yeah, the thing with michael is that if he does something small the media starts making up rumors that he can't sell out anymore and blah blah blah and they expect so much for him....michael is on another level of stardom himself.he really only competes with himself.
[Edited 8/17/07 17:54pm]

I always think its fascinating to compare the holy trinity of 80's music. Prince, MJ and Madonna were the biggest stars of the 80's, and their careers have all gone in very different directions. Sorry for the long winded post but I respect all three greatly and would like to voice my opinions about them.

I think its always important to state that the three are very different people. Michael is a pure entertainer. He can write songs to a certain extent, maybe produce a little, but he was brought up from a very early age to entertain. He would put on a show that would give audiences exactly what they want. He’s written some incredible songs but id argue he just as reliant on a good producer as Madonna.

Prince is a genius. Perhaps not a vocalist or dancer of MJ's natural ability, but i think most of us on here would agree he makes up for that in other areas. His showmanship is second to none, and his abilities as a writer / producer / musician are waaay above MJ's. Prince has fine tuned his craft almost to perfection because it’s in his blood....I'm not so sure it is with MJ.

Madonna is certainly the least naturally gifted of the three, but again she makes up for it in other areas. Her drive, ambition, intelligence, career management, and artistic decision making is far superior to MJ or Prince. I know we're talking about music here, but all that has allowed HER to create a back catalogue of pop music that is extremely varied and consistent, and that shows considerable artistic growth and progression. She's a good all-round pop star- the quintessential celebrity, who has fused the possibilities of image and music together to iconic effect.

We could be here forever arguing the merits of each performer, who's the best blah blah blah - its not important and its purely subjective, it cant ever be concluded. I get different things from all artists. i think its most interesting to see where all are at today.

For sure MJ is burned out. I cant blame the guy. He has grown up in the most insane atmosphere one could imagine, and experienced a level of hysteria from fans the others never did, and this without question contributed to his fragile mental state. Initially he fed this hysteria as I do believe he became something of a megalomaniac.

Prince is still doing his thing as he ever did. Still looking for new innovative ways to get his music across, still producing music at a startling rate, and his performances are as good as ever. The consummate performer, and ultimate showman for me. He, like James Brown will be performing until he dies. He has a legacy which is totally defined by the music being produced today. His influence can be heard everywhere.

Madonna is still the same star that came through 25 years ago. Still constantly seeking success and approval in spite of all she’s achieved. Her relentless drive and work rate never ceases to amaze me. That in itself should be respected. She never repeats herself always striving for something different. Some call it a cynical ploy to tap into what’s hot right now, but i think she's more instinctive than that - gravitating to what she's feeling at that moment. She's touring at an alarming rate. Averaging an exhausting world tour every two years.

In answer to the question who wants a hit the most…..easy…..Madonna. She was the last one to have major chart success, but her drive means she’ll always crave it. Prince is too much a slave of his own madcap music world to make a hit now – although I still enjoy his music greatly. MJ can have a hit if he wants – he’s always got that crazed fanbase, but I don’t think he wants it….who can blame him?

CrozzaUK said:

A lot of points I agree and disagree with. But like you said, what would be the point of arguing back and forth. And this thread is ten pages long...
[Edited 8/14/07 4:59am]

mimi07 said:

The above is not my quote.

mrsnet said:

Unfortunately, I'm not making this up. I actually know or knew some of them. They can be seen in the front rows of concert footage. They’re everywhere he is. And yes their lives revolve around him meaning the jobs and holidays they take or don’t take, the money they save and the places they visit are mostly around Michael. Obviously they don’t, or at least didn’t, during his hey day, have much of a personal life either.

JackieBlue said:

No wonder he is burnt out. I know popular artists have these fantatics who follow them around, but I think with MJ it is on another level. In fact, I can at the top of my head imagine Elvis Presley and The Beatles having to deal with that kind of fame, with the difference being, of course, that the former died at a young age, and the latter split up, thus diffusing the level of fanaticism that continues to haunt Michael.

