some of the songs from the confessions era had a little bit of an mj vibe, such as that song he dances to at the beginning of rhythm city, the one with the bassline; and ripping off the line from billie jean(mother always told me be careful who you do/love) in his song caught up; the beatboxing at the beginning of you make me wanna(although I know mj is NOT the first to do it) with the mj moves at the beginning of the video give both the music and visuals an mj vibe. Usher's music is his own, but you can hear different influences in it, including mj ones along with the other new jack swing artists you mentioned. I also agree there is some janet influence in his work too, he's looked up to a lot of great musical artists.

you say mj didn't get much radio airplay in the late 80's and early 90's(at least in the US), but that doesn't mean he wasn't constantly on mtv, friday night videos, BET, on people's stereos etc. and that sure didn't keep him from getting 5 number ones from one album on the billboard chart, a record usher came close to beating but it didn't happen! and I'm sure usher wasn't deprived of all that and subconsciously part of that influenced him, whether musically or visually.
[Edited 1/31/07 8:00am]

alphastreet said:

As a teen-ager growing up in the 1980s, a lot of Michael Jackson's music didn't get played or videos seen in traditional soul music markets once Epic's initial marketing pushes ended for that particular single. Yes, Billboard charted some of Jackson's singles as No. 1 songs on the R&B Singles charts, but how Billboard calculated sales and radio ariplay numbers for certain situations (like huge crossover acts) was inaccurate.

In the 1980s, people like Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie were credited for No. 1 singles on the Billboard R&B Singles charts because the numbers for the pop and Top 40 stations automatically were carried over into calculations for the soul numbers, and sales were not sorted by demographics. So songs like "Hello" and "Beat It" -- even though they received hardly any play on radio stations and were not exactly being bought in droves by soul music fans -- ended up counted as No. 1 singles. It was basically assumed that if (white) pop radio stations and fans liked Richie's or Jackson's music, then (black) soul stations and fans were eating it up like candy.

Jackson was a huge enough crossover act that resistance from soul formats weren't going to impact his short-term sales or chart position. So yeah, MJ didn't need a BET or certain radio stations for his exposure, and even if you didn't want to hear or see an MJ song or video he was all over the place.

There were some songs from MJ that received airplay and credit from soul formats -- "Billie Jean," "Human Nature" and "Wanna Be Startin' Something" immediately come to mind. If anything, those are the post-"Off the Wall" MJ songs I hear black Americans playing then and now and those are the songs that I've heard soul acts incorporate in some fashion in their style. But for a lot of his songs, it's a stretch to give MJ this far-reaching influence in soul acts.
[Edited 1/31/07 9:46am]

that was interesting to read, and yet weird at the same time LOL I remember hello and all night long being huge hits too that were hard to get away from. The other day Hello was on the radio and my grandma told me her sister has a lionel richie tape and I cracked up people like lionel, mj and prince seemed huge to me though I was so young then, but they must have been if grandmas were rocking that stuff, you don't hear about older people rocking to ne yo or usher do you

I know these songs came a time when hip hop and rap was emerging and disco-r&b was still getting airplay, so it's a bit hard to imagine that listeners of r&b/soul music wouldn't embrace these artists.....
[Edited 1/31/07 8:35am]

alphastreet said:

This is what I mean about how certain aspects (namely, by non-black Americans) are being attributed to Michael Jackson. Just like there is this inaccurate assumption that Jackson created the moonwalk (a dance step done by pop-lockers and breakdancers years before MJ did in it on "Motown 25"), when has MJ EVER BEEN associated with the beat box vocal style?

None of this stuff is directly tied to Jackson solely -- I mean, how many songs were recorded before "Billie Jean" where acts say some "Mama said so-and-so"-type lyric in it? It's too much of an assumption that every black male singer who can dance is some byproduct of Jackson.
[Edited 1/31/07 8:46am]

I know mj didn't create the moonwalk already, nor the beatboxing like I already mentioned. Who knows if it's society's conditioning or what but though I know of other material from the 80's that had the same sounds to it or something similar, I always tend to listen to the jackson stuff once again....

