namepeace said:

My brother & I were listening to that when we rolled into the parking lot at Graceland. Coincidence, I swear!

JasonStar said:

The Rat Rack always wins!

One thing Frank Sinatra had over Elvis was control over his career and the balls to say no. Elvis was a pawn of Col. Tom Parker, who pimped his man out to the Hollywood studios. Elvis had actually shown dramatic talent in films like "Wild in the Country", "Flaming Star" and "King Creole", but that's as far as the Colonel let him go. Elvis was actually offered roles in films that would've let fans see him in a whole new light, but the Colonel turned 'em down for s**t like "Clambake"...And Elvis didn't protest one bit.

Well, at least he got to bang Ann Margaret

My favorite all-time Elvis movie is "Loving You". 1957 Elvis was the man!

I don't give a shit who was more respected, or who was more cool, or who had more control over their career. Elvis Presley, despite what happened to him in the later years of his life, or the long series of crappy films he had to do, was probably the most amazing performer of his time. Not only that, but he was wild, he was controversial, he brought something new to the table. He was the first rebel of rock and roll. He was the first guy that parents were afraid of. I bet there wasn't too many parents that banned their kids from listenting to or watching Frank Sinatra. And that to me, is what is really cool. Rebellious and controversial is way more cooler than suave and sophisticated. And have you heard the guy's music? It was all unbelievable. His pre-army stuff was so wild, dirty and raw. I love it. So what if he got hooked on drugs and fatty foods? So what if he got himself caught up in a long contract of making crappy films? There was a short period of two years (1956 and 1957) that will live on forever. Those two years of Elvis Presley's career, shit all over Sinatra's entire career. Elvis is the KING!

Elvis. Frank was a great singer, but thank god Elvis saved us from that kind of music. (for awhile, anyway, until he started recording in that style in the 60's & 70's).

DarlingDiana said:

I take it you're an Elvis fan...

namepeace said:

... a lyric/comment he later retracted. Elvis was no racist (simple and plain is up for debate), but Sinatra - despite his close friendship with Sammy Davis, not to mention Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald, plus all the work he did for black charities - was well known for his racist outbursts.

namepeace said:

Yeah Elvis died a pretty undignified death that he brought on himself from all the excess. People just love to ridicule that sort of thing it seems.

KidOmega said:

Yeah, everything comes full circle.


I don't think I ever needed saving from Frank's music though. But it's true that Elvis really made a breakthough and paved the way for other rock artists after that. Some would say that's a bad thing, but it really makes we wonder what sort of path rock music would have taken if Elvis didn't become big. I have to give him that at least. Or maybe someone else would have come along and done the same thing, who knows?

I still prefer Frank though.

Go watch all their movies and then get back to me...

Shapeshifter said:

Indeed. But the riff was still devastating and resonated then and now with his audience.

namepeace said:

Of course. It's one of the greatest lyrics ever written.

lilgish said:

Watching all 32 Elvis movies is torture. I saw most of them on British tv aduring Christmas 1978. Only King Creole was less crap than the others. They're a crushing embarassment.

Sinatra made his fair share of crap films (some of them simply because he refused to do more than two takes), but he left behind a few classics - which I've already named, so he easily beats Elvis in the movie stakes.

Shapeshifter said:

I mean, LL went after Prince, MJ, Bruce and Madonna in "Rock The Bells." Other rappers just went at each other. Chuck threw the gauntlet down on ICONS. If you didn't know before that hip-hop wasn't going anywhere, you knew then.

I'm no great Sinatra-fan, tho I respect him and keep meaning to get hold of a few of his best albums. I like him, but don't love him.

As for Elvis - He is just my all-time favourate singer. I've loved (most of) his work since I was 9 years old. While I am well aware of all his music, my personal favourate Elvis period has to be 1968 - 1971-ish, and then the '70s in general. If you actually bother to listen at length to his later work, among a little schlock, you'll find one of the great singers of all time.