Rodya24 said:

The weird thing is it’s seem to become some sort of status thing amongst them. They show up to prove something to other fans or to say they’ve seen him X number of times or maybe they do it just to do it. After a certain age isn’t it just tired? To sit beneath his window and sing songs all night? Disturbing other guests and blocking up the sidewalk, chasing his car down when he leaves and racing to meet him at the next destination, then having to be at every show whether he’s performing or not but the fact that he’s going to be there means you’ll get a glimpse. It’s just bizarre especially after the first few times.

They seem to have this need to constantly defend him and prove to everyone else that he’s still loved, popular and the greatest ever. Oh yeah and that he still looks good.

musicismydrug said:

Oh really? Let's examine how "over" Madonna really is.In the past two years,she...


***released an album 'Confessions On A Dancefloor' that went to Number One in 29 countries (including the US) and sold over 10 million copies worldwide.

***went on a 3-month world tour that grossed $200 million,making it the most successful tour ever by a female artist.

***won a Grammy for Best Electronic/Dance Album


Call me crazy,but is it normal for "hasbeen" artists to accomplish amazing things like that?


Madonna will be "over" when she decides she wants to be over

One of the better threads in a long time people; like the org threads of the past.

JackieBlue said:

Co-sign. I get the impression that it is all an act. It's like the fans go out of their way to make as much noise and hysteria when ever he goes to places like London or Tokoyo just to prove he is still loved. What makes it funny is that they try to make it seem that the whole of Tokoyo are out going hysterical over him, when it's just mainly hardcore fans, who can't bear to see him ignore.

whatsgoingon said:

I’m sure he loves the places that act up for him.


From checking out the MJ > Elvis thread it seems that a lot of them haven’t grown up in a sense which is why some of them seem less than sophisticated. I suppose the child in Michael appeals to them. What can you say to he will always be magic?

You can’t really argue with fans like that.
[Edited 8/14/07 7:00am]
[Edited 8/14/07 7:01am]

JackieBlue said:

While TotalAlisa, among a number of others, imo is one of the hardcore fans for whom MJ "will always be magic," I think for some of them, the feeling is genuine (i.e. those who think "Heal The World" is one of his greatest songs; and for whom his career started with Thriller -- but I think TotalAlisa is more of a sophisticated fan than that -- or at least her knowledge of his songs is greater).

At the same time there are fans who go out of their way to prove to the world that "he is still loved," the noise that he generates in countries such as Japan and Korea are, I find, for the most part, real. Whenever MJ comes to Korea (not often as he goes to Japan), it is headline news. He often gets more attention and police escort than a foreign diplomat or a world leader. His last visit to Japan was the subject of various talk shows, etc. But with each passing year, the crowds of hardcore and casual fans and curious onlookers will diminish and are diminishing.

And yet, I find it extraordinary that he still generates the attention that he does. In particular, considering that he has not released a new studio album in six years.

Who agrees with me that after his death, there will be "MJ sightings?"
[Edited 8/14/07 10:33am]

I think, after Thriller, the bar of success for MJ was risen considerably high. With MJ, he couldn't just have an album that sold millions-he had to have an album that was a megasuccess. Look at Bad and Dangerous. Though they were considered blockbusters, there was talk of how far below sales fell from Thriller. So u can imagine how much of a disappointment both HIStory and Invincible were, despite there good sales. Because of this, I feel that his creativity was damaged. Instead of actually making great pop music for the love and passion of it, now he was just doing it to outsell everyone. For years, it didnt matter cause the music was still good. But that can only last for so long.