I've also seen songs and videos that came out before certain mj material but had similarities so that kind of made me think as well. To be honest in the 80's I wasn't a fan of anybody I liked everyone cause everyone had something good to offer: madonna, prince, cyndi lauper, phil collins, sade, paula abdul, jacksons, lionel richie, george michael, bon jovi, whitney, duran duran, culture club, whoever out there was having hits. There were very few bad songs out there and people were in it for the talent it seemed, even the sex-obsessed singers and womanizing singers had something to bring to the table. In the 90's I didn't like everything I heard though I did love a lot of songs out there. But when I put new stuff from long time artists against those contemporary hits, they put the newbies to shame big time!

I have another good example. Janet's control and rhythm nation. Those had great songs but some of janet's fans act like there were no other female artists out there. I think jody watley and pebbles sometimes gave janet a run for her money at times, especially jody who I think dances slightly better than janet and had amazing videos.
[Edited 1/31/07 8:44am]
[Edited 1/31/07 8:48am]

alphastreet said:

Again, a somewhat inaccurate assumption in regards to pop culture music: If certain black acts were big with white audiences, then they were huge with black music-buying audiences. By the early to mid-1980s, a lot of Lionel Richie's and Michael Jackson's music met resistance from soul radio formats and from music buyers.

Songs like "All Night Long" (top 40/AC) and "Beat It" (top 40/pop) dominated other formats, but were hardly embraced by a lot of soul music listeners. Nevertheless, because of that assumption their numbers were tossed in with other acts in the soul music genre and ended up giving them No. 1 singles, according to Billboard.

For instance, Richie's "All Night Long" was a No. 1 single on the Billboard R&B Singles chart for seven weeks -- when was the last time you ever heard "All Night Long" on a soul music format or diehard soul music fans playing "All Night Long?" If anything, the song is routinely blasted by soul music fans and considered one of the songs (if not, THE song) in which Richie jumped the shark.

Najee said:

so to quote chris tucker "lionel richie aint been black since the commodores" I guess it was funny, but now I see the politics behind that statement.....

so how did the r&b/hip hop charts seperate itself from billboard? cause till this day I always thought that whatever numbers were mainstream automatically went towards there too and vice versa. I don't understand how on billboard hot 100, ludacris's album was at #1 and janet's 20 Y.O. at #2 while on the billboard r&b/hip hop charts it was the other way around with janet at #1 and luda at #2. Didn't they count the same quantities?
[Edited 1/31/07 8:55am]

alphastreet said:

Don't get me wrong, I feel Michael Jackson had a huge impact on music in the 1980s -- particularly in the marketing of music via videos and the multi-hit album concept. MJ certainly did have an impact on soul music earlier in the decade (mainly from the "Off the Wall" album and songs like "Billie Jean" and "Human Nature").

However, I feel that from that point forward Jackson's influence in soul music was diminished and from that standpoint I don't see much musical commonalities in acts like Usher. Soul markets were shying away from MJ in the latter '80s because starting with his "Bad" album. Pretty much what commonalities I see in Usher are more with Bobby Brown.

alphastreet said:

From a soul music standpoint, Janet Jackson's "Control" was the table-setter for females making uptempo music. As vainandy will tell you, acts like Whitney Houston, Freddie Jackson and Luther Vandross were becoming more of the norm and outside of Cameo, there weren't a whole lot of top soul acts consistently making uptempo dance music before "Control."
[Edited 1/31/07 9:15am]

Najee said:

No doubt, you make valid points. I was going on interviews and commentaries where Usher has referenced MJ as his idol and influence. Before KingKrazy and you referenced these comments about BB, I didn't know about that connection. But far be it from me to tell him who his influences were growing up. If he insists, as you say, that BB is his first AND main influence, then that's what it is.

The medical evidence you cite does seem to undermine a/s's credibility as to what she specifically remembers, but it doesn't change the likelihood that a/s may very well have done what she said. It just changes the context in which a/s cites MJ as a life influence, by way of either direct recollection (which is presumed to be unlikely for the sake of argument) or refreshed recollection (through watching recorded material OR speaking with witnesses who observed her during that time). It still supports her point that even as a child of the 80's, Usher was likely influenced (to some degree) by MJ, who was ubiquitous during that decade. Her opinion is bolstered by the comments of Usher himself.


