midnightmover said:

certainly these singers perform? have myspace pages? circulate mp3s? if they can't at the very least make those efforts, maybe they're not ready for any kind of visibility. sorry - until i hear names, there's no way i can know these poor, put-upon, downtrodden would-be divas exist.

Grrrr! Why on "MyOrg" is this damn thread still listed as having posts that I haven't seen since I've last been here when that is "CLEARLY" not the case? It is preposterous, I tell you. What a conundrum! Somebidy fix the broken "ORG"! Get the hook!

Anxiety said:

That's funny. Anxiety, I hadn't seen your post until that rant I made, and now, come to find out, it's been here all along, since yesterday near the evening. Something honey don't compute!

sextonseven said:

Hot 97 in New York has been playing "Rehab" a lot....Whether or not it made the R&B charts is meaningless...Amongst the hip urban music crowd, Winehouse has some strong buzz...

CalhounSq said:

that should be the name of her next album
[Edited 7/1/07 7:29am]

Anxiety said:

In my travels I've come across dozens of mind blowing black (and a few white) singers who never got anywhere near success. However, I'm way too far out of the loop these days to know who's doing what. I can only presume that if there were all those incredible performers going nowhere then (ten to fifteen years ago), and I still don't see any of them or their ilk in the mainstream now then the same preferences (I'll call it preferences, not prejudices) are still at work.
Do you seriously believe there are no young black female singers better than Amy or Joss? You think it's all based on merit? It should be obvious to anyone paying any attention that who gets the opportunities and who doesn't is based on marketability, not talent, and white chicks singing like black chicks are always gonna be deemed more marketable.
[Edited 7/1/07 8:45am]

midnightmover said:

you know what, i can think of at least a couple of female singer-songwriters who are way way WAY more talented and accomplished then amy winehouse who haven't gotten the success they're due, and to be quite honest with you, i have NO IDEA why they haven't gotten the recognition they deserve, other than perhaps they have the principles to maintain their careers by their own standards, and they've chosen to maintain independence instead of having their creativity diluted by a major label. right off the top of my head, i can cite princess superstar and kimya dawson as two amazing female performers (one white, the other...well, i'm not sure WHAT race she is, ha), and while they've never come close to amy's current success, both have enough of a fanbase to keep them able to continue touring and making music on their own terms. and this is why i have a problem with the argument in this discussion - i think with a bit of ingenuity and tenacity, ANYone with the talent and ambition can build at LEAST a steady following, if they want it badly enough and are willing to work for it. if it's a matter of wanting the bling and the big bucks, well, i don't think anyone is entitled to that, nor do i necessarily think that's a measure of true success because it can be taken away as soon as the fickle tastes of the public (or the industry) change.

Anxiety said:

I know where you're coming from. One problem that the performers I encountered often had was that they didn't think outside the box. They didn't have the "ingenuity and tenacity" as you put it. However, do you think that shambolic drunk chick had it either? Do you think the 15 year old Joss Stone had it when she got her record deal? They didn't need to have it because the novelty value of their "white face, black voice" meant people were falling over themselves to get with them. That's the difference.
[Edited 7/1/07 9:53am]

midnightmover said:

yeah, but let's see where amy and joss will be in five years. look at where britney is at now, for crying out loud.

i think the whole "novelty value" foot in the door is a hollow victory, because it's based on marketing and flavor-of-the-month corporate music industry mentality. i think the hard-working, principled artist who exists under the mainstream radar and builds up a steady audience has more lasting power than a "boozed-out" fluke who gets fifteen minutes of fame.

how many albums did it take before prince was a superstar? and how many of those pre-fame albums are now considered classics? we live in a climate right now where we think the molding of success should be instantaneous, but the really big icons we look to came up in a time when it took YEARS to mold that kind of success. so what these downtrodden singers need to be doing is building up a catalog of recordings - even if they're indie releases or demos sold out of the trunk of someone's car - and they need to GIG, GIG, GIG so they can at LEAST be putting their talent out there - so if the time comes to be considered, they can come to the table with "THIS is what i've already done on my own, and THIS is the following i've developed on my own, and if you don't want to sign me, i'm still going to be steadily developing and growing my audience. you can either co-opt what i've built or i can keep doing it on my own".