As for Madonna..one thing that one can say about her is that the passion is still there. Though she may not be as naturally talented as MJ, she still strives to not just make hit music, but also to take it to the limit. As a result, she has an extensive back catalogue that epitomizes innovative pop music. Sure, one can say that she doesn't compose it by herself. Well neither does MJ, at least for the most part. And at least 90% of the producers that worked with Madonna were all underground(like Stuart Price and William Orbit). Besides Quincy Jones, almost all the producers MJ has worked with have been the hitmakers of the time. Again, nothing wrong with that. In fact, I'll even give Teddy Riley credit for producing innovative stuff on Dangerous. But look at his work with Rodney Jerkins. Some of it was great pop music, but some of it was both derivative and dated. Like if MJ was now working with these producers just for hit records rather than for the art of making music. That's also how MJ differs from Prince. He still has the passion for making great music, even if sometimes it seems that it's just limited to being a great live performer(nothing bad about that, really. Look at James Brown).

Most importantly, the BIG difference is how they both managed there careers. I won't even get into MJ's mess. Prince has also made some big mistakes that he's only now recovering from. Madonna's never gone through the same public relations dilemmas as either of them. Sure, she did have her down periods with Erotica and American Life, but those down periods were sure as hell better than half the world thinking she was either a child molester(MJ) or a nutcase(Prince).

newskin69 said:

Agreed with everything you said.

newskin69 said:

I completely disagree with everything you said

First of all I hate when people try to compare different artists .

You have to understand that MJ and Prince's successes are strictly based on EXTRAORDINARY TALENT and GREAT MUSIC, not Madonna.

THAT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Those guys always had to come back with better music, better musical skills, better shows and better videos to keep the white audience.

MJ since thriller has always had to outperform himself to keep the public's interest.

Madonna's success has nothing to do with great music, great singing or great talent at all.

Madonna 's success is purely based on her icon image and her ability to re invent herself.

Nobody asks Madonna to release great Music, because she has never released great music in the first place. Nobody asks Madonna to make great performance because she's not a great performer in the first place, nobody asks her to sing, because she can't sing in the first place.

So that's MUCH more easier to take musical risks when you are Madonna because her success is NOT based on Music.

Everybody knows what happened when Prince decided to release ATWIAD and Parade. He lost a lot of his fans.
[Edited 8/17/07 17:59pm]

JackieBlue said:

ooops sorry

krayzie said:

So, are you sayin' that Like a Prayer, Take a bow, Ray of light or Music are not good songs?
Perhaps the mainstream crowd is lazy enough to love a pop-dance song, but they aren't stupid. It's the same reason which I just can't stop loving you was a Nº1 in 1988 while Cry was a flop in 2001.

krayzie said:

So, judging your last comment, you must think that Mick Jagger is the worst performer around...

madonna sings well and has had shining moments on some songs, and her dancing is good too, although I agree she's not the same as mj and prince. Her shows are famous for the stage sets and costumes and for how she presents the music visually, as well as the dancing. I have to give it to her for singing live most of the time too. Her current albums are also fab and I enjoy them more than prince's current stuff, I'm not going to lie.

krayzie said:

Madonna has had several great singles, but I would have to be joking if I were to label her a EXTRAORDINARY MUSICAL talent or even a musical talent. And please, Madonna fans (it is obvious that several of you are her fans judging from your public profiles and posts), stop comparing her musical talents to that of MJ and Prince. It is embarrassing. And no, I do not consider either of these men to be "musical geniuses." Time will tell if their music will continue to be admired, respected, and even remembered one hundred years from now.

Moreover, this thread is not about the talents of these artists but whether or not MJ or Madonna is desperate for a hit. IMO, neither is, since Madonna will have a hit regardless of how her singles chart in the US, and MJ does not seem to be desperate to release ANYTHING.

And, krayzie is not an insane MJ and Prince fan either. Reading his previous posts, he also seems to find contemptible several of their actions in the past.

Who cares if Madonna works with "underground" producers? Well, Madonna fans. And Quincy Jones was a hitmaking producer in the late '70s when Off The Wall was made. I will pick Off The Wall or Purple Rain over the entire Madonna catalogue with its "innovative" material crafted by "underground" prdoucers if f I had to make a choice between the two. And yes, I am much more of a MJ and Prince fan. At least I am upfront with where I stand with Madonna unlike some of her fans with MJ.

