AlexdeParis said:

Or also:

Bobby Caldwell
Boz Scaggs
Jon B.
Robin Thicke

To name a few...

Phil Collins

thedribbler said:

:spew: :vomit:

CinisterCee said:

just kiddin'

CosmicTalk said:

True. I was just thinking of George because he's had the most success on the R&B charts (that I can think of off the top of my head).

AlexdeParis said:

Oh ok. Now that would be interesting to find out - What white singer has had the most success on the R&B charts? Teena would win hands down on the female side of course, but what male would win? Can anyone find that info? Thanks in advance.

thedribbler said:

phew!

CosmicTalk said:

Well, I know George had three top-10 hits ("Careless Whisper," "Father Figure," "Monkey") and one #1 song ("One More Try") and #1 album (Faith). "Hard Day" reached #21 on airplay alone and "Jesus to a Child" also just missed the top 20.

thedribbler said:

The issue is you're qualifying white artists based on their interpretation of the soul music stylings, and it makes sense that if you're using that genre as the defining threshold then it needs to be artists who had an impact in that genre.

For instance, I wouldn't consider Ernie Isley as one of the best guitarists in the rock/pop music genre. True, his playing was definitely a rock-style influence that made The Isley Brothers so prominent in the 1970s but he really has no significant foothold to fans of that genre. In fact, it would be insulting to rock fans to list him on such a short list, because The Isley Brothers are far more relevant in the soul genre.

Conversely, it doesn't make sense to me for people list Dusty Springfield and Wayne Cochran because the audience in question wouldn't recognize the names or their music. It's as insulting as someone saying Blondie's "Rapture" was the first rap/hip-hop song.
[Edited 3/4/07 10:49am]

AlexdeParis said:

And not necessarily Teena Marie and George Michael, either. For instance, KC and The Sunshine Band (a white lead singer backed by a largely black band) registered four No. 1 singles on the Billboard R&B charts vs. George Michael's one. Teena Marie may have had a longer career than Lisa Stansfield, but Stansfield had greater success (three No. 1 singles on said chart vs. Marie's six Top 10 hits and one No. 1 single).

It also depends on how you define Mariah Carey, who has more white ancestry than black ancestry (yes, her father is classified as black but in reality he apparently was biracial).
[Edited 3/4/07 14:53pm]

but I am 1 of the audience, and these names I know and on hearin' these names I immedately associate them with this genre of music.
I think your attitude is more proud than black.

Soul music isn't owned by any particular race. or group of people.

thedribbler said:

Notice I never said anything about race -- you did.

The names "Dusty Springfield" and "Wayne Cochran" don't register with the typical soul music fan or most soul music fans. I've yet to hear any such format where radio stations were playing their songs or people requesting their songs, not to mention their songs have never charted on any such chart.

It's contradictory to be considered one of the so-called "best" of a genre when the genre's audience wouldn't know who you are -- wouldn't you agree that's somewhat insulting to the general audience?
[Edited 3/4/07 10:59am]

Najee said:

but I am 1 of the audience, and these names I know and on hearin' these names I immedately associate them with this genre of music.

thedribbler said:

But you're one person of the audience, and very small representation of the audience at that. The vast majority of soul music fans (which I would say is at least 99.9 percent of soul music fans) don't know who Dusty Springfield is, much less can name her songs (if anything, a lot of them would think likely that Springfield was a GUY with that name).

What makes your one opinion on such an artist (one not based on any history of that artist with that genre, but your personal taste) more valid than the vast majority's? That makes as much sense as me saying Cameo is one of the best pop/rock bands ever in the genre and basing it on the fact that Cameo used rock influences in some of their music -- and at least Cameo actually had a hit song that some non-soul music fans can identify ("Word Up!").

Maybe I'm missing something here -- that the true goal instead is to name artists who we feel have musical styles similar to styles we associate with a genre, irrespective of whether they have no presence in the genre. But it seems like it's an issue of the subjective opinion one has of an artist and genre (which you favor) vs. the definitive history of said artist's impact in that genre (which I favor).
[Edited 3/4/07 11:24am]

I would, as most people do as well as herself, define her as Black.

That's why I wouldn't use chart success as the measuring stick here but longevity and styling. I don't think there's anybody around that would argue against Teen having the best "soulful" voice for a white chick.

Najee said:

I think I have a different idea of the vast majority.
In this genre of music I'm really no more than averagely knowledgeable.

I am 1 of the vast majority.

U wasn't the 1st to mention race, because that would have exposed your oppinion as very short-sighted and unbalanced, from the very beginning.


Everyone who know cameos' music, know that the group don't only do 1 type of music. Like outkast, cameo is known for covering a wide range of styles.

CosmicTalk said:

Even the voice thing can be subjective, because I feel Lisa Stansfield equally qualifies in the voice category. And it's not like Stansfield had some fleeting success or some throwaway songs -- "Been Around the World" was a huge hit that gets as much as airplay as any Teena Marie song on such radio stations (save for her duet with Rick James, "Fire and Desire").

