (although I believe her being white has helped a lot). But, I am not blind to her limitations as a singer, dancer, and songwriter as some of her fans seem to be. And no, Michael Jackson is not "my" Michael. I have never met him, nor do I think I will see him in person in the future. And I am not blind to his limitations either. I am well aware that he will not release a new album this November. But of course, I would love to have new material from him -- b-sides, unreleased tracks, and even new work if he ever feels like channeling his creativity through music again. But I remain more than satisfied with his output from the '60s to even Invincible. And along with Prince, David Bowie, and John Lennon, he remains a favorite male artist of mine. In fact, I much prefer classical music. But whenever I do branch out, he along with the aforementioned artists are at the top of the list in the popular musicians I admire. Furthermore, I am not blind to the fact that Prince and Michael Jackson are much more talented musicially than Madonna. But again, I do not think Madonna is desperate for a hit. In fact, I am sure she will have a blockbuster album and tour. However, I will call a person out whenever he or she writes a post that is CLEARLY based on subjective grounds but glossed in objective language. You, SoulAlive often act as if you are a publicist for Madonna. A number of people agree, yes, that Ray of Light is one of her greatest albums. But a number of people also prefer her '80s output, just like some prefer Michael Jackon's work in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. Check out Robert Christgau's review of Ray Of Light. It sums up how I feel about it. On a final note, it is sad to see that some people live their lives through the achievement of others -- in particular celebrities. Why would I feel bitter that Madonna has a thriving career at the moment and MJ does not? I do not know them at all. Moreover, I did not grow up in the '80s, so do not have nostalgic memories whenever I see them perform. I would have loved to have been alive in the '80s when both were at their peak. But I was not. No,I am not a publicist for Madonna I'm just a longtime fan who appreciates her music and her concerts.Alot of times,I think she gets unfairly attacked and I respond accordingly (as any fan would).I find it amusing how many of MJ's fans attack her,considering where his career is at these days.I don't think it's crazy to suggest that she has handled her career far more effectively than he has handled his.I think that's a valid point.This is a silly discussion because,as I've pointed out before,Madonna is still "active" in her career while Michael isn't.
And btw,why is Prince being mentioned in this thread? I thought this thread was about Madonna and Michael. As for Prince being mentioned in this thread, I have no idea when he was first compared to the other two. I brought him up because others, including me, kept bringing him up and comparing him to Madonna and Michael Jackson. As for MJ fans "attacking" Madonna, when it comes down to singing and dancing, I would think that a number of them have a valid point. Just like you have a valid point about the current state of his career. But I am not familiar with this "What have you done for me lately" mentality that a lot of fans of popular musicians seem to have. I am fine with artists not releasing material every two years, since some of the composers I listen to most of the time have been dead for over one hundred years.  | |
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Nobody doubts that Michael is talented,but what good is being super-talented if you're not gonna grow and evolve as an artist? What good is being a superb performer/dancer if you don't even tour anymore? How can people appreciate you as an artist when there are always so many distractions and scandals getting in the way?
You don't think Madonna is as talented as Michael,but I find her to be far more interesting.I know that there is always a new album and tour coming.I don't have to wait ten years for new music from her.She doesn't get in trouble with the law,so there aren't any "distractions" or scandals that overshadow her music Most importantly,when I buy a new Madonna CD,I know it's not gonna sound anything like the previous CD.She never makes the same album twice.
. [Edited 8/20/07 4:36am] | |
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SoulAlive said: Nobody doubts that Michael is talented,but what good is being super-talented if you're not gonna grow and evolve as an artist? What good is being a superb performer/dancer if you don't even tour anymore? How can people appreciate you as an artist when there are always so many distractions and scandals getting in the way?
You don't think Madonna is as talented as Michael,but I find her to be far more interesting.I know that there is always a new album and tour coming.I don't have to wait ten years for new music from her.She doesn't get in trouble with the law,so there aren't any "distractions" or scandals that overshadow her music
. [Edited 8/20/07 4:22am] You've made this point approximately 1,299,803 times now. We get it. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
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SoulAlive said: Nobody doubts that Michael is talented,but what good is being super-talented if you're not gonna grow and evolve as an artist? What good is being a superb performer/dancer if you don't even tour anymore? How can people appreciate you as an artist when there are always so many distractions and scandals getting in the way?
