Dangerous

whatsgoingon said:[quote]I got the impression with Invincible he was trying to go back to his roots, but didn't exactly know how to anymore.

It is funny you mentioned this becasue Thriller is a culmination of all the years of his Motown solo efforts and the Quincy Jones produced effort "Off The Wall". You can hear the soul just pulsating through 99% of the tracks, but he also had a very keen ear towards molding pop songs with a soul foundation, not the other way around. Bad and Dangerous had some moments, but by then he was the "King of Pop", therefore we ended up with "hit and miss" soul.

In all fairness to MJ, he wanted it all and after Thriller, I might have done the same thing. When you sell 50 million records, I guess one must try to repeat the formula.

I think the only album where he tried to repeat the success of Thriller was Bad. Dangerous was something completely new and different for him. He hired a new producer, he had a new sound, he tried different vocal techniques and became more lyrically and musically mature. HIStory definately was not an attempt to sell a massive amounts of records. Can you honestly hear songs like "Childhood" and "Little Susie" and tell me they were targeted at a mainstream audience? HIStory was his most personal album, and I think clearing his name and trying to change people's negative opinions about him were more important to him than album sales (at the time). Invincible is perhaps the only album apart from Thriller (he admitted that while making this album he used to dream about it becoming the biggest selling album of all-time, so he was aiming for huge commerical success) and Bad (he obviously wanted to outsell Thriller) where he wanted to be mega-successful and he may have even dreamt of outselling Thriller. I don't know what the new album will be like. I'm not sure if clearing his name, maturing as an artist, or selling a large amount of records is most important to him at this time.

general music fans would say thriller or off the wall
but if you ask fans they say dangerous or bad thats my experience
i like dangerous better then off the wall too.
only thing is that off the wall is more one sound and dangerous is very different
but gems like who is it , give in to me , will you be there, remember the time etc keep me listening to it forever

It's Off The Wall. I can play the whole thing over and over again and never get bored of it. Thriller and Dangerous are very close behind.

CinisterCee said:

Yes, yes, yes! On the whole, the outtakes are excellent! I... um, previewed them for a while, but I finally picked up the Ultimate Collection at Best Buy for $20. "Cheater," "Monkey Business," and "Sunset Driver" are funky, "We've Had Enough" should've been a single, "Someone Put Your Hand Out" is an A+ Dangerous outtake, "On the Line" is vintage Babyface, and "Fall Again" is the best song Robin Thicke wrote for someone else. Buy it!

TonyVanDam said:

No offense taken! I like "Just Good Friends" a lot (and I certainly wouldn't call it filler), but "Liberian Girl" is miles better.

"Thriller" was both a blessing and a curse. It set the tone for all albums and videos for years to come, which was a blessing, because before that,videos as well as most music were so one dimenisional and boring. The trouble is, nobody not even MJ expected it to do as well as it did. I think the reason that it did as well as it did, was due to the fact that there was nothing "great" coming out at the time. If it had been released now, I do not believe that it would do as well. The bad thing about it's success was that Michael felt that he needed to top it. This is the very thing that has hampered him from making a successful album, and by sucessful I mean numbers wise. As I have said before, just because your product is No.1 does not mean that it is your best material. "Thriller" seems to be the album that sounds the most contrived and the most work. It does not sound like he is having the "time of his life". You can hear the fun on "Off the Wall". If fact, this is the ONLY album that sounds like he was having fun. All of the others sound like work....It is almost like he is saying to himself, "I have got to top Thriller". Let's face it, this is NEVER going to happen again. He should except this and so should his fans. There is no rigt answer to this question, those who can remember, Off the Wall, will say that it was his best. Those who were born during the "Thriller" hype, will say that it was. For me, it will always be "Off the Wall" with "Invincible",(yes, I said it) a close second.

DarlingDiana said:

I understood what he was trying to do with History completely, but it's all to do with delivery. Songs like "Childhood" illustrate that whole sappyness that he got into in earnest with Dangerous. An artist can deliver a message without going all over the place, filled with sap.

An Album like "What's going on" delivered a message, which was so much more profound than MJ's History and is probably more relevant today than History could ever be, but it was done with all heart and soul and inspite of some of the themes, which dealt with God, the Earth and Children, you don't hear the sap that drips from an album like History. Now MJ once upon had the potential to be the kind of artist Marvin was, full of soul and heart, I am not saying being a Marvin Gaye imitator, but listening to the soul he had in him from his late teens to his early 20s, MJ was a soul artist through and through. But with the success of Thriller it's like his soul completely disappeared and he became the "King of Pop". I knew from that day on I was never going to pick up a Michael Jackson album and hear his soul in it again.
[Edited 2/25/07 8:55am]
[Edited 2/25/07 8:57am]

whatsgoingon said:

Stop right there. There is no song as sappy as "Chilhood" in Michael's catalog.

AlexdeParis said:

AlexdeParis said:

Childhood is one of Michael's worst song.

TonyVanDam said:

"One of"?

AlexdeParis said:

I think The Lost Children takes the sappiest MJ song award.

TonyVanDam said:

Even when Michael was 12 Motown didn't give him songs that sappy to sing. Some of MJ adult, solo stuff is so sappy that it makes Ben sound raw..

"Off the Wall" surely is a classic, "Thriller" is pop history (just like "Purple Rain" or "Dark Side of the Moon"), "Bad" is something I personally can relate to a lot and a very good pop album imo.

