I have had a lot of talk at the Motown boards about what would've happened had Berry Gordy allowed Florence Ballard more leads with the group alongside Diane in the Supremes during their glory years. You think it would've helped the Supremes to gain a bigger R&B fan base than they supposedly did just under Diane's wing? I'm not trying to be a revisionist (though it sounds like revisionism, don't it?) but I've always wondered that since I have heard Flo sing (and she sings great IMO), I always wonder if BG had allowed the Supremes to have multi leads like the Temptations, would the Supremes story have been less dramatic and troubling as it is? An inquiring mind wants to know what Y'ALL think.

Flo's voice, as powerful as it was, was too "churchy" (translation - black) for the crossover audience Berry Gordy craved. Diana Ross' voice was kind of flavorless - it never overpowered the song. It gelled with the material they were recording at the time. Florence Ballard's voice didn't fit in with Berry's "master plan".

Darlene Love had a "churchy" voice as well and it blended magically with all the Spector material. So did Tina Turner's. Imagine Flo Ballard's voice with Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound". That would've been intriguing...

JesseDezz said:

I agree. Flo just didn't fit in with Motown, lol.

Ya know what? At the risk of sounding cheesy, this discussion reminds me of the Dreamgirls' scene where Curtis said to Deena that he chose her over Effie becoz her voice got "no personality".

Thats what Florence was, her talent got TOO much of a personality that it was hard for Berry to mold her and package her into something he could sell to White America(that was his target audience).

In Diane's defence though, she was the ONLY one who had the huge ambition(which is something bigger than what Berry could've done) Mary was busy enjoying the moment and Florence - who should've been the leader since she founded the group - got too jaded with the whole thing and gave it the nonchalant treatment.

Harlepolis said:

I also have to add that Flo was going through emotional problems and her being ousted from the Supremes added to it. I still think she'd been a star if promoted right, solo or as Supremes lead singer. It just seems unfortunate that while she suffered, Diane seemed to drift further apart and Mary was (and still is) in la-la land.

JesseDezz said:

Indeed. Phil Spector had interesting approach to 60's music no doubt. The work he did with Tina Turner's solo hit River Deep Mountain High was excellent.

this thread is very interesting, and a great one i might add

I had read somewhere before that it Diane who wanted the fame more so, than Florence who in fact was the better singer in the group.....but I guess Barry saw the drive in Diane and therefore, stuck to her.

Wasn't Diana married to the boss of Motown? Surely that wouldn't have hindered her progress.

Exetergirl said:

Berry and Diane never officially married though they gave off that vibe before Diane left Motown in 1981.

Timmy84 said:

Berry was already happily married when they met as Diana described in an interview on TV as well Jet/Ebony. Diana left Motown to go to RCA after contract dispute. But later rejoined in the 90's.
[Edited 7/8/07 9:22am]

MsLegs said:

He and his wife must have not been that happily married if Berry and Diane kept fooling around during the Supremes heyday. Diane be LYING! *coughhomewreckercough*

Timmy84 said:

Hence, he's still married to he's wife til this day and not the mistress with love child. He was in full mind and not controlled by drug substances and didn't feel pressure by the Mistress religious affliations to engage in a shot gun marriage to the mistress like some people. Think about it.

MsLegs said:

Diane probably thought Berry would dump his wife and really marry her. When Berry refused to leave his wife, she went off to marry (and date just) the white boys. It wasn't even a FULL year when Diane married her first husband.

Timmy84 said:

Read the Jet/Ebony Interview, unlike some misguided stargazed Mistresses, she gave up on that pipedream real quick as her career with the Supremes picked up. And that's why her solo career was successful and continues to thrive because she knew her role with him and understood how the industry runs .

Timmy84 said:

I doubt Berry is still married to the same woman though. I do believe in a way Diana was ideal for the Motown sound. Berry never made it a secret that he wanted his music to be crossover material, that meant watering down the sound, and Diana voice had a neutral sound to it, which was prefect for Gordy venture.

By the Way, haven't you heard that Berry didn't want to release "Whats Going On" because it was too gritty/soulful or whatever. He didn't feel it would sit easy with white audiences.

whatsgoingon said:

I think EVERYBODY knows that now, those that know the Motown story. When I first heard about it, I shook my head bitterly at Berry. I remember exactly what Berry said in the interview:

Berry Gordy (on hearing "What's Going On"): "I didn't feel comfortable with Marvin wanting to do something that talked about the war and the environment and the inner city and all of these issues and I said 'Marvin, why would you want to ruin your career? I mean you are the sex symbol of the '60s and '70s, and yet you wanna do something and ruin your career?'"

Marvin Gaye: "there were some critical disagreements over it between Berry and I and some mild violent disagreements between Berry and myself over me releasing the album."