You don't think Madonna is as talented as Michael,but I find her to be far more interesting.I know that there is always a new album and tour coming.I don't have to wait ten years for new music from her.She doesn't get in trouble with the law,so there aren't any "distractions" or scandals that overshadow her music
[Edited 8/20/07 4:22am] The fact that you find Madonna to be "far more interesting" than Michael Jackson is your opinion. I am sure that a number of people agree with you, at the same time others disagree. As for these "distractions" and "scandals" that have "overshadowed" his music, well, for me these "distractions" led me to become interested in his work. While I grew up with songs such as "Beat It" and "Human Nature," I never thought much of Michael Jackson until the 2005 child molestation trial. It works both ways, I think. Some become disgusted with his personal life and others find themselves asking, "Why do such a number of people care about the outcome of this trial? Was he that big in the '80s? Why?" Again, I am unfamiliar with the common mentality of "What have you done for me lately." I am still discovering so much of his music from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, and even '00s. To be honest, I do not care if he never performs again. It would be nice if he released b-sides, unheard tracks, and even new music -- if he ever feels like doing so. I take pleasure in his music. And I also find the discussions on sexuality, race, gender, and fan interactions that the name "Michael Jackson" generates to be fascinating. As with Elvis and The Beatles, there is quite a lot to talk about outside of his music. My life does not depend on Michael Jackson making a comeback or "growing" and "evolving" as an artist. | |
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You became very interested in his music only after he gets accused of molesting a young child?    | |
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SoulAlive said: You became very interested in his music only after he gets accused of molesting a young child?
Yes. I am not alone. His back catalogue, in particular compilations, sold better than usual during the trial and afterwards (I believe). A number of people, I think, were curious to listen to his music while the media bombarded them with coverage of his trial. Thank you for labeling my action as "nuts." I had no idea that it was unacceptable to take pleasure in music created by someone who has been accused of something awful. I guess I will have to burn most of my record collection, including What's Going On, since Marvin Gaye is remembered as a wife beater by some. | |
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Madonna doesn't need a hit single because she still gets hit albums
By the way, Hung up and Sorry were hits, so...end of the story  [Edited 8/20/07 5:02am]  | |
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JoeTyler said: Madonna doesn't need a hit single because she still gets hit albums
By the way, Hung up and Sorry were hits, so...end of the story
[Edited 8/20/07 5:02am] I think it has been established that Madonna is not desperate for a hit. This thread has lasted as long as it has because of its transformation into Madonna's musical talents versus Michael Jackson's musical talents. It was bound to happen. | |
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I havent read much of this thread but all i can say is that madonna has a long way to go before she can reach MJ in terms of influencial work, body of work etc. Along with the jacksons he has recorded over 30 albums since 1967. Im sure he will drop another album with at least 7 quality songs which he has done since off the wall.I dont see any desperation with MJ, he is always linked with various artists, producers which he can get like that. Just hearing some of his unreleased stuff shows me he could released an album every 2 years but he always wants things to be perfect and make a lasting impression. | |
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SoulAlive said: krayzie said: To take it in my own perspective there were three superstars in the 80's : Prince, MJ, Madonna Now, take off the hype, the media, the fame, the scandals, the choreographers and the mega producers behind etc... Without all that your Madonna ain't shit. Period