From "Dangerous" onwards, I think that things went down for MJ. "Dangerous" still has some very good tracks on it, but he started to overdo this whole Disney/Peter Pan vibe during that era imo. For me, it's the record where he became a megalomaniac just interested in overblowing everything. Also, he started to overdo that whole "Let's save the world" shit - it was kinda o.k. on "Man in the Mirror", but "Heal the World" just made me (politics for 8-year olds).

Things got worse then with "History" (though I think that "Scream" and "You're not Alone" still was good), and ever since, he's nothing else but a joke for me. Sad.
[Edited 2/25/07 10:34am]

pjh1972 said:

"Childhood" wins because it has a much higher profile. I've managed to pretend "The Lost Children" doesn't exist for about 6 years now. In fact, I can't even hum it right now. "Childhood" is burned into my brain and there's no escape from its evil.

AlexdeParis said:

But why do you think he became so sappy at such an advance age, as I said even when he was a child he never sounded that sappy. It makes me wonder whether it was a ploy to appear even more child-like, more timid and more of the victim. I mean he never sounded so child-like or timid at 18 or 20. It's one of the reasons why I truely believe his latter albums were contrieved to the hilt.
[Edited 2/25/07 10:56am]

CinisterCee said:

I forgot to say, I really prefer the 1973 Mix of "Call On Me" available on Anthology and Love Songs.

CinisterCee said:

I have that same Anthology compilation Motown released, and to me, it's the best retrospective that covers his tenture at Motown. Although I'm not too fond of the stuff he did at Motown, some of those songs on there are killer like the Call On Me mix, Cinderella Stay Awhile, Dear Michael, You Are There, With A Child's Heart, and Who's Looking For A Lover.
[Edited 2/25/07 12:00pm]

silverchild said:

We're Almost There, Take Me Back...


I agree, if anyone here still hasn't heard his solo Motown stuff and would like the best of it, it's on the Anthology, which even includes good songs that weren't singles and the previously unreleased mixes worth hearing.

Yes, his Motown albums are underrated by most of y'all.

But I agree: his best album is Off The Wall.

whatsgoingon said:

I wouldn't say it's contrived at all. I think little Michael was singing, dancing, and doing what he was told. It makes sense to me that he would start to reflect on his unusual upbringing once he reached adulthood. Yes, "Childhood" is sappy (and awful), but it certainly rings true that Michael was/is looking for a childhood he never really had. OTOH, I find most of his other so-called sappy songs to range from good to great. I don't care what anyone says -- I love "Heal the World" and "Earth Song"! Messages don't have to be complex to be powerful; sometimes simple is effective. Besides, he's done plenty of songs that aren't childlike in the slightest ("Dirty Diana," "Stranger in Moscow," "They Don't Care About Us," "In the Closet," "Who Is It," etc.). I understand that you don't like the post-Thriller albums much, but I think you make too many generalizations about them.

AlexdeParis said:

Most of his material post-thriller just doesn't do it for me, I don't hear anything that make me swoon nor makes me wanna jam. With the exception of Stranger in Moscow and maybe Man in the Mirror, his songs just sound so hollow and just lack the soul he once had on his previous material. I know alot of fans think Dirty Diana, Scream, Black and White, They Don't Care about us etc are great, but I don't feel anything when I listen to them. I understand what he is trying to say and the message he is trying to convey but I just don't feel the soul and funk in his music anymore. I hear pop, rock and sap and I am not fan of those genres.

And although little MJ didn't have much say in his motown days, I do believe his natural leaning was Soul, Motown couldn't teach him to sing like that. They couldn't teach him to sing that version of "Whose Loving You" or "Can You Remember" with so much soul. He had so much soul it hurt, he just lost it along the way somewhere.
[Edited 2/25/07 14:42pm]
[Edited 2/25/07 14:47pm]

EmancipationLover said:

Like what I told a lot of people in past threads, Michael needs to stop making the We Are The World-type bullshyt and just focus on making good uptempo dance tracks.

AlexdeParis said:

You're right. Childhood is f***ing whack!!!!

My reasoning is from a business standpoint:

How in the hell could go from being piss-off with the media for the way they made fun of him (.....stop f***ing with me, you make me wanna scream!!!) to doing a sad face (BTW.....have you seen my childhood?). Someone should have told Michael to get the hell out of the studio with that crap!

A little off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

Does anyone know exactly what songs Michael plays instruments on?

Michael is credited for playing keyboard, synthesizers, guitar, drums and percussion on HIStory. But it doesn't say what songs. Does anyone know?

He is also credited a lot on Invincible for playing instruments...

Unbreakable - All musical instruments performed by Michael Jackson and Rodney Jerkins

Break of Dawn - All music instruments performed by Michael Jackson, Dr. Freeze, Rodney Jerkins and Teddy Riley

You Rock My World - All musical instruments performed by Michael Jackson and Rodney Jerkins

Threatened - All musical instruments performed by Michael Jackson and Rodney Jerkins

But again, it doesn't say what instruments. Michael and Darkchild played all the instruments, but who played which instruments? For all we know Darkchild could've played them all except for the bassline, which Michael did. Or something like that.

So does anyone have any further information on Michael's instrumental involvement on HIStory and Invincible?
[Edited 2/25/07 22:26pm]

Jus had a read through the credits of his other albums, and he has done a little bit of instrumental work on Off The Wall and Thriller (mostly auxilary percussion).

Don't Stop Til You Get Enough: Percussion
Working Day and Night: Percussion
Beat It: Drum case beater
PYT: Handclaps
[Edited 2/25/07 22:35pm]