Interesting thread.

Miles said:

Paul McCartney making good records after 1980? I got my doubts.

I always think of him as an essence of artistic death.

halosinner said:

Yes, this is a great album and at the level of his best.

1980 is for Stevie what 1995 was to Prince.

From there on in, they delivered only individual moments of glory.....

SquirrelMeat said:

So TRC is a kind of Jungle Fever....imo both brilliant albums

dammme said:

Yeah, Jungle Fever was a great album, but there were two tracks that bogged the album down alittle and that was the annoying title track and soggy ballad, Chemical Love. Conversation Peace was just medicore because it had a dry production and some weak instrumentation.

You're right about "Skeletons" being the funkiest thing he had done since "Hotter Than July" but it's just not as strong. Like so many artists of the late 1980s, it has a pleasing R&B sound but it also sounds like it was recorded with the intention of pleasing the pop world also, which means watering down the funk a little which makes it weaker sounding.

Agreed. I think the synth/electronic music killed Stevie artistically. Although Hotter was very heavy with the synth, his albums since then (IMHO) are pretty poor. Even albums like converastion peace which I consider to be examples of pretty good songwriting, are let down by generic and mainstream production.

The same thing happened to my other idol..Elton. He's another that really suffered during the 80s. The difference being that his output was still considerable - so most people remember his 80s hits,(Blue eyes, I guess thats why, Kiss the bride..etc) rather than the mass of very average and sometimes shitty albums.

paligap said:

This is a great thread. I often wonder why my favorite artists dry up creatively.

I love Stevie 69 to 79, don't like too much before and much after. Someone mentioned his vocal register being less than it was. I agree I just watched a (from the look of it ) early 90's top of the pops on VH1 classic. Hated it. I didn't like the players, his singing, or the sound.

I have also cringed lately when I hear him sing, as in a recent awards show where he calls out for a C# note, and he is just not pitch perfect like he used to be.

There is a distinct diff though between what I believe Stevie's problem is versus Prince. Prince is still the best live act on the planet and I have never heard him miss a note or lose vocal range, he does however, write some bad songs and makes poor business decisions.

Stevie, seems to have lost some skills on the keyboard and vocally which may lead to more conventional tunes being written.

Which is why I am more concerned with vintage unreleased albums, songs, and video of both artists in their prime.

I will say this IMHO, no one can touch the creativity,talent, and musicianship on the trilogy of FFF,Inner, and SITKOL. It is just mindblowing. And for that he can record whatever he wants for the rest of his life and we should still support it.

Some great responses and thoughts here. Thanks everybody!!

I would add that I think that the contribution of Malcolm Cecil and Robert Margouleff to Stevie's great early '70s records, is much underrated. During the epic recording sessions at Electric Lady Studios in the early '70s, when it appears that very many of Stevie's then-current and later great material was originally written and recorded, it appears that these two acted as co-producers of his records, as well as setting up all the synths and keyboards for him to record with.

He dispensed with Cecil and Margouleff and brought in his new Yamaha 'dream machine' synth just before SITKOL - a great album but, as another poster said above, I think marks the first signs of the long, slow decline. Fewer new ideas, recycling earlier lyrical and song ideas, some songs outstaying their welcome and a slight blandness in the overall sound. Yes, there are many great tracks on there as well, but imo the 'decline' has its roots in Stevie parting company with Cecil and Margouleff.

According to them in documentaries I've seen, these guys used to make him do takes over and over and over again, and would kick his a** to get the best possible stuff. As Stevie seems to have produced everything himself alone since SITKOL, I think he may have fallen victim to 'Don't argue with the legend who has total control' syndrome. Like with Prince, there's no-one around who has the weight or permission to say, 'Actually Stevie, that song is rubbish', or, as with 'A Time to Love', imo 'Most of these songs sound the same, Stevie, and are nice but it's all too 'safe'.'

So, I think Stevie's 'decline' post HTJ has various complex reasons, including lack of self-confidence, an uncertainty in direction, pointlessly seeking 'hits', a lack of understanding of modern synths and how best to record his own work since HTJ (ie. less electronic, more 'organic' sounding, with real drums), less 'hunger', energy and interest due to having less to prove and a more important family life, apparently running out of new lyric ideas and approaches, and the self-defeating problem of having total control and people around who value their salaries more than the man's best interests artistically.