Without all that Prince : Great performer, dancer, singer, and Musician Without all that MJ : Great peformer/entertainer/dancer and AMAZING SINGER since he was a kid Without all that Madonna : She can't sing for saving her life, she can't dance, she can't do absolutely nothing Of course now we can talk about how Madonna sells records and how she's still a superstar But to me she's still nothing but a talenteless woman who can't sing whatsoever... Of course in my perspective... We can sit here all day and debate whether or not Madonna has talent.That's all subjective,anyway.However,there are some things that can't be disputed.The truth is,Madonna is still relevent and is still doing great things in her career.Last year,she completed a world tour that grossed $200 million,making it the biggest,most successful tour by a female artist.Her last CD sold over 10 million copies worldwide.On the recent Forbes list of highest earning artists,she is the wealthiest female artist on the list.Her Warner contract is coming to an end and you can bet that she will receive several lucrative offers from other companies (a potential deal with LiveNation is worth $160 million).Opinions mean nothing,it's the FACTS that really count,and the fact is,Madonna is still on top of her game.End of story. OK, seems that you have a strong problem of understanding. You want to talk about facts right ??? OK. MJ is not Madonna. Do you understand ??? MJ has built his career on TALENT. Do you understand ??? He's a REAL artist, a REAL singer, a REAL dancer, a REAL talent. Do you understand ???? What made MJ successful is the quality of his music and his talent. Do you understand ??? So, the public always expects greatness from him, because he is regarded as a GREAT talent. Not Madonna. They expect great performances, great music, great dancing, great singing etc... So from this point of view this is MORE difficult for an artist like MJ (or Prince) to keep selling records when you put the standard extremly high. Everytime MJ releases a new album, people wanna know if this is as good as Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous etc... Which is obvioulsy EXTRMELY difficult to repeat. You can't repeat classic albums. Madonna in the other side made her success based on her image/icon/scandals since she has NO talent at all. Nobody asks her to release great music because she has never released great music in the first place. Nobody asks her to sing because she cant sing. Nobody asks her to be a great guitarist because everybody knows she cant play guitar. Madonna can still release the same garbage popshit she has done for the past 20 years. Do you understand ? | |
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krayzie said: SoulAlive said: We can sit here all day and debate whether or not Madonna has talent.That's all subjective,anyway.However,there are some things that can't be disputed.The truth is,Madonna is still relevent and is still doing great things in her career.Last year,she completed a world tour that grossed $200 million,making it the biggest,most successful tour by a female artist.Her last CD sold over 10 million copies worldwide.On the recent Forbes list of highest earning artists,she is the wealthiest female artist on the list.Her Warner contract is coming to an end and you can bet that she will receive several lucrative offers from other companies (a potential deal with LiveNation is worth $160 million).Opinions mean nothing,it's the FACTS that really count,and the fact is,Madonna is still on top of her game.End of story. OK, seems that you have a strong problem of understanding. You want to talk about facts right ??? OK. MJ is not Madonna. Do you understand ??? MJ has built his career on TALENT. Do you understand ??? He's a REAL artist, a REAL singer, a REAL dancer, a REAL talent. Do you understand ???? What made MJ successful is the quality of his music and his talent. Do you understand ??? So, the public always expects greatness from him, because he is regarded as a GREAT talent. Not Madonna. They expect great performances, great music, great dancing, great singing etc... So from this point of view this is MORE difficult for an artist like MJ (or Prince) to keep selling records when you put the standard extremly high. Everytime MJ releases a new album, people wanna know if this is as good as Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous etc... Which is obvioulsy EXTRMELY difficult to repeat. You can't repeat classic albums. Madonna in the other side made her success based on her image/icon/scandals since she has NO talent at all. Nobody asks her to release great music because she has never released great music in the first place. Nobody asks her to sing because she cant sing. Nobody asks her to be a great guitarist because everybody knows she cant play guitar. Madonna can still release the same garbage popshit she has done for the past 20 years. Do you understand ? WELL SAID  | |
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Rodya24 said: SoulAlive said: You became very interested in his music only after he gets accused of molesting a young child?