But HOW the artist became an influence is irrelevant. It's the existence, not the origin, of the influence that really counts for our purposes.
[Edited 1/31/07 9:17am]

alphastreet said:

Since Billboard starting using SoundScan in 1991, Billboard is a lot more accurate in tracking sales. Previously, Billboard tracked sales by calling stores across the United States and asking about sales, a method that was inherently error-prone and open to outright fraud. Sales tracking now allows for sales to be sorted out by demographics, which could be the explanation.
[Edited 1/31/07 9:13am]

Najee said:

I think we're going in circles on the influence track. But some of what you say is not quite accurate. Several of MJ's singles from Thriller and Bad topped the R&B charts.

http://www.billboard.com/...mId=760769

But assuming that MJ isn't the primary influence, it stands to reason that those artists of the late 80's and early 90's would be Usher's primary influences (just as James influenced MJ growing up and Santana influenced Prince growing up). And that Usher shares more in common musically with Janet (who found a way to straddle the long-term trends in black music really well) than MJ.
[Edited 1/31/07 9:30am]

that study does sound interesting but it's all about whether it used a representative sample or not when asking them stuff about what they first recall in their early lives, cause it doesn't apply to everyone, and it is dependent on the cultural context and life experiences of that point in their lives.

good points namepeace and thanks for the history lesson najee

namepeace said:

To be fair, Michael Jackson set the template for most artists in terms of music videos. Musically, Usher has more common traits with Bobby Brown -- namely, a decidedly soul-oriented music style and persona that has managed to appeal to a wide demographic. Prior to Brown, most soul acts had to modify their musical approach to appeal to a mainstream (white) audience -- with Jackson being among the most visible offenders of making deliberate crossover music.
[Edited 1/31/07 9:27am]

Najee said:

well bobby may have been a soul act but every little step and my perogative are about as mainstream pop as you can get.

Najee said:

Agreed. And as we both know, MJ was in the right place at the right time. MTV came along too late for James, Jackie, Marvin, Curtis, et al. Circumstances played as much a part in MJ becoming a megastar as MJ did.

alphastreet said:

There is nothing pop-oriented about the sound of Bobby Brown's "My Prerogative," in fact, it has one of the most progressive grooves created by producer Teddy Riley. I never heard of a Riley record ever being called "crossover" -- in fact, I was surprised that "My Prerogative" actually did become a pop hit.

As for "Every Little Step," it was a classic L.A. Reid and Babyface pop/soul song -- and it was typical for LaFace songs to become hits on both charts, because of its SOLAR Records sensibilities.

But "Every Little Step" and especially "My Prerogative" are way more progressive soul songs than anything Michael Jackson put out since "Thriller," and especially on the "Bad" album.
[Edited 1/31/07 12:57pm]

I'm aware that babyface, teddy riley and the like worked on this stuff but it would be naive to say there isn't some kind of pop/rock influence merged with the r&b and hip hop/soul grooves in the music. Every little step sounds very prince inspired if you ask me(think lets go crazy), and prince wasn't exactly being embraced by black radio much either in the 80's was he?
[Edited 1/31/07 9:50am]

namepeace said:

This was explained how Billboard inaccurately tracked information for crossover acts like Michael Jackson, and lumping sales and airplay numbers from Top 40, pop and adult contemporary formats into the numbers for soul music formats.

Anyone who was listening to soul music in the mid-1980s (like vainandy) can tell you that some of Michael Jackson's music had no presence in soul music formats -- do you actually believe that in an age of the emergence of rap and the dominance of The Minneapolis Sound that hard-rock songs like "Beat It" and "Dirty Diana" were being purchased in wholesale by that audience?

Najee said:

I don't know if I'd go that far . . . "Baby Be Mine," "Remember The Time" and "Butterflies" being evidence to the contrary.