Yes, he sang a few too many regretful country ballads in his later career, but boy, he could sing 'em. Cos he felt 'em.

What singer other than Elvis has so successfully performed songs in so many different styles? Rock n' Roll, ballads, blues, country, soul, gospel, pop, standards; if you watch the film 'Elvis: That's the Way It Is', a concert film of Elvis in his true prime in 1970, slim, hungry and unpredictable, his range is awesome.

Also, I think he was stifled as an actor by his/ Colonel Parker's choice of films overall, tho I'd say that 'King Creole' is his best, 'Jailhouse Rock' is good and I have a soft spot for 'Viva Las Vegas', cos it's a whole mess of fun, and it's got the divine Ann-Margret too.

While he was obviously one of the great 'rock n' roll' artists (I class the more limited Little Richard as his superior in general in that area tho. And I'm always loath to use the 'R n' R' word, as it was really just rhythm & blues), imo Elvis was at heart a great ballads and gospel singer. I think he was one of the best white gospel and soul singers ever. His great 1976-77 live performances of 'How Great Thou Art' are spine-tingling (and I'm not a believer).

So, for me -

For vocal technique - Sinatra was the better 'technician', as he was from a jazz/ big band background. Elvis was always a more instinctive soulful singer, tho his best 'technical' singing can be found on classic early '60s albums like
'Elvis Is Back' and 'Something For Everybody', and it is impressive imo.

Sinatra for me was generally more superficial, while Elvis at his best gets me in the gut. He makes you 'feel' whatever he's singing about.

Socially and politically speaking, while it seems Elvis' own politics were rather conservative (but never racist), I think he did for popular music what Martin Luther King did for civil rights. He was one of the main people who kicked down the door for all artists, black and white, to perform any music they felt like doing, and not get dissed for it. He knew that music has no colour.

So I'd say Elvis' had greater impact overall.

Now, for a real humdinger of a debate, I'd go for 'Elvis vs. James Brown'. For me, that would be like choosing between favourate parents. These two were a mutual respect society and are more similar than many think imo. I'll bet thry're jamming on old gospel songs up there right now ...

Miles said:

This is key to Elvis. He's accused (justifiedly, to some degree) of ripping off folks like Little Richard, but I can't really imagine Richard singing Love Me Tender or Suspicious Minds.

Elvis really was original, even though it's true he didn't create Rock & Roll.

Wow! Comparing these two is like comparing Apples to bricks.

guitarslinger44 said:

guitarslinger44 said:

I was pelted with both as a kid, and I much preferred apples

NDRU said:

NDRU said:

Whatever my feelings about Elvis' "originality," I can say that his versatility is very impressive. He was a great gospel singer, one of the most successful country singers of all time, in addition to what he did as a pop/rock star.

fuhgetabadit frankie blue eyes all da way

Miles said:

Miles, I'm with you on Elvis. I think he was one of the greatest singers of all time. I'm a huge fan of his 70s period. All of it. Even those car crash final concerts, where he'd pull roses out of ruins.

However, I ALSO think Frank Sinatra was one of the greatest singers of all time. Superficial he was absolutely not. He could really wring the full gamut of emotion from ANY song he chose to sing. Listen to those classic, battered torch albums he made - In The Small Hours Of The Morning, Sings For Only The Lonely, No One Cares, September of My Years, Where Are You, Watertown, even She Shot Me Down. They're dark heartbreakers - ruminations on lost love, lost youth and lost time. Don't forget that Sinatra virtually invented the concept of the modern album with In The Wee Small Hours. It was his decision to make an album that worked as a thematic whole, that told a loose story if you like, instead of simply a collection of rag tag songs. Sinatra was very much a visionary, not simply a singer of other people's songs.

He made a superb bossa nova with Jobim, which is in itself a career peak for both artists.

He made quasi-pop with Songs For Swinging Lovers, Nice N Easy, Come Dance With Me. There was nothing superficial about those albums - irrespective of the feelings a song like I've Got You Under My Skin may evoke. Listen to Nelson Riddle's arrangements, listen to the strings, then listen to the way Sinatra moulds his voice to the song's contours.

