Najee said:

Quick question, vainandy: What is your opinion of Maze feat. Frankie Beverly? Are they not in the same vein as acts like Luther Vandross, Freddie Jackson, Anita Baker, et al?

Acts like Lionel Richie, Whitney Houston, post-"Off the Wall" Michael Jackson and (yes!) post-"1999" Prince were the ones who watered down soul music. These were those incredibly pop acts who purposely made crossover, unhip music. Hell, post-"Hotter Than July" Stevie Wonder was more in that mindset than Freddie Jackson ever was

Hell no. Maze kinda had a sound like no one else at the time. It was a little mellower but also just a tad bit funky.

And you're missing my point. Yeah, crossover folks existed in the early 1980s but funk still dominated R&B radio. Funk was still around in the late 1980s but it was getting scarcer and scarcer because of all the acts that were coming out either making crossover or adult contemporary type R&B because they could get massive sales that way.

vainandy said:

You have got to be kidding here. Maze feat. Frankie Beverly are an adult contemporary R&B act if there ever was one. It's getting now where you're choosing some acts you like in the same mode and trashing others in the same mode.

vainandy said:

Actually, my point is that R&B music always had adult contemopary acts of its genre (see Luther Vandross, Maze feat. Frankie Beverly, Ashford & Simpson, Stephanie Mills). However, you're blasting several artists who are in the same mode (Freddie Jackson, Regina Belle, Anita Baker) -- and worse, you're lumping them incorrectly in with the acts you correctly call the "shitty pop acts" like Whitney Houston and Billy Ocean -- even though they had largely no such following.
[Edited 3/26/07 19:27pm]

"As for comparing Ashford and Simpson to Freddie Jackson, Freddie could NEVER do a hard ass jam like "Nobody Knows" and if "Jam Tonight" is his strongest uptempo jam, that's a very weak example."

"Freddie Jackson and Anita Baker may have not been successful with pop audiences but they were successful with older R&B audiences. They were not only trying to sell to the young R&B crowd but their mothers as well."

Najee said:

"With Maze, I hear a little mellower version of funk, with maybe a slight blues feel to it."

"Whether you want to consider acts like Ashford and Simpson, Maze, Luther Vandross, or Stephanie Mills as adult contemporary, even those acts released and were capable of hard jams such as:

Ashford and Simpson - Nobody Knows
Luther Vandross - She's A Super Lady
Maze - Running Away
Stephanie Mills - Pilot Error

Folks like Shitney, Anita, Freddie, etc., had NO hard jams whatsoever."

I applaud this post....Anyone that lumps Anita Baker with late '80s/early '90s pop obsessed Whitney Houston (However, Whitney was worth the hype on her debut album and far from pop...) is not listening to same songs I'm listening to...Vain is the homie; one of the most entertaining folks on here...but sometimes he can go a little overboard with the blanket criticisms...lol

With Maze, I hear a little mellower version of funk, with maybe a slight blues feel to it. Whether you want to consider acts like Ashford and Simpson, Maze, Luther Vandross, or Stephanie Mills as adult contemporary, even those acts released and were capable of hard jams such as:

Ashford and Simpson - Nobody Knows
Luther Vandross - She's A Super Lady
Maze - Running Away
Stephanie Mills - Pilot Error

Folks like Shitney, Anita, Freddie, etc., had NO hard jams whatsoever and were very successful at it. In the early 80s, even the weakest of the artists had to put out at least one jam because funk was the dominating music at the time.

Yes, R&B has always had adult contemporary acts but they didn't dominate R&B radio until the late 1980s. Most of them were only moderately successful until Shitney came along and was a huge success. Acts follow what the biggest success is, when it became adult contemporary, more and more of them followed.
.
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[Edited 3/26/07 19:49pm]

Basically, you're crucifying the likes of Anita Baker because they/she wasn't a funk artist/or making hard charging, uptempo jams...(?) I remember when Anita was doing her thing with the Rapture album...That release was getting more burn than just older music fans...Younger folks (read teenagers) were digging Anita just as much as they were digging Luther...Hell, EPMD, a hip hop group, even named checked her on their debut album...It was only on her later albums that she became associated as an Adult Contempoary R&B star...Indeed, there seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on in this post...

murph said:

I was in my late teens, early 20s when Anita Baker's "Rapture" came out and the college-age people who were buying Luther Vandross' music also bought this album. They also bought Freddie Jackson's music and Maze's music.