Yes. I am not alone. His back catalogue, in particular compilations, sold better than usual during the trial and afterwards (I believe). A number of people, I think, were curious to listen to his music while the media bombarded them with coverage of his trial. Thank you for labeling my action as "nuts." I had no idea that it was unacceptable to take pleasure in music created by someone who has been accused of something awful. I guess I will have to burn most of my record collection, including What's Going On, since Marvin Gaye is remembered as a wife beater by some. your right , im a fan of michael 2 and like 1 out of 5 fans i know became intrested during or after the trial cause they where like hey whats the fuss. and i dont think either one of them is desparade of a hit . your right madonna stil has a carreer , but hey , lawsuits , and financial troubles dont quite speed up your music. and michael not wanting to make music anymore , i think he stil loves music but he also said he wants to make films ( wich he probaly wil not do in his life time again) and his kids are his #1 not his carreer now and that reflects on his slow progress michaels albums sounding the same , no i disagree , what i do agree on that is he may be chassing the thriller thing in terms of get in 2 popular stuff whats goin on. HIStory was an exception he spoke his mind on that album , but he might stuck to the same theme too much and its not quite your feel good lets get up and dance cd like thriller or off the wall. i dont think his post Quincy albums have the same flow or consistancy but i also blaime the CD era for that cause albums are just way to long today. but i stil enjoy his post bad work and even a track or 4 from invincible. for him not releasing anything .. well i think it will come but he knows that if he comes out it better be good. same goes for whitney houston her album isnt comming out this year either because she and her people know if she puts an album out it better be good. this is not an answer to your question but you could say it like this who is in need of a hit more then the other your answer is MJ | |
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krayzie said: OK, seems that you have a strong problem of understanding. You want to talk about facts right ??? OK. MJ is not Madonna. Do you understand ??? MJ has built his career on TALENT. Do you understand ??? He's a REAL artist, a REAL singer, a REAL dancer, a REAL talent. Do you understand ???? What made MJ successful is the quality of his music and his talent. Do you understand ??? So, the public always expects greatness from him, because he is regarded as a GREAT talent. Not Madonna. They expect great performances, great music, great dancing, great singing etc... So from this point of view this is MORE difficult for an artist like MJ (or Prince) to keep selling records when you put the standard extremly high. Everytime MJ releases a new album, people wanna know if this is as good as Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous etc... Which is obvioulsy EXTRMELY difficult to repeat. You can't repeat classic albums. Madonna in the other side made her success based on her image/icon/scandals since she has NO talent at all. Nobody asks her to release great music because she has never released great music in the first place. Nobody asks her to sing because she cant sing. Nobody asks her to be a great guitarist because everybody knows she cant play guitar. Madonna can still release the same garbage popshit she has done for the past 20 years. Do you understand ? Agreed. I actually like Madonna, but I much prefer MJ. Madonna can sell all the records in the world, be relevant with the young crowd, get great reviews and outsell MJ and it still wouldn't matter to me one bit because Michael is the better and more talented artist overall. When people look back at Madonna's career years from now they will say she pushed boundaries and was a big icon in her day, but does anyone honestly think she will be remembered for her "great musical talent"? NO. That is the difference between her and Michael Jackson. Yes, I am aware that he will be remembered for all the scandals he has had but he'll also be remembered for his great musical talent. Madonna will not.End of.[Edited 8/26/07 14:50pm] "And When The Groove Is Dead And Gone, You Know That Love Survives, So We Can Rock Forever" RIP MJ 
"Baby, that was much too fast"...Goodnight dear sweet Prince. I'll love you always | |