On a final note, I think it is interesting that a number of Madonna fans go on and on about how difficult it is for Madonna to work in a sexist industry, but often forget the privileges of her being white -- a fact that krayzie alluded to with his statement about MJ and Prince and their attempts to keep their white audience. I wonder how most Americans would view a woman as upfront and controversial with her sexuality, as loud in her opinions, if that woman was a person of color. And no, I am not referring to Janet Jackson, since she has never struck me as being confident or assertive in her opinions, but has been in the past and even now is IMO a "whining temptress." And yes, I like several of her songs just as I like some of the material put out by Madonna over the past two decades.
[Edited 8/17/07 21:51pm]
[Edited 8/18/07 2:28am]

Rodya24 said:

True, but if any pop star from that generation deserves to be called a musical genius it is Prince. I personally wince when I hear that phrase applied to MJ who I consider more of an entertainment genius a la Walt Disney.


Yes, and that reflects the fact that Madonna fans suffer from selective memory syndrome (in fairness MJ fans are nursing the same condition). The fact is Madonna benefited HUGELY from being a woman. Who got her her record deal? An influential DJ who she was fucking (Mark Kamins). Who got her her first hit? An even more influential DJ/producer who she dumped Kamins for (Jellybean). A man would not have had the option of fucking his way into their hearts. That means he would have had to rely on old fashioned things like oh, I don't know, talent?
[Edited 8/18/07 5:26am]

I love that MJ is so under-rated. It makes him even more special. Not a genius? Please. He is the definition of the genius. And the longer people choose not to give him the credit he deserves as a singer, songwriter. producer and musician (he gets enough credit as a dancer and performer) the more special he will be to the people who really appreciate that he is probably the most genius mind in popular music.

midnightmover said:

Well, to be fair to Madonna and other females in the music industry, I am sure all of them have to deal with sexism. But I do not want to argue with Madonna fans (I am not talking about you, midnightmover -- btw, are you a Madonna fan? Judging from your posts, I am going to guess you like some of her music, but that is about it.) over whether or not she benefited as a woman, because I have zero knowledge about how she started in show business other than the fact that she was in a band in NYC, and debuted in 1982.

But, I do think Madonna and other white entertainers benefit from the simple fact of being white. Of course, gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. are experienced simultaneously, so it is not just about race.

DarlingDiana said:

Well, to be fair, I think the word "genius" is overrused. It is hard to label someone as a musical genius when those same words are used to describe Mozart whose music has been celebrated for over two centuries. But if it makes you feel better, I believe Leonard Bernstein once called Michael Jackson a "creative genius."

Rodya24 said:

Allow me to fill in the blanks for you. She fucked a guy who had his own band (Dan Gilroy). He taught her to strum a guitar and she joined the band. She fucked another guy who helped her form another band and also produced her demos (Steve Bray). She was financed by a lesbian manager who she french kissed and flirted with for about a year (Camille Barbone). She then fucked a DJ who got her a record deal. She then fucked another DJ who got her a hit (Holiday). Now you know all you need to know.


I have nostalgic memories from the 80s of loving her songs and videos as a kid. I have horny memories of wanting to fuck her brains out up until 1993. I still love a lot of her early material, particularly the Like A Prayer album which is one of the best pop albums ever made (I could make a serious case for it being better than Thriller, which is not as consistent or cohesive). She also made some brilliant videos. Unfortunately she ditched her collaborators in the 90s, started recording less outside songs, and her music suffered for it. She also started getting way too pretentious and boring.

midnightmover said:

I was born in the late '80s so have almost no memories of growing up with her music or the tales surrounding her beginnings in show business. I thought people were being jealous when a number of them told me "she slept for tracks," but I guess I was wrong. Wow... So, with which album do you think she lost the "magic touch"? I apologize for asking you question after question, but you seem to know a lot about music.