Personally, I would rather listen to Stansfield. However, I would agree that Marie would be the favorite given the response she receives from soul music fans. Some people I know act like she was the white Aretha Franklin (both in voice and success).
[Edited 3/4/07 12:13pm]

CosmicTalk said:

Mariah is just a popstar. she has no person integrity.
I'm sure if it wasn't cool to be black in the music business, She'd b pimpin' her whiteness.

She's a soul singer without Soul

thedribbler said:

You're the one who thinks Dusty Springfield has some foothold in soul music with its audience. All you have to do is listen to some soul radio station or look up any charted history and you can tell that Springfield doesn't resonate at all with that audience.

thedribbler said:

But not of the music genre in question. Say the name "Dusty Springfield" to the audience that makes up soul music and most people will look at you funny.

Apparently, you feel the true goal is to name artists who we feel have musical styles similar to styles we associate with a genre, irrespective of whether they have an actual presence in the genre. It seems like it's an issue of the subjective opinion one has of an artist and genre (which you favor) vs. the definitive history of said artist's impact in that genre (which I favor).

IMO, when having these type of discussions the listening audience at large must be taken into consideration. That's where I see you failing in your arguments.

thedribbler said:

Actually, you're the only one who has mentioned race as a weak defense and an invisible crutch against my argument -- I've never said anything about race. Not only that, you have no basis for even naming Springfield outside of "Because I want to!" It's totally irrespective of the audience.

thedribbler said:

Cameo's audience is the soul music genre, and outside of "Word Up!" they were invisible beyond that audience for their careers. I feel you're confusing using a particular style or phrasing in one genre (for instance, Cameo's guitar tracks) with saying they had a large appeal to the audience in that genre, which wasn't the case. The typical non-soul music fan wouldn't know who Cameo was, save for unless you mentioned, "They made that quirky song 'Word Up!' 20 years ago."
[Edited 3/4/07 12:23pm]

CosmicTalk said:

Personally, I feel Mariah Carey says that because black audiences have a tendency to "claim" people if they associate with them. Looking at her personal choices for relationships, it seems to be the opposite. But that's another issue for another thread.
[Edited 3/4/07 12:10pm]

both of r crazy, in no original way.

I don't remember if he has been mentioned or not, but I'd like to add Johnny Lang to the list. That kid has soul! His voice is husky, gritty, and he's not afraid to get a little ugly. Even if he hits a wrong note, it doesn't matter, because it just adds to his performance.

theodore said:

Yes I said her mom is white, but she publically admitted her father is Black with some Venezuelan blood..he's Al Green's complexion..can't find a picture right now.
[Edited 3/4/07 14:28pm]

Miles said:

Tom Jones...definitely..

CosmicTalk said:

That's true...he used to go to the black clubs to hear them sing...according to James Brown's last book. He was curious about the "gospel" sound and frequented those clubs constantly.

lonelygurl8305 said:

Janis Joplin? Are you kidding me? She was the baddest sista during here short time here (yes I know she's white) but d*** she could sing some gritty, bluesy soulful stuff....See "Soul" is a feeling deep inside of you and it comes right out in someone who can feel it when they sing and touch others emotionally ...(okay, I'm gonna stop right there..lol)..but you ever heard someone sing a song that made you cry? Touched you deep inside because the feeling just comes out in their voice? (<---sighing in a peaceful way)...well it's something like that. Most gospel singers know that feeling...

2elijah said:

For all those inquiring, could you post a picture of Mariah Carey's father?

Najee said:

Ok..I'll try to find one...in the meantime..here's a portion of her bio I found on the net...

MARIAH CAREY
Childhood and Famil:

"Daughter to Irish/African-American/Venezuelan descendant parents, Mariah Angela Carey was born on March 27, 1970, in Huntington, New York. Her father is Alfred Roy Carey, an aeronautical engineer, and her mother is Patricia Hickey, a former mezzo-soprano New York City opera singer and freelance vocal coach. Growing up in a multiracial family, young Mariah stumbled upon racial discrimination. Her parents divorced when she was three and Mariah continued to live with her mother.

Displaying a knack for singing early in her youth, three-year-old Mariah often imitated her mother singing. At the age of six, she started showcasing her talent in front of the public. Mariah went to Oldfield Middle School where she began developing her love of music by writing songs. While attending Harborfields High School, Mariah was nicknamed Mirage because she never showed up for class. Having a dream to be a famous singer, she did not pay much attention to her studies. After she graduated in 1987, Mariah headed to New York to pursue a career in music."
[Edited 3/4/07 14:31pm]

Najee said:

I forgot all about KC! I thought of Lisa, but I also thought Teena's reputation (coupled with her success, particularly her larger number of hit albums) gave her the edge. My favorite Stansfield song is her second #1, "You Can't Deny It."