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krayzie said: SoulAlive said: We can sit here all day and debate whether or not Madonna has talent.That's all subjective,anyway.However,there are some things that can't be disputed.The truth is,Madonna is still relevent and is still doing great things in her career.Last year,she completed a world tour that grossed $200 million,making it the biggest,most successful tour by a female artist.Her last CD sold over 10 million copies worldwide.On the recent Forbes list of highest earning artists,she is the wealthiest female artist on the list.Her Warner contract is coming to an end and you can bet that she will receive several lucrative offers from other companies (a potential deal with LiveNation is worth $160 million).Opinions mean nothing,it's the FACTS that really count,and the fact is,Madonna is still on top of her game.End of story. OK, seems that you have a strong problem of understanding. You want to talk about facts right ??? OK. MJ is not Madonna. Do you understand ??? MJ has built his career on TALENT. Do you understand ??? He's a REAL artist, a REAL singer, a REAL dancer, a REAL talent. Do you understand ???? What made MJ successful is the quality of his music and his talent. Do you understand ??? So, the public always expects greatness from him, because he is regarded as a GREAT talent. Not Madonna. They expect great performances, great music, great dancing, great singing etc... So from this point of view this is MORE difficult for an artist like MJ (or Prince) to keep selling records when you put the standard extremly high. Everytime MJ releases a new album, people wanna know if this is as good as Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous etc... Which is obvioulsy EXTRMELY difficult to repeat. You can't repeat classic albums. Madonna in the other side made her success based on her image/icon/scandals since she has NO talent at all. Nobody asks her to release great music because she has never released great music in the first place. Nobody asks her to sing because she cant sing. Nobody asks her to be a great guitarist because everybody knows she cant play guitar. Madonna can still release the same garbage popshit she has done for the past 20 years. Do you understand ? Understand this: Michael was great at one time but these days,his career has been reduced to this: 
His talent is irrelevent these days.When people speak of Michael,they don't talk about "Michael-the-amazing-dancer" or "Michael-the-incredible- artist" or "Michael-the-great-songwriter" or "Michael-the-great-singer".No,they talk about a weird black guy who now looks like an old white woman.They talk about a weird guy who has "sleepovers" with young boys.They talk about a black guy who "bought" three white children and are claiming that he is their biological father.They talk about a black guy who is ashamed of his black culture,to the point that he bleaced his skin.They talk about a guy who hasn't grown and evolved as an artist.They talk about a guy who is dumb enough to dangle a baby off a hotel balcony.They talk about a guy who never grew up and became a normal adult.That's what his career is about these days.The "greatness" that you speak of is no longer there and if it is,clearly nobody is paying attention anymore. Meanwhile,Madonna continues to grow and evolve.She's still doing amazing things with her career.In this decade alone,she's done three world tours that have grossed over $460 million.She's preparing another album and tour as we speak.I really don't care about "who's more talented".Go ahead and waste your time,arguing that Michael is more talented.The next time he gets accused of molesting a kid,go to the courthouse and try to make that argument.You will see that no one cares anymore. | |
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SoulAlive said: krayzie said: OK, seems that you have a strong problem of understanding. You want to talk about facts right ??? OK. MJ is not Madonna. Do you understand ??? MJ has built his career on TALENT. Do you understand ??? He's a REAL artist, a REAL singer, a REAL dancer, a REAL talent. Do you understand ???? What made MJ successful is the quality of his music and his talent. Do you understand ??? So, the public always expects greatness from him, because he is regarded as a GREAT talent. Not Madonna. They expect great performances, great music, great dancing, great singing etc... So from this point of view this is MORE difficult for an artist like MJ (or Prince) to keep selling records when you put the standard extremly high. Everytime MJ releases a new album, people wanna know if this is as good as Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous etc... Which is obvioulsy EXTRMELY difficult to repeat. You can't repeat classic albums. Madonna in the other side made her success based on her image/icon/scandals since she has NO talent at all. Nobody asks her to release great music because she has never released great music in the first place. Nobody asks her to sing because she cant sing. Nobody asks her to be a great guitarist because everybody knows she cant play guitar. Madonna can still release the same garbage popshit she has done for the past 20 years. Do you understand ? Understand this: Michael was great at one time but these days,his career has been reduced to this:
His talent is irrelevent these days.When people speak of Michael,they don't talk about "Michael-the-amazing-dancer" or "Michael-the-incredible- artist" or "Michael-the-great-songwriter" or "Michael-the-great-singer".No,they talk about a weird black guy who now looks like an old white woman.They talk about a weird guy who has "sleepovers" with young boys.They talk about a black guy who "bought" three white children and are claiming that he is their biological father.They talk about a black guy who is ashamed of his black culture,to the point that he bleaced his skin.They talk about a guy who hasn't grown and evolved as an artist.They talk about a guy who is dumb enough to dangle a baby off a hotel balcony.They talk about a guy who never grew up and became a normal adult.That's what his career is about these days.The "greatness" that you speak of is no longer there and if it is,clearly nobody is paying attention anymore. Meanwhile,Madonna continues to grow and evolve.She's still doing amazing things with her career.In this decade alone,she's done three world tours that have grossed over $460 million.She's preparing another album and tour as we speak.I really don't care about "who's more talented".Go ahead and waste your time,arguing that Michael is more talented.The next time he gets accused of molesting a kid,go to the courthouse and try to make that argument.You will see that no one cares anymore. Well, that's all true, but that still doesn't take away the fact that MJ has more raw talent in his little toe than Madonna has in her entire body. And I think for people who truely appreciate talent they will always put MJ before Madonna. | |
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whatsgoingon said: SoulAlive said: Understand this: Michael was great at one time but these days,his career has been reduced to this:
His talent is irrelevent these days.When people speak of Michael,they don't talk about "Michael-the-amazing-dancer" or "Michael-the-incredible- artist" or "Michael-the-great-songwriter" or "Michael-the-great-singer".No,they talk about a weird black guy who now looks like an old white woman.They talk about a weird guy who has "sleepovers" with young boys.They talk about a black guy who "bought" three white children and are claiming that he is their biological father.They talk about a black guy who is ashamed of his black culture,to the point that he bleaced his skin.They talk about a guy who hasn't grown and evolved as an artist.They talk about a guy who is dumb enough to dangle a baby off a hotel balcony.They talk about a guy who never grew up and became a normal adult.That's what his career is about these days.The "greatness" that you speak of is no longer there and if it is,clearly nobody is paying attention anymore. Meanwhile,Madonna continues to grow and evolve.She's still doing amazing things with her career.In this decade alone,she's done three world tours that have grossed over $460 million.She's preparing another album and tour as we speak.I really don't care about "who's more talented".Go ahead and waste your time,arguing that Michael is more talented.The next time he gets accused of molesting a kid,go to the courthouse and try to make that argument.You will see that no one cares anymore. Well, that's all true, but that still doesn't take away the fact that MJ has more raw talent in his little toe than Madonna has in her entire body. And I think for people who truely appreciate talent they will always put MJ before Madonna. Oh,I agree he has talent.It's just a shame that he destroyed what was once an amazing career.If he had done things differently,he would be where Prince and Madonna are today....still touring and recording,and making lots of money. | |
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See, this is (for the most part) why I like Prince fans.
You are able to hold (again, for the most part) an 11 page discussion on Madonna v MJ and it's interesting, filled with lots of valid points which hasn't descended into the usual fighting and rubbish you get in MJ or Madonna forums. I probably shouldn't bother adding my two cents to this in terms of trying to answer the question as I'm a moderator at the biggest fan-run Madonna forum there is, so it'd hardly be unbiased, but I do love MJ's music as well, so reading all the comments has been extremely interesting. I will say this - you are unlikely to find many "real" Madonna fans who would try and argue she is a better singer than MJ. We'd all concede that one. LOL. Although, saying that, her live singing has generally improved through her career whereas MJ's seems to deteriorate. The dancing one has been pretty well discussed above but I'm afraid I fall on the Madonna side of that one, but as, again has been fairly stated above, she trained as a dancer. As for wanting the "hit" - since the Billboard chart is mostly based on airplay - why is it even relevant these days? Surely the US chart is based on what certain DJs choose to play? Someone on here kept harking on about how 'Hung Up' only hit no.7 due to downloads. Well, isn't what people actually choose to spend their money on a better way of deciding public appeal than what a DJ chooses to play? See, a Madonna fan would point out that for a few weeks in a row last year, in the US *SALES* chart she had FIVE of the top ten selling singles in the land. Desperate for a hit? Seems like the question should be 'desperate for airplay' if you ask me. And sure, biased Madonna fan that I am - the current Timbaland and Pharrell produced stuff is blatantly focused on that, which is not what I would rather she was doing, but hey... it's her career, not mine. The other 'hit' argument that has me chuckling is that Billie Jean was a Top 10 hit in Spain last year. Haha. Oh dear. Surely a 're-entry'? No?