to just throw up one's arms and say "i'm not a white chick who sings black so i'm doome to failure", well, that's just letting the double-standard collect even more weight, as far as i'm concerned. why not be part of the solution instead of a victim of the problem? a major label can victimize you because of race, but why victimize yourself because of your race? money doesn't know from skin color, and actual MUSIC FANS don't care about skin color either. if you have something unique, something that can wow people, that makes money and wins fans. go kick the world's ass instead of sitting on YOUR ass. ya know? that's my frustration.

FarrahMoan said:

i know! that was messed up! stupid org glitches!

Anxiety said:

First of, I don't try to make you feel bad about yourselves. Second thing, there are TONS of indie BLACK soul/jazz singers everywhere in the country.

And those black artists would destroy your Amy "overrated" Winhouse easily on stage. I only can talk about those that I know or I've seen on stage. But there are so many that throwing few names here and there would be ridiculous. The jazz/soul independent scene is just way too big. Just because you don't see mainstream black artists doing soul/jazz music doesn't mean there's no black soul/jazz singers at all. It's up to you to find by yourself. There are a lot of websites everywhere.

Again, If she was a dar skinned girl, she would be just another black girl doing old school stuff.
[Edited 7/1/07 21:52pm]

murph said:

NY radio is different from the rest of the country. The fact is that nationally, "Rehab" has not caught on with R&B stations. Yet.

krayzie said:

It would not be ridiculous to mention a few names here. Give us some that you think deserve attention. Post some links to myspace pages.

krayzie said:

It's "The Stone Cold Truth", man! But, at the same time, tell me this: "Have you ever heard of "Esthero"? If you don't know then you've kind of gotten yourself wrapped up in your own truths. There's a whole lot of people of different races who ain't got the image and are as "White" as "Ireland Driven Show"! You are right about "US" having the racist mind state in the industry, but also, it could be many other things. There are "MANY" discriminatory aspects that are factors of the decision-making process made and went through by "The Man", as you would say. For instance, "Homosexuals" will never get love from the "Rap/Hip-Hop" culture, no matter how good they may/might be. Then again, I forgot about "Lil' Wayne" who I think is a closet "Homosexual", but I am only speculating. At least he is not open. Until he comes out with a "Gay Sex Tape" with his father, I shall remain silent on that subject, though!
[Edited 7/1/07 22:56pm]

Its good music. She and Corrine Bailey Rae imagewise are complete opposites. But musically they have made positive impacts. Considering they are both from the UK i would say the UK has contributed some good artists to music over the past 2 years... Amy isn't the greatest to ever do it but she's original and fresh and I like it.

Anxiety said:

Well said.

krayzie said:

YEAH LIKE COUGH COUGH SHARON JONES COUGH COUGH AMY STOLE BAND COUGH COUGH

POOK said:

Well, the photo on the right is a more healthy/Mariah Carey type shape from 2004....the photo on the left is how she looks like now - which is a hot mess, almost like a drug addict... Her song REHAB is more true than one would believe.

Read this artcle from: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/home/

Singer Amy Winehouse has admitted she is a nasty drunk after confessing to hitting a woman fan at one of her gigs.

The 23-year-old lashed out at the Proud Gallery in London.

She said: "This girl came up to me and said I was brilliant. Two seconds later, she turned to my boyfriend, pointed at me and said, 'She f***** up'.

"So I punched her right in the face - which she wasn't expecting, because girls don't do that."

Amy then added that she kneed her boyfriend between the legs and punched him in the face when he tried to calm her down.

"When I've been on the booze recently, it's turned me into a really nasty drunk," she said.

But she also says that all the boozing has helped her shed the pounds.

