Moonbeam said:

I Respect this Post because though I dig far More Other Female Artists overall History is gonna Have Madonna High on the List for Her Music&Impact.what alot of folks forget you have to be doing something right to hang around as long as She has.I haven't been a Big fan since the late 80's of Her's but I always keep a Eye&Ear on her Stuff.

mistermaxxx said:

Spare me this rhetoric. If I wanted popularity I wouldn't have said a thing at all. Sorry, it ain't me, and never will be me to care.


You still made it a competition.


Who gives a rat's ass about what female Prince couldn't wait to work with? He worked with Vanity, Appolonia, that Electra broad, his own wife - you going to try and tell me any of them have some serious musical acumen? He wanted to work with them to get his rocks off. If that's your defense of Madonna...help us Lord.

Supernova said:

it seems Madonna to quote Sinatra has got you Under Her Skin? Prince needed Vanity,Appolonia,Carmen,Ingrid,etc.. to get Material out.His working with them is a part of His Legacy for Better or for worse?He thought alot of Her to not only work with Her on Her "Like a Prayer" Album but also to Co Write a Track with Her&Play on others.they are Fans of Each Other's Work.they each are Important Pop Artists.but though Prince is more overall Talented than Madonna IMHO, Madonna is a Important Musical Force that hasn't lasted 20 Plus Years just on T&A alone.

Damn I feel like Madonna's Lawyer up in Here or something? but I will give Props where they are due.I Ain't a Big Fan of Her's, but you can't even ignore Her Impact on the Music World.

mistermaxxx said:

Not exactly. There have been a myriad of threads about Madonna here from time to time. I rarely say anything, or even read them all for that matter.


Well that's not the issue really, is it?


Prince is a fan of a lot of women who are willing to help him bust a nut. His past history proves that, I'm not saying he's like that today, because I don't know. And then he's a fan, and more importantly, has been influenced by Joni Mitchell, who never felt the need to go that route.

Fan of Madonna? OK.

Influenced by Madonna? No.

Influenced by Joni Mitchell? In some ways yes.

The music is the lasting legacy.

The Prince connection in all this is a weak defense because of the females who he has worked with in the past. Madonna was letting it ALL hang out during that time - you think that had any bearing on his curiousity? She was his counterpoint in sexual provocativeness/suggestiveness - it had nothing to do with music. If he thought she was all that great why is there no influence there, yet there is a Joni Mitchell influence?

With the exception of Sheila E. and Stevie Nicks, it's only been within the last several years that Prince has worked with someone of substantial musical talent that was female - outside of his band.

And Mavis Staples of course.

Cut me...
[This message was edited Sun Sep 29 0:31:25 PDT 2002 by Supernova]

Supernova said:

maybe we should ask Prince about His Madonna Influence on His Work? I have a Disc by the Funk Band Kleer there song "Tonight" has been Sampled&Looped by alot of Rap Artists&R&B Artists well anyway they were talking about how they were just getting started on a Drum Machine&How they didn't know how to Program it well anyway guess who showed them how to use it? Madonna did.as for Women with Musical Substance Wendy&Lisa,Mavis Staples,Jill Jones,Candy Duffler, ,Sussanah Melvoin,Rosie Gaines,Bonie Boyer,have Substance from back in the day.you can think Madonna doesn't represent Music but I ask you again what is Her Occupation in the Music Business? Her Resume will Say Artist,Musician,Entertainer which are all Connected.Joni on certain things but His use of Rosie&Boni would lead Me to Believe more of Aretha Franklin than Joni IMHO.on the Female tip on His Work early on I could say Minnie Riperton,Chaka Khan had a Influence on His Work as well.it depends on how you accept&look at the picture.but nevertheless Madonna has been on his Brain for a really long time.He Himself in that Rolling Stone Cover Story&Interview Gave Her Props as a Artist back in 90.you call my Points Weak, but I say yours are Weaker because Madonna is a Musical Artist Period.She isn't a Milli Vanilli Mime.She represents A Force to Her Hard-Core Fans.tell Cats from the Breakfast Club Madonna isn't a Music Artist? She has Limits but She also Has Her own Progression&Sound.She has a Voice on the Music She does IMHO.Once Again Madonna is a Music Artist first&foremost.the Bottom-Line when you enter that Business is that no matter how you present your Material your Job is to Be Successful&leave your Mark or be sent Packing.20 Years Later we are still talking about Madonna.I'll Bet Cash Money 20 Years from now we will still be talking about Madonna the Music Artist?

mistermaxxx said:

Really? Good for her.


