Even though I likes me some Lionel, and hey Najee, you can't say Michael is a bigger sell out than Lionel. Michael still makes "Black music" played on Black Radio (Butterflies, Remember The Time...) Michael always has music geared towards Black radio....and Michael still has many new young Black fans.

What's Lionel's last big song on Black radio? What's his last funky track? Admit it player, your biased because of the way MJ looks and acts. The white audience came to him, and MJ's goal was to be a populist, a song for everyone, a song for pop radio, Black radio. He's been creatively dead (not 20 years, Dangerous was that ish) of late because he's been trying to use the same formula. Hip-hop has also changed the landscape of what popular acts like Prince and MJ did, both had to acknowledge it's impact, and what was the result, Tony M and Shaq.

CalhounSq said:

Lenny is just a ho.

missfee said:

actually, that's his best album

TonyVanDam said:

How can we ever know if the artist has turned his back on any of these things?

Is any artist who did a "disco" album a sellout because he or she was adapting to the sound of the time?

CinisterCee said:

Personally, I'd have less respect for the artist that didn't do the disco album out of fear of being called a sellout.

lilgish said:

As much as Lionel Richie equally watered down his sound in the 1980s -- and I actually have a bigger dislike for Richie musically than Michael Jackson -- at least Richie didn't try to make himself look like some freaky-looking white girl.

The black people I know say the same thing I do -- they detest MJ because he thought something was faulty in his appearance that he systematically destroyed his racial identity and then started sleeping in the same bed with boys and claiming white children as his biological offspring. I'm skeptical of the "new black fans" comment because I don't any black people of any age who buys MJ's music nowadays -- for the same reasons I posted.

As for Richie, people forget that he took a decade off from the music scene (1986 through 1996). He obviously is not nearly as popular as he was in his heyday, but he has had post-layoff songs played on soul music formats (The Commodores-sounding "Don't Wanna Lose You" and "I Call It Love," which was a very recent song).
[Edited 4/8/07 19:08pm]

lilgish said:

I completely agree. I think that person was just using this thread as another oppurtunity to bash MJ. And I thought the threadstarter was referring to which artists have sold out when it comes to their music? What in the world does their personal life or appearence have to do with anything? It's beyond ridiculous.Also, I do not understand people who say MJ has been artistically dead for 20 years. They just don't know what they're talking about. The History Album had some of the most personal songs MJ has ever written and "Blood On The DanceFloor" is the least commercial album Michael has ever made.

But I don't see how people can really complain about MJ trying to sell records though because he is a POP artist. The objective is to sell records and that's the case with all Pop Stars. And after "Thriller" turned out to be such an enormous success Michael felt a lot of pressure to keep on producing hits and can you blame him? That's a lot of pressure to deal with. None of us can relate to that or know what that was like. I'd like to see how some of these people who constantly complain about Michael would have dealt with or reacted to that type of success & pressure.

Janfriend said:

Even today, the hipple following & the die-hard fans are known as Deadheads. But still, we can still use The Grateful Dead as a great example of being successful and promoting music as an artform without sell-out any of your principles.

lilgish said:

READ: Selling-Out is when you get a haircut to distance yourself from the heavy metal community and its factors.
[Edited 4/8/07 19:14pm]

Cinnamon234 said:

When you have a racial group who cannot identify with an artist for the very obvious reason (s)he changed his appearance to where (s)he is nearly unrecognizable -- and changing it to resemble another race -- that is a barrier a lot of black people cannot overlook (as stated by numerous people on this site alone).

I'm sure white people would be in a similar state of disgust if Brad Pitt or George Clooney disavowed themselves of their racial identity by going through extreme lengths to change their appearances not to look like they do now.

Cinnamon234 said:

I would imagine a lot of it has to do with Michael Jackson's music sounding essentially the same since the "Bad" album -- plastic, artificial-sounding and generally uninspired and sounding oh-so-familiar.
[Edited 4/8/07 19:18pm]

coolcat said:

By noticing that they went from this:


To this:

TonyVanDam said:

I agree -- THAT is selling out.

TonyVanDam said:

I think that's just called "growing up" or "maturing". People change, ykno?

I think a sell-out is more obvious when the project is a one-off, and then they return to their roots. I just read DMC's autobiography, and it sounds like Run-D.M.C.'s Back From Hell (1990) was an attempt at a hardcore gangsta rap album.

CinisterCee said:

Yes, according to classic rock DJs that provoked the disco sucks movement. Those rock purists were very piss-off with



trying to sound like

missfee said:

But is that selling out ?

Hammer was marked as a sell-out from the start of his career.
Rappers were hate'n on Hammer from the start.
Remember Hammer started his own label, and sold tapes out of his trunk before hooking up with a major label.

Hammer started out smart.. signing a deal that was in his favor(if that makes since in the music biiiiizness). His problem was what to do with the loot once he recieved it.
Hammer brought entertainment to the rap game and was making mad loot.
Rappers couldn't understand how this cat was making mad loot getting endorsement deals and they were not.