"I drink a lot and sometimes forget to eat," she said.

CalhounSq said:

True dat!

POOK said:

smart monkey!
[Edited 7/4/07 20:32pm]

krayzie said:

when you consider that people like R. Kelly, Usher, Akon, Chris Brown, Ciara and Rhianna are the black leaders in the field, can you blame people for giving it up to the white cats for putting out quality work in the genre? that has more actual soul in it than any of the popular black perfmers' work does?

FarrahMoan said:

let's not forget that ever since then, Janet has put out shit music and videos.

Anxiety said:

Since the start of the decade there have been many talented sistas with soulful voices and interesting styles who haven't received much attention or fanfare, certainly nothing on the Winehouse level. Offhand I think of people like Julie Dexter, Res, Ledisi, Leela James, Amel Larrieux, Yahzarah, Goapele, Lina, Conya Doss, Grenique, Joi, N'Dambi...

Oh, and how could I forget Adriana Evans.
[Edited 7/5/07 5:50am]

midnightmover said:

I think that you are spot on with your assessment. Sam Phillips of Sun Records who helped launch Elvis's career is famous for this quote, "If I could find a white man who had the Negro sound and the Negro feel, I could make a million dollars."

I don't think this sentiment has disappeared, rather it has become a model for the music business.

Raze said:

Which field are these people leading? I would not categorize any of the people you named as "soul singers." They make pop music. When I listen to modern soul music I listen to people like Rahsaan Patterson, Leela James, Van Hunt, Anthony Hamilton, Angie Stone, Jill Scott and Donnie, not Chris Brown or Ciara. Hell, even Tweet's last album was more soulful than a lot of this crap out here now.

So I can blame people (record companies and radio especially) for ignoring actual soul acts with talent in favor of the mass-marketed garbage that clogs and pollutes the airwaves. Amy Winehouse is cool, but if we are talking about white acts, I would take Esthero over her any day. However, when comparing real black soul acts to whatever white cats people are foaming at the mouth over right now, I don't see how the white acts are putting out "quality" work that has more "actual soul" in it than those performers. Just because a performer is black does not automatically make them a "soul act." So, I think your comparison is a bit off there.

bellanoche said:

most of the people you mentioned are hardly the leaders in in the "rnb/soul" genre that the post i was responding to mentioned.

[quuote]So I can blame people (record companies and radio especially) for ignoring actual soul acts with talent in favor of the mass-marketed garbage that clogs and pollutes the airwaves. Amy Winehouse is cool, but if we are talking about white acts, I would take Esthero over her any day. However, when comparing real black soul acts to whatever white cats people are foaming at the mouth over right now, I don't see how the white acts are putting out "quality" work that has more "actual soul" in it than those performers. Just because a performer is black does not automatically make them a "soul act." So, I think your comparison is a bit off there.[/quote]


The truth is, who gets promoted and who gets popular is a lottery. And I wasn't talking about soul only. I was responding to the term "rnb/soul"... which all of them are a part of.

Raze said:

I realize that the music that she has been putting out, lately, has been garbage. But, I say, blame that on "Jermaine Dupri" and her choice of him as a companion (*CRINGES*). Besides, the reason why she was banned wasn't because of the quality of her music. Instead she was banned for "The Superbowl Incident in 2004", of which both her "AND" "Justin Timberlake" had participated in. That means that it is only right and fair that "MTV" either ban "Justin Timberlake", too, or allow back "Janet Jackson" the admission/permission of using their network for airtime. Otherwise, all merits for the decision to ban "Janet Jackson", "ONLY", point to "RACISM"!!!!
[Edited 7/4/07 23:15pm]

FarrahMoan said:

well, the problem was she put out an album RIGHT AFTER that incident, and JT didn't. the next time around for him (2006), things had cooled off and he put out an extremely popular album. she on the other hand, at the same time, put out an incredibly bad one.

and this "MTV ban" is baloney. i saw So Excited on MTV, VH1 and BET.