This is where you make it clear you did not READ what I posted. Or else you wouldn't go into that spiel. Keep up now.


I've explained that above. I guess you didn't read that either. So did Nep2nes for that matter. Good Lord, never did I think I'd see the day...



You do know that Puff's resume says "producer" too, though he's many times that in name ONLY? Big deal. She has a title the industry peddles around. They call Puffy an artist too, are we going to debate about him?


Oh good.


What would lead you to believe that? Did anyone say she didn't have a mind of her own at all? This seems like defensive projection.


You basically said some of the same things I already did in essence.

Supernova said:

Puffy is a Talent Scout more than anything else&maybe a DJ at best.but we all know He has Chucky Thompson&Other Ghost Writers&Producers.Madonna is a Artist who is in a Business where She has to Hustle for Her Loot plain&Simple.no matter how you dress it up everybody Signed to a Major Label has to adhere to all the Stipulations in there Contracts.She is providing a Service.like Ice T. said about Prince having to work that Warner's BLVD Corner well Madonna had to get out there&Hustle as well.you see at the end of the day no matter who has more overall Talent,Impact,etc.. they are all tied to that Machine that is the Industry.She got Her Game from Michael&Prince&they both have been inspired by Her in some detail or fashion.when People are supporting you as long as People have been behind Madonna She is doing something right.sooner or later you have to acknowledge Her Musical Impact? there is so much to being a Artist&Madonna from what I can tell has Her Stuff together on it.many trends have come&gone since She came on the scene 20 years back&yet She Still is Fresh amongest Her Hardcore Fans now what do you suppose the answer to that is? T&A,Hype,Shock Value went out with Her overall back 10 Years ago.A Lesser Artist would have been Burried behind "Erotica"&the Book or even that Sorry Ass "Dick Tracy" Soundtrack aside from a Couple of Songs.but again this Chick knows Da Game.gotta give it up for Her on that alone.

mistermaxxx said:

And this has really nothing to do with anything I said. It applies to everyone that sells records.


Redundant.


I don't have to acknowledge anything I don't feel is true at all. Just as you don't have to acknowledge Springsteen's relevance at all.


I could say the same thing for Springsteen, but you'd never agree. Just as I won't agree that Madonna is a MUSICAL ARTIST.

I've never denied her impact at all. I deny any sort of lasting musical influence/impact that the other ladies I mentioned have. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

The other stuff you'll never be able to sell me on, just as nobody is able to sell you on Springsteen's greatness - whether it was/is past or in the present. I think we're even and our work is done here.

Supernova said:

you really think rock music was so great right before Nirvana? Guns & Roses? Warrant? Nelson? Poison? Motley Crue? to quote Dr. Phi... "GET REAL!" Nirvana sucks because watered-down, fourth-generation wannabe's like Matchbox 20 don't know how to do it right?

but anyway, back to Madonna.


hmmm. obviously Madonna's provoking YOU to think, or you wouldn't have so much to say about her, positive or negative, 20 years after she burst onto the scene

but still...