But, he's 'only' 56. Maybe, like the older Duke Ellington and, arguably Paul McCartney on his 'Chaos and Creation' album from '05, Stevie will pull his socks up and finally record and release that jazz album he keeps talking about, and even that gospel album he sometimes mentions.

On a related note, I think perhaps the best thing I've heard him do in 'recent' years is singing and playing harmonica on a version of WC Handy's 'St Louis Blues', from his old friend Herbie Hancock's 1998 album 'Gershwin's World'. He also plays solo harmonica on 'Summertime' on there, with Joni Mitchell singing, backed up by Herbie and Wayne Shorter.

And I'm horrified to learn that, as Spyzfan1 says, Stevie released a version of the Police's 'Every Breath You Take' back in the '80s, to 'cash in' on their hit, it seems. Surely his true nadir.

I think Prince is slipping into 'characters' territory with his cheap keyboard and drum programming. God, I remember thinking how Prince was a refreshing change from Wonder's 80s stuff, thinking he must know that over produced/programmed stuff couldn't fool any soul-based fan but look what prince churned out during the plastic years 96 - 04 (nps, sex me - sex me not, golden parachute, hypno paradise and more..).

I dont really know the answer to the question, but everything since 1980 has the programmed feel to it, less organic, less fun.

I don't care if the drums speed up in the last chorus or the bass guitar misses a beat in the last verse. He has the prefect template in 'I Wish' to make fresh recordings.

paligap said:

This, to me, is what makes his music weaker than it used to be. I think some of his new songs are just as good as the old ones, but they sound a bit plastic.

His ballads seem to fare better, like Passionate Raindrops.

Another thing is he seems to be trying too hard on certain tracks like Positivity, in some kind of effort to stay current, rather than just be Stevie.

Stevie's first f*** up.....maybe:

TonyVanDam said:

Tough to say, because as shitty as it sounds now, I Just Called... was one of his biggest hits.

NDRU said:

I used to like that song during the 80's. But now I can look back on those lyrics and admit that Stevie was too close to Air Supply territory on that track.

Miles said:

Good points! You're right, Cecil and Margouleff certainly don't get the accolades they should--they were great as collaborators, both at helping to shape the overall sound with their T.O.N.T.O. bank of synthesizers, and as sounding boards for many different ideas.

Interesting that you mention Ellington -- although 'Secret Life of Plants' was torn apart in the Pop press, several jazz magazines, and publications like Musician and Stereo Review hailed the album, and Musician magazine predicted that from there he could probably go on to be like Ellington, compose suites and Classical/Jazz compositions. If he had only paid more attention to reviews like those instead of the Pop mags, who knows? Maybe he would have been there by now. If nothing else, maybe he would have kept that desire to push and grow...

and You're right, he does seem to rise to the occasion when guesting on other people's albums--it just doesn't seem to carry over to his own. Maybe he does need strong collaborators....



...

TonyVanDam said:

Y'know, as bad as "I Just Called" and "Don't Drive Drunk", were, there are some tunes that I do like on the soundtrack -- "It's You", "Weakness" "Moments Aren't Moments", and his playing on "It's More Than You"...



...

paligap said:

...they were perhaps my most favorite songs at the time (I was 4).

CinisterCee said:

Oh! my bad,


...

paligap said:

I totally agree. This could have been a possible direction Stevie could have taken. Also, he had already shown an interest in jazz-rock fusion on tracks like 'Contusion' from SITKOL and his work with Jeff Beck, and even imo a possible interest in the dreaded then in vogue 'progressive rock' in his keyboard 'noodlings' at times. He also had a sound knowledge and instinct of how to integrate classical music ideas into his pop songs (eg. the great 'Pastime Paradise' and also 'Village Ghetto Land').

Had he chosen to develop his jazz, classical and generally more experimental ideas, maybe Stevie could have grown into a whole new phase or two ...

Maybe 'Secret Life of Plants' was him reaching for that kind of thing, but getting his hand bitten by the wrong critics. I'm beginning to think that if SITKOL was the subtle beginning of the 'rot', then his reaction to the reception 'Secret Life' received was the real turning point - 'I'd better play safe from now on. I need to make money for my family and Motown, not bomb out on hit-and-miss-experiments.' Maybe, deep down, he just lacks the self-confidence/ arrogance of someone like Duke Ellington (and his great collaborator Billy Strayhorn), who seemed to do whatever he pleased in his post 1956 career, from a trio album with Charles Mingus/ Max Roach ('Money Jungle'), to 'World Music'-influenced Ellington-style big band music like the wonderful 'Far-East Suite'.