(Ellie and dag would be proud of me, I of all people have become the MJ apologist on this thread!!!!)
[Edited 1/31/07 9:55am]

alphastreet said:

No, "Every Little Step" sounds like a classic L.A. Reid and Babyface song -- just like The Whispers' "Rock Steady," The MAC Band's "Roses Are Red" and Pebbles' "Girlfriend," the song had the same SOLAR Records-inspired soul underlying grooves and pop sensibilities on the chords and arrangement. I have no idea where you're picking up the similarity to Prince's "Let's Go Crazy," which is a frenetic rock song.

If anything, the LaFace sound owes heavily to producer Leon Sylvers and SOLAR Records founder Dick Griffey, from whom The Deele (L.A. Reid and Babyface's former group), Shalamar and The Whispers honed their sound.
[Edited 1/31/07 11:19am]

namepeace: good point about butterflies. He gained support from black radio after AGES when it came to the r&b tracks on invincible, but mj made the mistake of NOT acknowledging this by trying to appeal to mainstream and that backfiring

najee: but who's to say la reid, babyface and teddy riley weren't inspired by prince, along with many other names? I'm not saying it sounds exactly like lets go crazy, I'm just saying I can hear inspiration from different places in this type of music and prince is one of them.

I gotta get offline now but we shall continue this discussion soon. Take care.

namepeace said:

"Baby Me Mine" has a light jazz/watered-down soul music style, a la George Benson's music during that time period.

"Remember the Time" is basically a Teddy Riley version of the Michael Jackson sound -- a good song, but it's not nearly as explosive as "My Prerogative."

"Butterflies" was fine, but better than any of the hits on the "Don't Be Cruel" album? I don't know about that one.
[Edited 1/31/07 11:14am]

Najee said:

This was explained how Billboard inaccurately tracked information for crossover acts like Michael Jackson, and lumping sales and airplay numbers from Top 40, pop and adult contemporary formats into the numbers for soul music formats.

Anyone who was listening to soul music in the mid-1980s (like vainandy) can tell you that some of Michael Jackson's music had no presence in soul music formats -- do you actually believe that in an age of the emergence of rap and the dominance of The Minneapolis Sound that hard-rock songs like "Beat It" and "Dirty Diana" were being purchased in wholesale by that audience? [/quote]

I know what happened. I believe I was there. But let's go back.

I said SOME of what you said was inaccurate, remember?



The charting evidence shows that portion of your argument was inaccurate. As you know, charts are based on spins as well as sales. It is entirely possible the singles got played to death on black radio but no one bought'em. That material might account for a decline in sales (see below) but isn't relevant to your original argument. You talk of inaccuracies in charting, and that's all well and good, but that's just you talking.

And as I'm sure you know, hip-hop was an emerging but nowhere near dominant presence on black radio. The "Minneapolis Sound" (which I'm sure doesn't include its putative founder, Prince, who belongs in a separate category) -- from the SOS Band and Cherelle to Janet, et al. -- was omnipresent, and New Jack Swing was a great, radio-friendly synthesis. Hip-hop (which wasn't greatly marketed and heavily bootlegged) wasn't an omnipresent radio force until the end of the decade, and even then, most singles (as opposed to albums) were charted separately, until they became so much a part of black radio they consolidated the category. And they weren't on black radio for the most part because of the increasingly explicit material.

Michael Jackson was pretty much unavoidable on black AND white radio. Because he sold and therefore programmers assumed MJ was gold on any format.

Hip-hop as a whole ruled the streets, campuses, and yes suburbs. MJ and Prince's music suffered commercially and image-wise as a result.

If you're saying black people weren't listening to Thriller, then well, that's your argument. I know I wasn't listening to MJ after the mid-80's. As you indicated, his sound didn't appeal to me after that. During that time, I started turning off the radio and putting hip-hop, Prince, Keith Sweat, et al. on my cassette player. Because black radio, like white radio, was somewhat behind the times when it came to black music.
[Edited 1/31/07 10:11am]
[Edited 1/31/07 10:13am]

namepeace said:

Actually, a lot of Michael Jackson's 1980s songs were not played regularly nor enjoyed a high rotation on soul music formats. Not only I was a teen-ager and music-buyer in the 1980s, I knew disc jockeys personally and later obtained an FCC license in that decade.