1984 Lucky Star, the navel shot, got people thinking/talking

1984 Like a Virgin... got people thinking/talking

1986 Papa Don't Preach, got people thinking/talking

1988 Letterman w/ Sandra Bernhardt, got people thinking/talking

1989 Like a Prayer, got people thinking/talking

1989 Express Yourself, got people thinkin/talking

1990 Hanky Panky, got people thinking/talking

1990 Justify My Love, got people thinking/talking

1991 Truth or Dare, got people thinking/talking

1992 Sex/Erotica, got people thinking/talking

1993 Girlie Show, got people thinking/talking

1994 Letterman, the infamous 'fuck' spewing, got people thinking/talking

1995 Bedtime Story song & video, got people thinking/talking

1996 Evita/baby, got people thinking/talking

1998 Ray of Light... spirituality, new sound... got people thinking/talking

2001 What It Feels Like For A Girl video, got people thinking/talking

there are so many more, but these are Madonna's greatest hits, so to speak, when it comes to provoking thought.

for example, how many women before Madonna, particularly female artists, were able to have a sex life? to admit they had sex? liked to have sex? got to be both exalted and banally human while talking about it?


how much attention, before Madonna, did issues like gay rights and AIDS awareness get talked about in a serious way?


before Madonna, single mothers were a punchline to a Dan Quayle/Murphy Brown joke.

the fact is, Madonna has so revolutionized not only popular culture, but AMERICAN culture, much like the Beatles did that it's often easy to obscure or glaze over exactly the commotions she caused throughout the 80's and 90's. but without them, we would probably be living in a much more uptight society than we do now, especially for women, and particularly for female artists.

bleh. more tomorrow when i feel like sifting through all this anti-Madonna propaganda

Supernova said:


Well actually that's not true. VH1 ran a similar poll about 2-3 years ago called the '100 greatest women of rock 'n' roll'. They were voted on by the most prominent critics, journalists and musicians in the industry and Madonna faired very well. Certain mainstream pop artists that you'd expect to make a list like this based on popularity were not included such as Mariah, Celine, etc. I remember nearly the entire top 10 and it went something like this:

1. Aretha Franklin
2. Tina Turner
3. Janis Joplin
4. Bonnie Raitt
5. Joni Mitchell
6. Billie Holiday
7. Chrissie Hynde
8. Madonna
9. Annie Lennox
10. Carole King

So I think it's fairly safe to say that Madonna is not only admired by the public but also by her peers.

AaronForever said:


my thoughts exactly.

AaronForever said:

two words...Elizabeth Taylor..two more words...Harvey Milk...two more words...Rock Hudson

i think your showing your age there aaron...Maddy did not start the gay rights movement nor did she bring aids issues to the forefront...the only reason you know about her activities is because she uses charities and causes as an additional marketing tool, for herself.

and as far as your single mother rant, well...Julia was a show about a single mother and that ran in the 70s. The joke wasnt on single mothers but *on* Dan Quayle...tisk tisk... :LOL:

AaronForever said:

you know what though...i can angree with this, from a cultural viewpoint..im really *not* a madonna hatter...im just not a madonna *fam*.

and from this thread, there seems to be many o many maddy fams...heheheheee

oh oh oh...co-sign most of what supernova said..

SkletonKee said:

Taylor picked up the torch from Madonna and ran with it, but Elizabeth Taylor was not an activist before Madonna. In fact, she's credited Madonna for piquing her interest in it.



no, she actually doesn't. she never promotes these things or brings them up in interviews. and i did not say that she was the first. i'm saying she brought it to the masses. to middle-America. i live in middle America. where are you from?



true, it was. but there was still a major stigma to it, or it wouldn't have been part of the joke at all.

Moonbeam said:

Umm..Madonna is just ONE of the women who made it ok for womens expression...dont get it twisted. There are several millions who were influenced by Aretha, Dietrich, Hynde, etc (even Hilary lol). Madonna is media ..and there are millions of women both prominent and not so prominent, doing their own thing who have other female influences than Madonna...I bet if you polled women in America and mentioned Madonna as playing a role in their livelihood, theyd laugh. Not to take away from any of Madonnas work.