Sure, he made his fair share of stinkers. But so did Elvis. The Hollywood period is barren. And, towards the end of his life, Elvis grew so thoroughly disenchanted with his career that you could hear his complete disengagement from his material. Sinatra's decline was gradual, but he - mostly - always delivered 110%. Especially on stage.

Shapeshifter said:

You're tempting me to get more into Frank, Shapeshifter. When funds allow, I may have to investigate his catalogue further. I was being slightly dismissive with my 'superficial' comment above, as you've reminded me. Doing my research, it seems that most Frank from the mid-'50s - early-'60s is a must, and the rest, while patchy, has its moments.

As to Elvis, I certainly agree with you about his late career. His life and health were in total, mostly self-inflicted, meltdown, and he should have been in a hospital or detox clinic rather than onstage in 1976-77, but on occasions, he could still do 'it'. Even in his last ever concert (Indianapolis 26 June 1977, friends! ), which I have er, acquired, he still delivers, if inconsistantly. He never quite lost what it was that made him great in the first place.

As you say, in his final years on stage, along with the tragic pathos of his obvious decline, there is often a moment or two of triumph when least expected, mainly in performances of 'big-voice' numbers like 'How Great Thou Art', 'Unchained Melody', 'Bridge Over Troubled Water' and 'It's Now Or Never'. He suddenly rouses himself from the depths and, as with 'How Great Thou Art' from the 'Elvis In Concert' album, seated at the piano, he pulls off a career highlight performance. On that track, his singing is so powerful and intense, it sounds like he's summoning the almighty himself into his presence.

In moments like that, when you see the video, the look on his face is saying, 'I'm still here, underneath all this. I still can be Elvis.' - Being on stage was virtually the only real pleasure he had towards the end. 'Screaming in the dying of the light', to coin a phrase.

While at times uncomfortable listening (last 2 years in the main), imo Elvis' '70s work in general is definitely among his best.

Gush over.

minneapolisgenius said:

possibly. but it could have been equally possible that it had died as the fad that it was at the time become a footnote in the annals of the history of popular music, instead of overtaking almost every aspect of it and the American (and world) culture.

I'd pick Frank over Elvis any day...

This is the first thread I can remember involving Elvis that basically stayed on the topic of his artistic merits/lack thereof.

My vote goes for Frank. However, I respect Elvis a lot.

To me though, Frank is a lot more hip and just "smooth." Even when he was older, he was still, "Frank." Even as an older man, he could still be the smoothest guy alive. Even the young kids would probably walk away from one of his shows, at an older age, and be impressed, by his talent and general attitude.

Did anyone catch one of Phil Hartman's SNL performances playing Frank? I think he had it down. I loved it. It just made me respect Frank more, for being such a bold guy.

I'm actually in the middle of Taraborrelli's biography of Frank. It is really interesting and paints Frank to be quite the fascinating person. (If you guys who read the MJ bio, and thought Michael seemed interesting, Frank is just as interesting a subject to read up on.)

On a related note, Frank Sinatra Jr. (Frank's Son) just released a new album last year, paying tribute to his Dad's style/era of music, and it is errie how much he sounds like his Dad. (And looks like him.)

In short, Frank gets my vote, but I still have lots of respect for Elvis.

JasonStar said:

I've read the Taraborrelli book and it's good, but the ones I recommend without reservation are:

Rat Pack Confidential - Shawn Levy
Sinatra - The Life - Anthony Summers
My Way - Kitty Kelly (no, really)
Mr S - George Jacobs
Dino - Nick Tosches

The above will give you a fairly rounded portrait of what the man was like.

Unfortunately, they skim over the music and give precious insight as to how those remarkable albums were made. For that you should read:

Sinatra! The Song is You: A Singer's Art - Will Friedwald
Sessions With Sinatra - Charles L Granata