Songs like "Beat It," "Thriller," "I Can't Stop Loving You" and "Dirty Diana" did not enjoy heavy rotation on soul music formats' playlists, outside of the initial playing push that came from the marketing of Epic Records. "Beat It" and "Dirty Diana" are hard-rock songs, while "I Can't Stop Loving You" is a sappy pop ballad. "Thriller" was a fixture on video channels, but that was pretty much it.

The sales and airplay numbers from pop and Top 40 stations from acts like Michael Jackson were lumped in with their soul tracking numbers, based on the assumption he was a black popular recording arist. So yeah, Billboard's information on song playlists and sales were equally inaccurate for massive acts like Jackson in the 1980s. Songs like "Billie Jean" and "Human Nature" were evidently fixtures, but some of the other songs met resistance and never received quite the same response from soul markets as they did pop markets.

So in other words, I will say you would be very hard pressed to name the last time you heard "Beat It" or "I Can't Stop Loving You" on any soul music format station (contemporary, '70s and '80s format), because the fact is those songs never were as received in soul music as Billboard would lead you to believe.
[Edited 1/31/07 11:31am]

namepeace said:

Actually, acts like Run-DMC, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, The Sugar Hill Gang and Whodini were regular fixtures on soul music radio formats. Acts like UTFO released "Roxanne, Roxanne" during this period, and then you had rap-influenced tracks like Chaka Khan's "I Feel for You," which dominated the markets.

And yes, I included Prince in the mentioning of The Minneapolis Sound. Prince and his protege acts like The Time were constant fixtures, as well as similar-sounding acts.

And let's not distort the argument -- I never said Michael Jackson had no presence in soul music during "Thriller." Obviously, songs like "Billie Jean," "Wanna Be Starting Something" and "Human Nature" were major songs in the format, which I've said ad nauseum. It's songs like "Beat It," "Thriller" and "The Girl Is Mine" that are questionable.

namepeace said:

No, I didn't say black Americans weren't listening to "Thriller" in 1983 -- I said some of the released singles from the album did not have the impact in the soul markets as they did on the pop markets, and inaccurate assumptions about compiling information of crossover artists led to some rather out-of-kilter results (see "Beat It" on the Billboard R&B Singles charts).
[Edited 1/31/07 11:08am]

Najee said:

In the 80's, I lived in three different markets. Each of their largest radio stations played a lot of MJ during the time he was out. I knew the owner of the black radio stations in that market, and referring to MJ and other R&B acts getting play over the hip-hop acts of the time. Why? Because his airplay, even then, was dominated by computer programming. If it wasn't on the list, it didn't get played.



Style is one thing on which we agree. Spins is another. Regardless of the style, even as you (partially) concede, MJ did get heavy singles push on black radio, even with his weaker stuff.



Yet, at the same time, you admit that there was even on black radio, an initial marketing push, where MJ broke the rotation for periods of time. Hell, just about every single he released got played on black radio to a certain extent. he was the 800-lb gorilla in music, period. His joints may not have stayed long, but still, he got his spins, for the very reasons you identified: 1) the label pushed them, and 2) the chartings, even if inaccurate, drove black radio to play those weak singles, at least for a while, due to the fact that the reporting was a factor in determining spins. That's all I'm saying.

Take the radio station owner I referred to. If the computer programming factored in Billboard reports, and thus MJ made the list, and he didn't get played, there'd be hell to pay.

I don't think we disagree, not in the least bit, on the dynamics of black radio post-Thriller.

Najee said:

I know they were spun, but I don't think that, save for Run-DMC, the singles charted particularly well. In any event, save for Run-DMC, rap singles usually weren't backed by albums (at least backinaday), and didn't find a promotional force to get the foothold it needed. They were all over the radio in the early-to-mid 80's. But thereafter -- the late 80's to early 90's, the period to which I was really referring -- the increasingly explicit sound of rap music helped rappers move albums, but not singles (at least, not always). At the beginning of the decade, a rapper's success hinged on singles that could get on the radio. Towards the end, a rapper's success hinged on albums featuring material that could NOT get on the radio.