AaronForever said:

okay, ill just address all your comments here...she doesnt mention her charitable work, huh? well, in an earlier post (on this thread) you mentioned Maddona's infamous appearance on David Letterman w/ Sandra Bernhardt..And what was she there doing? discussing an aids danceathon...

there was no stigma against single mothers...maybe during the 60s or the 70's...but by the 80's single mothers were the norm and easily accepted...Dan Quayles comments were in responce to the normalization of single motherhood, not the stigma against it...he was trying to get *back* to basic family values of old... you want to talk about stigmas? think about in the 50's and 60's when woman who had children out of wedlock were sent *away* while pregnant...either the child was given up for adoption or raised as a sibbling of the mother..madonna had nothing to do with breaking those barriers down... only thing she did was make it cool to be old and have a child...

now as far as her bringing things to middle america, okay...maybe im a lil biased being raised in Californa (blah blah, liberal, blah blah, progressive)...and even more so now that i live in the SF area..., but, your not middle america yourself gay boy..remember, you've got your gay bias going for ya...and you ask your straight middle american who tought them more about aids awareness and they would probably respond with Rock Hodson or Magic Johnson...

LMAO

I love to sit back and watch people argue,debate,analyze and try to figure out Madonna's impact on the world.I'm tempted to add my two cents,but y'all already know how much I love Madonna,so I'll remain silent on the issue.

Carry on!

okay, ill just address all your comments here...she doesnt mention her charitable work, huh? well, in an earlier post (on this thread) you mentioned Maddona's infamous appearance on David Letterman w/ Sandra Bernhardt..And what was she there doing? discussing an aids danceathon...[quote]

she was getting interest in it. she wasn't out there tooting her own horn.



you really think he was alone? i suggest you try living out here between the coasts, where the majority of Americans live.



again, this doesn't go back to the 50's and the 60's. it goes back to the 80's, in certain and LAREGE parts of this country.



i am middle America, Kee, gay or not. i'm not defined by my sexuality. see, i actually have to LIVE here. perhaps i'm more enlightened than many of those around me, but i actually have some perspective on what people out here see, what they think, how they feel, what they do.

Rock Hudson taught no one here about AIDS. it wasn't getting enough attention at the time to garner any widespread change of mind in middle America. in fact, i've found that people turned on him when they found out he was gay/had AIDS. even with the enlightenment that's come with the last decade, there are still people who smirk at Rock Hudson because it happened to him before there was much awareness. as for Magic Johnson, his case was revealed well into an era where there was more education and more attention brought to the subject by people like Madonna, Elizabeth Taylor and that Glaser guy.

DavidEye said:

no, go ahead. i grow weary of trying to educate people on what they should already know lost causes, all of them.

AaronForever said:

i'll agree with your first sentence...but, people learned about aids because of him...sure, it wasnt positive... and you forget, *you* follow Madonna, but middle america doesnt (for the most part)..thats why i jokingly referenced your sexuality...do you really think middle america mom and pop ran out to get that latest madonna interview in vogue? nooo...these are the same people that despiss her and all she represents...The Glasers, ill agree with...her speech at the Democratic Convention moved many..But, I dont think Madonna has ever had a platform *that big* to be heard...not one to your middle of american loving kin..

and i still say your age lacks perspective to even discuss single mother evolution..how old were u then?

its sorta like the thread about Justin T being more talented then Prince..without perspective, you just cant understand...


to say that the single mothers of the 80's had stigma's against them is just a joke...expecially when compared to other woman (expecially in the 50's and 60's)...

and this is why i hate debating with Madonna *Fams*..they are soo blinded in their admiration, they tend to ignore common sense when defending her..

but i still love ya aaron...

With all the excitement over Madonna's new song,people are forgetting a few other projects she's involved in...


***She has a cameo in the "Die Another Day" film,playing a lesbian fencing instructor.

***Her own movie "Swept Away" comes out in late October.

***She continues to work on her next CD,tentatively scheduled for a March 2003 release.

DavidEye said:

oh yeah, and im sure you all fams will be saying this is the greatest film ever when it comes out and her performance rocks..

this despite the fact that the film has been universally panned thus far.