A shame, as after 1977, you'd think Stevie wouldn't really need anymore big cheques and gold discs ...

Stevie, like Bob Marley, simply cannot be viewed apart from the role he played in the third world national liberation movements. Stevie was, perhaps (or of course I suppose), less directly connected, personally, than Bob to the parties/players in these movements (Bob in Jamaica and Africa, Stevie in America), but nonetheless both Stevie and Bob's music was a concrete *expression* of the goals and aspirations and hopes and doubts of these movements. Their music, *of course*, was many other things, but it *was* primarily this. The Black Belt of the Southern United States - where the majority of African-Americans lived before the northern migrations of the 20th century was every bit as much a third-world colony of the USA proper (the North, Wall Street) as Indochina was of France, or as was the Congo of Belgium, etc etc.

The Post WW2 national liberation movements had a good 25-year run from say the early 50s (China in '49, Iran, the Congo, Guatemala, Cuba - Moncada was in 1953 through the mid-70s with the ending of the Vietnam War.) Stevie's music (in the 1970s) was BASED (I should say that the *content* was based - the form, of course, was the blues) on this HUMONGOUS worldwide motion of large numbers of oppressed nations shaking off the hand of their colonial masters to enter the world stage under the leadership of their own people. For this to happen the masses of these nations had to be awakened and politicized. Billions of people (mostly of color) - including millions in America - were in militant anti-colonial motion during this period of time. What gave the civil rights movement in America so much juice was its participants viewed themselves not as a minority in America but as part of an awakening militant MAJORITY in the world. The *energy* of Stevie's work in the 1970s WAS this motion of these oppressed billions. This wave of anti-colonial worldwide struggle had crested by the late 70s. When this historical era ended, so did Stevie's creativity. Stevie was a man of his *time* you see. The political and economic content of his era *cried out* for cultural expression, and it found it in Stevie, and Bob, and others.

It's also interesting to note that his creativity receded just as hip-hop was getting under way - hip-hop which was the creative expression of the intense de-industrialization of America which struck the African-American people the hardest and opened the door for the crack explosion. Once the process of deindustrialization had played itself out (say the last great wave being the massive defense job cuts in the millions in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Soviet Union from 1991-1995), hip-hop was finished creatively.

Culture has its roots in economic life. Politics is an expression of economics. When the economic/political situation in the world changes drastically, the culture *must* change to express the *new* situation, it cannot continue to express the *old*.

Great thread btw. Made me think!

dammme said:

In a way, yes.

Except, where you chose "TRC" and "Jungle Fever", I choose "The Truth" and "A Time 2 Love".

Thats the beauty of opinion!

paligap said:

I have to agree with that as well. Some of the material is very strong, but the production style doesn't have that timeless quality to it. It sounds dated and cheesy, IMHO.
[Edited 3/9/07 18:30pm]

Miles said:

Cecil And Margouleff definitely were important in Stevie's prime. I think they're somewhat analogous to the role that Wendy & Lisa and the rest of the Revolution played in prince's music. Every person is at their best when they have someone to bounce their ideas off of, or someone whose input they're willing to accept. Paul McCartney and John Lennon weren't as good solo as they were together, even though only 35 Beatles songs were direct "collaborations". As Michael Bland said, Prince's band members post-Revolution have been employees instead of peers and thus he's never had true creative partners since. And Of course, Stevie was at his best when he had people like Cecil and Margouleff who were willing to push him to be his best, even if it meant offending or challenging him.

Now,to be fair,Stevie still recorded a bunch of superb songs in the 80s...

"That Girl" (1982)
"Do I Do" (1982)
"Ribbon In The Sky" (1982)
"I Love You Too Much" (1985)
"Love Light In Flight" (1984)
"Overjoyed" (1985)
"Land Of La La" (1985)
"Skeletons" (1987) (the "Superstition" of the 80s)
"You Will Know" (1987)

Stevie in the 80s was like Prince in the 90s.Their best days were clearly behind them but they still managed to come up with a great song every now and then.

SoulAlive said:

You forgot "Front Line"!

SoulAlive said:

I really didn't understand what was supposed to be so good about "A Time To Love" to make some say it was "his return to form". All his drab albums had a few highlights on them, but weren't enough consistent by any standards when considered on the whole.

CinisterCee said:

I still think Motown made a mistake by not releasing this song as a single.