Rodya24 said:

Erotica in 1992. Not a bad album, but just very ordinary. Up until then she had a run of classic singles which I don't think anyone has matched. Erotica marked the end of that and her popularity nosedived before bouncing back in 1998. There are some Madonna fans around here who will tell you it's underrated. It's not, but it was much better than the extremely generic and boring Bedtime Stories which came after it in 1994. Again, there are Madonna fans around here who will tell you that's underrated too. It's not.

krayzie said:

Bullshit.Madonna proved a long time ago that she can make amazing music.She proved herself as a serious artist in the late 80s.If she hadn't done this,she would have been over a long time ago.We wouldn't be here having this discussion right now.What you don't wanna admit is...Madonna matters.She can't be easily dismissed.In 1983,critics predicted she would be a one-hit wonder.Wonder who's laughing now?

SoulAlive said:

^^^your 8,666 post as SoulAlive

whatsgoingon said:

Quoted for truth. Its sad that so many people forget how vocally gifted Michael Jackson is. (I liked that this was mentioned briefly in the Number Ones 2003 special). I ran into this Elvis fan on YouTube that told me that 'Michael can't even sing,'

Theres so many good, intelligent posts in here that I won't even bother to quote them all. I like this thread. You could never have a civil, mature discussion like this on a general public board. I guess seeing that this is a music-oriented forum but still.

It pains me that I won't be able to hear Michael's beautiful vocals because of his endless hacking on the nostrils. Lets face it, its getting hard to breath out of that nose of his. Every time he speaks, he sounds madd nasally. Especially in that James Brown 2003 BET Lifetime Achievement Award speech.

Oh yeah, and MJbots/overzealous zelots fans are disliked by MJ fans too. Come to think of it, I think we hate them more than non-MJ fans do LOL.

JackieBlue said:

Oh God don't even remind me of those people. I got in trouble with them a few weeks ago.

There was this topic about "is Michael the most handsome man in the world?" and I simply said that he "was" in my post. (I continued on for maybe a few more sentences, in response to one might refer to as a delusional fan, in particular, who said they just didn't understand why other people think he is ugly). I wish I could take it back, because the aftermath was like the plague. TWO PAGES of backlash. A few of them said, and I quote, "You've seen too many tabloids and are talking shit." I'm like, are you a caricature of an MJ fan? It was embarrassing just to read those words.

All I said was that Michael isn't attractive anymore since the 70s/80s/early 90s and they [not all] practically burned me to the stake. Many of them maintain that he looks the same, and that he's just 'older'. Okay, black don't crack (or maybe in Michael's case, it does. I'm so bad...I love Mike, I'm just messin') so what kind of bullshit reasoning is that? Come on, Michael was still pretty looking in 'Remember The Time' and he most def. does NOT look like that anymore. And no lace front weave. Very important thing to note (although I can't hate, his weave game is hotter than Beyonce's and Tyra's.) They need to face it, Michael looks like V for Vendetta now and theres nothing he can do to revert back to his prettyness.

Rodya24 said:

While I don't want to linger on the thought of Michael's passing very long, I must say. When that time comes, it will be hysteria unprecedented (yes that includes you, Elvis). And for a black man to generate that much power (yes, a black man. Albino whatever you want to call him, he's still black) is truly a feat that I cannot see anyone else doing in the future. I think thats why the bulk of the Elvis Presley/The Beatles generation do NOT approve of the fact that this black man has not only surpassed their Messiah(s) but owns the rights to many of their songs on top of that. Before anyone comments on his appearance, know this. Whether Michael looks like his Llama, an albino transexual (or his former sexual chocolate self ) people will always know that he is a black man and that bothers them.

Sometimes I wonder how would people react if Michael just left his skin repigment and walk around looking like a spotted cow. Just to shut people up. I know the possibilities of that happening are no more greater than Jordan Chandler, who is now 26 years old, going on Larry King Live and tell the world that Michael is not a child molester, but its an intriguing thought in my mind I wonder how he'd look like if he grew out his perm?




[Edited 8/18/07 11:24am]