I'm still not seeing how vainandy doesn't see these acts as all being cut from the same cloth.

Najee said:

I don't disagree with any of your points. They are all valid, but I just don't think the political and social climate today matches the urgency of Civil Rights era into the late 70s. That sense of desperation, urgency and detrmination fed into the black community and developed new trends in music. Hip-hop has lost its political impetus and traded in for crass materialism. Even if it's not overtly political r&b needs the fire in the streets to fuel it's artists. So you go to a PFunk or EWF concert and sit back playing "Remember When..."

"'Funk is dead'
That's what they said."

I think it's because Freddie was seen as a light weight Luther wannabe...That's the only rationale I can come up with...As for lumping of Anita, that I don't get...But of course, Vain also thinks a great '80s song like "Saturday Love" (Cherelle & Alexander O'Neal) is Adult Contempoary crap...So that may explain it all...lol

murph said:

I don't know how Freddie Jackson could be seen as a "lightweight Luther Vandross wannabe" when he was racking up more hits than Vandross during that period (1985-1991) and were selling the same amount of albums. But that's not what vainandy is doing -- he's saying you cannot pair Jackson and Vandross together as artists.

Hi, Bellanoche.

Not to be a party pooper, but this issue was discussed very recently:

http://www.prince.org/msg/8/219022
[Edited 3/25/07 21:51pm]

PFunkjazz said:

The issue isn't recycling older artists -- something the soul music market has never done like its other genres in arms -- but the alarming lack of creativity and spontaniety in the genre.

You have three major influences here:

1.) the growing lack of music education programs in the school systems, thus no emphasis on learning how to play instruments. Most acts simply push a button on what vainandy calls some tin-sounding, faint beat with hardly any supporting instruments.

2.) music companies finding it cheaper to create, market and invest in throwaway artists, mostly of the vocal variety. Most of these acts don't even perform live (much less tour) and when they do perform it's painfully obvious these acts haven't spent a lot of time on their craft.

3.) shit-hop (an inferior, meeker version of hip-hop music) to the point where the vocalists are just window dressing. On top of that, the music for the past dozen years is incredibly downbeat -- it's rare you hear an uptempo song from these artists.
[Edited 3/26/07 7:53am]

vainandy said:

You have got to be kidding here. Maze feat. Frankie Beverly are an adult contemporary R&B act if there ever was one. It's getting now where you're choosing some acts you like in the same mode and trashing others in the same mode.

vainandy said:

Actually, my point is that R&B music always had adult contemopary acts of its genre (see Luther Vandross, Maze feat. Frankie Beverly, Ashford & Simpson, Stephanie Mills). However, you're blasting several artists who are in the same mode (Freddie Jackson, Regina Belle, Anita Baker) -- and worse, you're lumping them incorrectly in with the acts you correctly call the "shitty pop acts" like Whitney Houston and Billy Ocean -- even though they had largely no such following.
[Edited 3/26/07 19:27pm]

Watching these classic Soul Train's these past three months I can see where Vainandy is coming from. The difference musically between a 1982 episode and a 1986 episode is the funk was heavy in '82 while the music was watered down by '86, hence why Hip Hop eventually took over.

Vainandy is actually correct about maze and frankie. They were known for their mellow jams but back in the day maze could funk too. They just didn't funk as hard as acts like cameo, bar-kays, gap band, or confunkshun. The crowd would always call on maze to do some of their funkier uptempo songs like i got you, running away, too many games, southern girl, and changing times which they would often open some of their shows with. Also don't forget laid back girl.

He was lightweight because he didn't have the same vocal genius as Luther, plain and simple...Freddie had a strong voice, but vandross's place as one of music's greatest vocal talents can be dirrectly credited to his '80s work...I mean dude was covering folks songs and the public thought they were his...That's why Freddie, superior album sales and all, is not even in the same class...

When I was a teenager my brother told me:
"You gotta play Luther Vandross
If you wanna get her pants off" - Good advice, even if it don't quite rhyme.

Najee said:

Like I said, the fact you have to use some Luther Vandross song BEFORE his solo career shows you're reaching badly.