And to be sure, Chaka Khan is only one example of an artist that helped take the hip-hop sound "retail," but it took a commodity like Chaka to do it.




I know what you're saying, but The Minneapolis Sound moniker can be confusing. It is equally attributable to the Jam and Lewis contingent, which was producing hit records on black radio beginning in the early 80's, and arguably had a stronger presence on black radio in the 80's and 90's.

Prince is more in the MJ category, as a market in and of himself, and to the extent that his increasingly eclectic sound failed to connect with black audiences as the decade progressed. Because he was Prince, he got his stuff spun (for the same reasons you cited for MJ -- label push). And IIRC, Prince's proteges began disappearing from the radio around the time Sheila E.'s last album with Paisley Park was released, with a brief resurgence after The Time released Pandemonium.



Not distorting the argument, what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how crappy or unsuitable the single was for black radio. If MJ slapped his name on it, it got play (for even, as you admit, a limited period of time).



All I know is, "Beat It" ain't a soul record, but it got play on black radio. Unless my ears deceived me.
[Edited 1/31/07 11:55am]
[Edited 1/31/07 11:55am]

namepeace said:

In the 1980s, recording labels placed conditions on how songs were played on radio station formats -- namely, that certain artists' songs would have to be played in the initial stages of a marketing push in order for that station to continue receiving songs for later product. For instance, if ABCD-FM wanted to continue getting releases from Motown, it would have to play Lionel Richie's "All Night Long" a certain amount of times per day in order to create a market for it.

A major act like Michael Jackson is always going to have his music played at least a certain amount of times per day, especially in the early weeks of a release. However, the reaction to said songs is going to be different -- songs like "Billie Jean," "Human Nature" and "Wanna be Starting Something" were much better received by the soul market audience than songs like "The Girl Is Mine" and "Beat It," which are evidently Top 40/pop songs. Once the constraints were lifted, those latter songs were ditched because of low listening demand.

namepeace said:

Where we seem to have a misunderstanding is that you're assuming that stuff like "Beat It" was being played on soul music formats initially because soul music fans were eating it up. In reality, a song like "Beat It" didn't fit the format and once the marketing constraints were released it was rarely heard again on soul music formats.

Think about it like this: There are plenty of "old-school" '70s and '80s soul music stations across the country and likely in your listening area. When was the last time you heard songs like "Beat It" or "I Can't Stop Loving You" or "Dirty Diana" on those formats? You simply don't hear those MJ songs at all on those stations -- typically, it's "Billie Jean," "Human Nature," the album track "Lady in My Life," possibly "Wanna Be Starting Something" or something from the "Off the Wall" album.

The reason why is that a song like "Beat It" was never one that soul music listeners embraced, and if there was a fanbase for that song it still would receive play in those formats.

namepeace said:

No, the record labels' conditions on radio stations playing songs drove songs like "Beat It" to be played initially on soul radio stations. Once the single was out and the stations were past their constraints, songs like "Beat It" immediately fell off the playlists. It wasn't because of "weak quality" -- the songs simply didn't fit the format for that particular audience.

All you have to do is listen to a soul music station that plays music from that period, and a song like "Beat It" is never played. It was a huge pop hit, but Billboard inaccurately assumed that it also meant that soul music fans were eating it up because MJ was a black popular recording artist. Even yet, just ask general music fans and see what kind of response you will get from a soul music fan vs. a pop/top 40 music fan on "Beat It."
[Edited 1/31/07 12:28pm]

namepeace said:

Again, how Billboard collected information for sales and airplay was incredibly inaccurate. Billboard used to call certain music stores and asked them how many sales they had on a song! I remember some stores not even selling maxi-singles, so based on how Billboard gathered information those acts who solely released 12" singles would be hurt.

Rap acts did get plenty of play on black radio stations -- keep in mind that acts like Run-DMC and Whodini started coming to the scene in the early 1980s, and started charting well despite the sales inaccuracies.

namepeace said:

Yeah, it got played because of what I said in the previous post and it was the follow-up to "Billie Jean." But once the initial marketing constraints were released, most soul music formats dropped the song from the playlists.