AvramsDad said:

come on you can do better than that. what is establishment? to me as an activist, establishment is this psuedoChristanity and the big businesses like Oil that run this country. They tend to be antiGay, antiWoman, antiMinority, antianything that isn't like the ones in power. Someone making a killing by being everything they stand against isn't establishment. She wasn't supposed to be what she has become. she wasn't supposed to last more than two years. she has stood up to the Church, Ragan, Both Bushes, and still is still able to piss them off.

I don't think Madonna is punk and I doubt she'd claim she was herself. She was in a punk band before she went dance, but she and the other members have both said they weren't necessarily good; they just had a love for the music. Madonna definitely had a punk attitude for a while, though. She completely exploited the system in the beginning of her career. That hasn't even changed though. She has recently said she finds being anti-establishment boring and feels it's only necessary to be controversial if there's a purpose to what you're doing. She's over being controversial just for the sake of being controversy.

I think you guys are taking that section of the website too seriously. From my understanding it's merely there to give information on Madonna's early days in New York that included a few bands.

I also don't think Madonna takes her guitar playing seriously. She seems to just enjoy playing and she only brings it out for a few songs. I doubt she's trying to re-invent herself as a rock star.

ehuffnsd said:

What happened to American Life? Why isn't she continuing in that vain? Reinvention than COADF, has she strayed away after the backlash? don't you think she should continue to be political in her music? How bout publicly backing her friend Rosie O'Donnell?

ehuffnsd said:

She's a rebel no doubt about it and I love her for it but she is not a Punk Rock Musician...her roots are in dance, art, heck even part of the 'new wave' crowd that followed the punk revolution...but she is not, never was, never will be punk. I have alot of the same views that are anti-establishment but I'm not punk. Attitude is just part of it...there's no doubt she has a great appreciation for punk musicians of the past and still present pioneers (Ramones, Iggy & the Stooges) but she is not punk

lilgish said:

did you see the Sorry Video on the Confessions Tour?

http://www.youtube.com/wa...JyG6V4UIew

VANITYSprisonBYTCH said:

i'm not saying she is punk rock now, but her roots are Motown, Disco and Punk in the vain of Blondie.

ehuffnsd said:

I can see that...elements...ok...I'm so not trying to be argumentive but thoughts of Avril bring out the angry in me:)

VANITYSprisonBYTCH said:

no worries.

ehuffnsd said:

Better than what? Madonna IS an establishment unto herself. To me, as a Black, gay, HIV positive single Dad of a disabled bi-racial child (GASP!), establishment is someone who whores themselves on a steady basis, chases trends, says and does a few provocative things that people en mass consider "controversial" to maintain a spot on Page Six, calls it art and reaps millions for it. She (pre)tends this avant garde artist yet is constantly reminding us that she'll show you her drawls in a second if it meant you'd buy a $400 concert ticket. Am I supposed to feel sorry that she has become what she is? That took work!. I'll give her that,she's still mos def grindin' after all these years. Also, I don't know in what sense you mean "stood up" to chuch, Reagan, and the Bushes, but I find it amusing the way she chooses to make her "statements".

That said, I dig Madonna. I really do. But I got beef when folks try to make these people something they simply aren't.

Madonna isn't punk. I wouldn't even call her anti-establishment considering all the coorporations she has been in bed with. She's just a rich dancer from Detroit with a decent catalog of pop music and an open mind.

AvramsDad said:

She has punk mind frame and I'm not claiming her to be Punk. Like I said above she has her roots in Motown, Disco, and Blodieeaque Punk.

As an HIV postive gay man I applad her to contiuned fight for gay rights and the struggle of HIV

VANITYSprisonBYTCH said:

If you lived in NYC in the late 70s/early 80s you'd know that the disco and dance and punk and even hip-hop scenes of the time were tripping over one another downtown. There was a very significant amount of club cross-pollinzation going on at that juncture that is just how it was. Madonna was where? BAM! Right there, poor as shit, meeting anyone and everyone from all scenes, there with her hand in everything, right in the middle of all of it, trying to make shit happen. Madonna has NEVER pigeonholed herself into a "genre". Not in 1979, not in 2007, not ever. Madonna is not a good singer, she is an OK dancer, so she has done what she has done with admittedly meager show biz talent. This does not embody the ethos of punk rock to you?

i hate Madonna

thorntonmellon said:

thorntonmellon said:

If this is your criteria for being punk rock, then just about anybody on Billboard's top ten RIGHT NOW is living proof of the "ethos" you speak of.

AvramsDad said:

Not really. Most of today's stars aren't self made in the same Madonna was. Fergie, Christina, Britney, and Beyonce were all pretty much bred from childhood and molded into the stars they are today with the help of their parents. Madonna had to rely on her own resources and dedication to get a deal. I think that's the point Thorntonmellon was trying to make.

Joshua23 said:

I don't give a damn how long you've been sucking. If you sucked as a kid, chances are you're gonna keep sucking into adulthood.
Thorntonmellon mentioned "meager talent" in conjunction with a state of being (that I'm SURE would have true punks seething), and I responded directly to that.

AvramsDad said:

I see your point, but I was more responding to his/her entire response to this thread. You can't take one sentence from a reply and use it as an opinion without missing Thorntonmellon's overall point. Thorntonmellon wasn't just talking about Madonna's marginal talent, but how she used it to get where she is. That's what was being compared to the punk culture. Today's stars can't relate to the way Madonna rose to fame at all.

Move along people, nothing to see here.