SkletonKee said:

actually, it hasn't. but I'm not thrilled with this movie, nor am I thrilled with most of her others. a Madonna movie directed by Guy Ritchie doesn't really sound like my cup of tea

SkletonKee said:

3 years younger than you. so don't pull that age perspective shit on me.



i'm sorry. show me the part where you say that you live where i do?



whatever
[This message was edited Sun Sep 29 12:12:08 PDT 2002 by AaronForever]

A stupid answer for another stupid poll

AaronForever said:

You're reading too much into what I'm saying. Overall I don't think it's been "great" since sometime in the 70s. But even compared to the 80s (another decade I think is overrated overall) the 90s were worse for rock music.


See, this is where you're going to have to get real, Aaron. You're talking about the worst whose careers were MOSTLY enhanced most by regular MTV rotation - which really tells me a lot about your adoration of Madonna to begin with.

Personally, I think GnR's debut album was pretty darn good for a rock album. It was an antidote to the Bon Jovi's, and other hair bands of the 80s. GnR's angst was that they seemed to live it as opposed to anything Bon Jovi or other groups of their ilk were peddling, and it seemed to come out in their music. Much like the Stones during the 60s.

Neil Young, Springsteen (even without Born In The USA), The Clash, Tom Petty, Van Halen, Living Colour, John Hiatt, Peter Gabriel, REM, Sonic Youth, U2, Los Lobos, John Cougar, Midnight Oil, The Pretenders, Police, Elvis Costello, and yes that guy named Prince, and even Bob Dylan and the Stones released some of their most defining work of that decade. THAT rock music is superior to me than the overall climate of 90s rock.


Sure, she's provoked me to think about why her career has turned out the way it did. Unfortunately her music has never provoked me to think the same way a more important artist would. The things I've heard people say she puts on the table have been on that table for years, it's just been pushed to the backburner for a while. She's not the flashpoint of anything.


WOW! Are you familiar with Bessie Smith??? Apparently not. Are you familiar with some of Aretha's earliest music??? Apparently not. Mae Glover?? Apparently not. The original "Nasty Girl" Betty Davis??? Apparently not.


You're really funny Aaron.
The first thing about AIDS being publicly discussed was in 1981 when America finally found out about this disease that was starting to affect a lot of people. If memory serves I think it was a significant article in one of the major city newspapers like maybe New York Times or LA Times. It wasn't a mainstream subject, unfortunately, until Rock Hudson got it. Then all of a sudden Hollywood notices there's this "new" disease.

As far as gay rights; you've got to be kidding? I first noticed a lot of public people coming out of the closet after Slick Willie decided that gays should be able to serve in the military - though the "don't ask don't tell" policy ultimately failed. With all of the Slickster's faults there's no denying he was a gay advocate. That opened the floodgates a lot. MORE than anything in the 1980s. Left and right there were people coming out of the closet, and it wasn't as stigmatized as before. How much did gay rights issues receive prior to the military brouhaha about it?

Meshell has never denied her bisexuality.
kd Lang has (as far as I know) never denied being a lesbian.
Melissa Ethridge very publicly had David Crosby (bleh) give up the sperm for herself and Julie what'shername's baby.
Rob Halford of Judas Preist never came out of the closet during JP's heyday in the 80s - he did in the late 90s.
I could think of more if I looked it up.

But prior to Slick Willie's administration...
there's Freddie Mercury, whose lifestyle wasn't really that covert (at least in England), and it took Magic Johnson's announcement in late 1991 (I'm sure he was influenced by Madonna!) to coax him to tell the world he was dying of AIDS.

But remember: we're talking about people with public lives already (with the exception of military soldiers). Not those gays and lesbians in the world in general.


I'm sorry, but unfortunately single mothers are still stigmatized in this society. Murphy Brown's demise seemed to coincide with that after people tuned in in record numbers because of the pub Quayle gave to her show.


Madonna and the Beatles in the same sentence.

I said:

TRON said:

You're right TRON, I remember that poll. But I'm talking about musicians (and recording artists - whatever you want to call them) ONLY being polled. And not the newbies.

Btw, Chrissie Hynde being above Madonna is the way it should be.