Some say he was presented with the album, others say it was just the SONG "What's Going On". I think it was the song, because Marvin recorded WGO (the song) in 1970 (with a stubble ) and Berry told him "the song sucks, it's the most unremarkable piece of shit I ever heard." But Marvin told him proficiently: "I ain't about to give in until you put out the song." And Berry never released it, I think a Motown A&R man in Los Angeles released it without Berry's consent and Berry was gonna pull the plug as soon as he heard it... then he heard how it was becoming the fastest-selling single Motown ever put out. Then when it went to #1 (R&B) on the charts, Berry called Marvin and told him to produce an album of similar material.

Took only ten days in March to complete the entire "What's Going On" album but it shows the resilience Marvin showed. So when the song and the album became a hit, he came out with flying colors and forced Berry to eat crow.

Diane never struck me as wanting to "take control" until the period she went into making "diana".

Timmy84 said:

Amen to that. Motown, Stax, and the Gamble and Huff sound is the soundtrack of most Brothers & Sisters lives.

MsLegs said:

Yep, yep. Soul music in the '60s and '70s provided a soundtrack to a lot of our lives, even those that weren't even there (moi) when it first came out. I feel an emotional connection to it.

Berry's opposition against WGO confirms my belief that he's a BIG caterer of the "mainstream audience".

In the "Songs In The Key Of Life" DVD, he voiced his disapproval against the album @ 1st

On the other hand(to his defence), an entire double LP set with new songs was quite a gamble back in the 70s.

Still, his stunt against Marvin Gaye's "Love Man" was and still is unforgivable

Harlepolis said:

Berry never agreed with Marvin on many things and I think when Marvin "conformed" to doing '60s R&B, he did it in a way that spited Berry because Marvin just had too much soul to become a "polished" pop artist. Sure he had the polished look down pat but in every Marvin song, he showed so much versatility and grit that that's why his 1970s and 1980s recordings were so special. Berry not releasing "You're the Man" and "Love Man" albums was a problem on his part. He knew how to bring an artist to the top but when an artist wanted to express himself (like Marvin and Stevie), he had a serious problem with that. So eff Berry!

Timmy84 said:

SAY WHAT?

I didn't know that "You're The Man" was part of a shelved album

Good lord I don't know how such an info passed me by.

But you know how Marvin ranted on how he wanted to be a Nat Cole crooner, well, when he finally had the chance to do a "ballads" album, the "Vulnerable" album, he showcased his growth. I just heard his "Why Did I Choose You" on YouTube and it was totally different from the version I got in my collection (I don't have that "Vulnerable" album but that song was one of the songs in the track listing) and he took his multi-vocal approach to it and turned the song out. I was BLOWN away at the end. If Marvin was gonna do it any way, he was gonna do it HIS WAY. The '60s Marvin and the '70s Marvin were two totally different cats!!!

Harlepolis said:

Yep, "You're the Man" was shelved because Berry felt uncomfortable with Marvin doing a 360 to what he did on "What's Going On". Instead of saying "we got to find a way to bring loving and understanding here today", he was saying "politics and hypocrites are turning us all into lunatics" and the album was very political. It was to have featured "Where Are We Going?" (the fabulous song written by the two-halves of the Corporation), "Piece of Clay" (which was an autobiographical family-type of song which Marvin attacked parents for being too critical of their children, that was the gospel/rock-infused track), and "The World Is Rated X", which was featured on compilations and talked more about the ills of the inner city. True they weren't written by Marvin but they were truly some of his best socially conscious songs and Berry was SCARED! He thought Marvin was becoming too radical so he shelved it. Marvin wasn't pleased at all so you know.
[Edited 7/8/07 11:22am]

Timmy84 said:

Wow, I never realised that they weren't married. I kind of picked up that she and Marvin were Gordy in-laws. Now I'm wondering what else I don't know, but thanks for putting me straight on this one.

Exetergirl said:

No prob. Actually Marvin and Harvey Fuqua, the man responsible for bringing him to Motown, actually married two of Berry's sisters. Marvin married Anna of course and Harvey married Gwen. It was strange that Marvin, Harvey and Jermaine all brought their families as in-laws to the Gordys for a brief time, lol. Weird, ain't it?

Timmy84 said:

Fuck a "strong word"

I hate that midget bastard

Harlepolis said:

Join the list. I've been hating him, he always sided with Smokey and Diane because both are his lap dogs.
[Edited 7/8/07 15:30pm]

Timmy84 said:

Well, maybe not Diane since she rebeled against him,,,but Smokey is still his bitch, I'm sorry to say.

Remember his rant against Dreamgirls? He was faaaar from taking the shit with a grain of salt,,,I don't blame him for getting scared though, thats his money.

Harlepolis said:

Yeah I remember that shit. Smokey was like "MOTOWN WAS BUILD ON INTEGRITY AND BERRY GORDY WAS AN INTEGRAL MAN"... bitch-ass should've shut the hell up because he was the LUCKIEST of all the Motown artists. THE LUCKIEST!

Timmy84 said:

I wonder what Norman Whitfield would've said on the other hand?

Fact is, I've yet to hear about his opinion about the musical OR the movie he was the 1st one who went public against Motown I think, before Diane, Marvin and Gladys. I'm sure he had a thing or 2 about the whole thing.