Hammer's prime example was not a thug image , but the pimping of the pleasure principle.
Pimp'd his talent to appease himself, friends and family.
Big entourage of family, friends.. soon as the loot is gone (frivolous spending), the pain leaves.

Actually more rappers are doing what Hammer did years ago, some may have better control of their loot.

Hammer tried to change his image and was still label a sell-out.

"not selling out" = "being a slave to your image"

Najee said:

.....and it's shameful!!! I'll take the old controversial Ice Cube over the family film producing Ice Cube anyday. Honest!!!

CinisterCee said:

Down With the King was that shit though, just check my 93 list http://www.prince.org/msg/8/219196

TonyVanDam said:

Is that selling-out because it pisses off his original fans?

Najee said:

Listen I understand all that. My mother for example stopped being a fan of Michael's after "Bad" came out because she felt like he was doing everything to distance himself from his race. I know plenty of other people who feel the way my mother does but still that does NOT MEAN THAT EVERY BLACK PERSON FEELS THAT WAY about Michael just because you and a few others do. You cannot speak for everybody. We are not all disgusted with Michael. No matter what, Black people have supported Michael because he is an icon in the community regardless. During the trial, I didn't see many white celebrities sticking up for MJ, but I saw a lot of the black folks support him. OF course there are many who dislike him and they do have some valid reasons for doing so, but it is not what you're making it out to be.

Najee said:

Well like I said I thought there were some very good/personal songs on "History" & "Blood On The Dancefloor" but I do understand where you're coming from as far as him sounding uninspired. It seems as though he's gotten bored with the whole music scene & his heart no longer seems to be in it but hopefully he'll prove me wrong on his new album.

lilgish said:

That's what I am saying. Down With The King was not contrived. It makes it even more obvious that Back From Hell was a 'sell-out' effort.

coolcat said:

But have you figure out why some of those die-hard fans were piss?



Because to the eyes & ears of those fans, Ice Cube has fail to take his own words of wisdom (mostly the second verse) from the song/video True To The Game:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...KzYwGZGNAc

Cinnamon234 said:

I don't recall saying I speak for everyone. However, there have been plenty of people on this site who have said the same thing about Michael Jackson. I'm sorry if you don't quite understand that (maybe it's an age thing, as I grew up with a "black" Michael Jackson).

I believe you're under the impression I cannot stand MJ and I never liked him as an artist -- which is far from the case. I'm ultimately disappointed in how he effectively destroyed himself in some twisted effort to attain a physical appearance he felt was superior to how he looked. It's sad looking at him now vs. earlier days.

Cinnamon234 said:

As a community, Afro-Americans in the United States have a habit of supporting a fellow member even when it's obvious the person in question wants no association with that community save in times of desperation (see O.J. Simpson). That doesn't mean MJ is very popular with that community as a recording artist, as least as much as he used to be.

Cinnamon234 said:

Among other things, I feel that MJ went from being a great singer who was a good dancer to becoming a walking video (namely, obsessed with choreographed moves and being a singer second). Songs from "Bad" forward lyrically and musically sound like they were created for a video. Even when he performs in concert there are periods where he is lip-synching his tunes.

In a way. I'm still amazed that MJ is around in some form on the music scene some nearly 40 years after appearing on "The Ed Sullivan Show." However, I'm also saddened how much of a caricature he's made himself.

coolcat said:

It's selling out when you build a persona of being about one thing and then turn around doing a 180 later in your career. Ice Cube was one of the hardest, most frank rappers in the genre -- his first two albums, "AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted" and "Death Certificate," were equally praised and reviled for their profane lyrics.

I mean, Ice Cube had a song ("Black Korea") that was taken as a racist invocation to burn down all Korean-owned grocery stores and provoked a public condemnation from Billboard magazine.

And now, fast forward to today and Ice Cube is starring in some idiotic comedy that looks like that "Vacation"-style movie Cedric the Entertainer made just a couple of years ago! He truly has turned into O'Shea Jackson, IMO.

TonyVanDam said:

It's hard to believe Ice Cube used to be so militant, One almost forgets he was comin' harder than Paris and Chuck D, well not anymore. He had got more mainstream with Friday and the whole West Side Connection.

TonyVanDam said:

Now I see. If I looked up hypocrite in the dictionary, I guess I'd see Ice Cube's face.
[Edited 4/8/07 20:09pm]

Najee said:

Well, that's nothing to be proud of. Maybe he regrets his militancy, and thinks his way of thinking was wrong.

I see both sides as selling out. He was selling an image in the beginning. He's selling an image now. One's no better than the other. One isn't more real than the other.

Did Ice Cube live according to the lyrics he wrote before? Did he give back to his community etc...

coolcat said:

You're not getting the context of the comment. Ice Cube was profanely militant during his early solo career and with NWA and now fast forward he has become the person he used to rap about in "Tru to Da Game."