But charts are a Madonna fan's best friend - I mean, she's had 12 UK and US No.1 singles, more UK Top 10 hits than the Beatles and Stones put together. I mean, hell, here she has had 68 singles and out of those only 8 didn't hit the Top 10... over a 25 year that's incredible and will never be matched ever again, but then - Prince has only had one UK No.1 - does that mean his singles are less good than hers? Of course not. MJ's best friend is his past sales of his back catalogue. And good on him - they are great albums for the most part, and with every passing year without a new album, people who get into him are forced into buying the back catalogue. Makes me laugh - I wonder which is the more frustrating - being a Prince fan, with all this music you know is there recorded and unreleased, or being a MJ fan - just waiting...waiting...for anything! LOL Tell him u live on a lilypad with a horny toad | |
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stereoboy said: See, this is (for the most part) why I like Prince fans.
You are able to hold (again, for the most part) an 11 page discussion on Madonna v MJ and it's interesting, filled with lots of valid points which hasn't descended into the usual fighting and rubbish you get in MJ or Madonna forums. I probably shouldn't bother adding my two cents to this in terms of trying to answer the question as I'm a moderator at the biggest fan-run Madonna forum there is, so it'd hardly be unbiased, but I do love MJ's music as well, so reading all the comments has been extremely interesting. I will say this - you are unlikely to find many "real" Madonna fans who would try and argue she is a better singer than MJ. We'd all concede that one. LOL. Although, saying that, her live singing has generally improved through her career whereas MJ's seems to deteriorate. The dancing one has been pretty well discussed above but I'm afraid I fall on the Madonna side of that one, but as, again has been fairly stated above, she trained as a dancer. As for wanting the "hit" - since the Billboard chart is mostly based on airplay - why is it even relevant these days? Surely the US chart is based on what certain DJs choose to play? Someone on here kept harking on about how 'Hung Up' only hit no.7 due to downloads. Well, isn't what people actually choose to spend their money on a better way of deciding public appeal than what a DJ chooses to play? See, a Madonna fan would point out that for a few weeks in a row last year, in the US *SALES* chart she had FIVE of the top ten selling singles in the land. Desperate for a hit? Seems like the question should be 'desperate for airplay' if you ask me. And sure, biased Madonna fan that I am - the current Timbaland and Pharrell produced stuff is blatantly focused on that, which is not what I would rather she was doing, but hey... it's her career, not mine. The other 'hit' argument that has me chuckling is that Billie Jean was a Top 10 hit in Spain last year. Haha. Oh dear. Surely a 're-entry'? No?
But charts are a Madonna fan's best friend - I mean, she's had 12 UK and US No.1 singles, more UK Top 10 hits than the Beatles and Stones put together. I mean, hell, here she has had 68 singles and out of those only 8 didn't hit the Top 10... over a 25 year that's incredible and will never be matched ever again, but then - Prince has only had one UK No.1 - does that mean his singles are less good than hers? Of course not. MJ's best friend is his past sales of his back catalogue. And good on him - they are great albums for the most part, and with every passing year without a new album, people who get into him are forced into buying the back catalogue. Makes me laugh - I wonder which is the more frustrating - being a Prince fan, with all this music you know is there recorded and unreleased, or being a MJ fan - just waiting...waiting...for anything! LOL Good God. No one (with the exception of a couple of individuals) is arguing that either Madonna or Michael Jackson is desperate for a hit. This thread has lasted as long as it has because of its transformation into a debate over who is more talented. And yes, your post was filled with biased statements. It made me sad that there are individuals out there whose lives (not talking about you, of course) are based on the success of their favorite popular entertainers. Who cares whether or not Madonna, Prince, or Michael Jackson has ten number one singles or zero? Who cares whether or not either or none sells ten million albums or not? Sad that some people care so much. | |
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