missfee said:

I prefer Bilal to Vant Hunt as well . Having said that it's still a damn pity that Van Hunt is dropped by EMI .

missfee said:

Meh. I never could get behind Bilal. He's always struck me as the love child of Maxwell and Rahsaan Patterson who was dropped on his head too many times.

AlexdeParis said:

I prefer Bilal to both Maxwell and Rashaan Patterson

stopHATING said:

Let's be real. Your perspective is your perspective. But it's really not truth or real. It's just a interpetation of what you think the truth is. But the more you preach the truth it becomes silly and overtly righteous. The truth just IS and Im sorry to say but Van did the right thing in allowing his work to channel through him and follow through with his vision. Now whether you thought it was credible or original, all of that falls to the wayside,"DOGG"

And with that, you really are mistaken on this one. Because only Van can decide what's best for him like only you can decide what's best for you. He didn't shoot himself in the foot he follow through for better or worse. We can all all bea "Should/could" man, but in the end it all comes back to the decision of "1" in the end,DOGG.

Alot of us want to "Rubin" the scene. But it's easier said than done even when you think you have the "lay" of the landscape.

stopHATING said:

Everyone "Channels" somebody now whether you pick up on it or not, that's on you. Also, most of our public opinion on "LEGENDS" is already tainted with biased viewpoints. Everyone "Channels" something. Now whether this agrees with your ears is another case entirely. You refuse to make excuses? It just doesn't equal "legendary" to you. And no matter how many times you repeat these phrases it's not going to make a damn difference. You just didn't feel his project THAT much just like certain people aren't going to be receptive to J.B. in the coming years.

But it doesn't make you the "prophet" (C) Jeru on what legendary and innovative music is, far from that.

namepeace said:

This is inaccurate because Prince always had to contend with the hit pop monster. He was just fortunate WB would recoup his costs. The legends were always around it was just the definition. And if you look at the sales in the years you will see how "insane" alot of these artists.

I can look at 4 significant time periods.

Just because Disco was dead doesn't mean music sales weren't making a killing. That's just hindsight for those who want to "define" glory days. But it's a myth and just corporate greed that wanted to drive the charts to those unprecendented levels for their time.

1. Prince had to take on the machine when he started. He needed at least a single.
Otherwise WB would have shelved his project

2. Disco Fusion was still instilled in pop music and you can inherently hear it in Prince's early work. ANd he had to do it like so many recording artists if he was going to roll with a mainstream vehicle. Disco never died and it haunts the music landscape to this day. It plays in the shadow like so many musical entities.



3. When New wave occurred Prince instantly had to contend with this and the role that drum machines provided in dance music. Otherwise he would have been sunk in 82. Without "1999" and "Little Red Corvette" P.R. would have never happened. The hit machine was at his heels.

4. 84 was a pivotal time for music sales. (See alot of industry books that demonstrate this) If Prince didn't have that monster record he would have been relegated to WB's neglected graveyard.


One more thing, Diamonds and Pearls was more crucial than people realized. They would have taken Paisley Park lock stock and barrel if that wasn't a smash album. Best believe that everyone answers to someone playing High Stakes poker in this game at every turn in their life.



The illusion is that Prince never had to take on the hit pop monsters. But he did and got farther than most with the WB mafia in hand. But they cut him so many breaks because they could gamble in those days and had more time to spend on cultivating acts.



And as far as Van doing another single? Self Contained artists like Van are tax write offs for a major label outfit. It didn't matter what single he had. They didn't bring the "Chips" to the casino. It was ill fated from the start.

Anyone who thinks they could have made Van a monster hit or anyone, you would get trampled and stomped WITHOUT the "Yentikoff/Morris/Clive/Bronfmann/Lyor Cohen/ muscle behind you. Those days bringing it to a D.J. with a envelope of money are long gone.

It's much more complex than that. Artists need to cheat to win and that goes for pretty much whoever wants excessive success.

Serious said:

After thinking about it some more, I realized I actually like a few of Bilal's guest appearances. Maybe I should give his first album another shot...

Of course, he'll never be as good as Van to me.

I can't say that I'm totally surprised. While I enjoyed On the Jungle Floor, it definitely seemed like something was "off" with this project to begin with. His tour dates, for instance, being canceled were a surefire sign that something wasn't right at the label. And from the stuff I saw, he didn't seem to have alot of spark in his stage presence, so that may have been a turn off for some.

It's a shame, considering that labels have to look at marketability instead of talent that's waiting to cultivate over time.

Trickology said:

Off-Topic:

Diamonds & Pearls was also a very important album because it was Prince's very last chance to get back some of his black audience members that he was losing since Around A World In A Day through Lovesexy.

Trickology, I think you start your reasoned response off on the wrong foot because "hit-pop," as I used it, was a derogatory term for HIP-HOP.

namepeace said:

Yeah he did. Trick-ass-ology

Trickology said:

Damn, what dat Van Hunt "Semen" like, DOGG ?

Trickology said:

They were around insomuch as Prince is "around" now. Well-loved, well-supported, but not the preponderant power. The prime example is Stevie, whose era of dominance was waning as Prince was coming on the scene.



Wellll . . again, your point is more applicable to when Prince was first arriving on the scene in the late 70's. You might be right there, but Trickology, I'm really talking about when Prince "hit his lick": From '82-'84. Prince began his career at just the right time, which contributed largely to his peak. Of course other artists were selling. Bruce, MJ, Madonna, Fleetwood Mac, Men At Work, I could go on and on. But really only MJ, to my knowledge, was selling more records than Prince during that period of time. It is a testament to Prince that he was among the elite record sellers in a period of pretty heavy sales volume across the board.

But it still misses the point which I'll clarify further. Prince never had to begin his career in the midst of an era of sustained hip-hop dominance. Disco was waning, icons were dying or getting older (forgot to mention Marvin Gaye's untimely death), and other hot styles like punk and new wave were being cleaned up for the masses.




Read my original post, where I make the key distinction between Prince and Van. Prince was savvier at the game. In any event, Prince's early charting history was significantly better than Van's, but he didn't knock it out of the park with his first 2 efforts. Now, imagine if WB dropped Prince right after Prince becuase he didn't thug it out and didn't have Kanye on his remix.
That's the challenge I see Van having that Prince really didn't.



Although quite true, this doesn't change the original point. Prince was doing the disco/EWF/Stevie thing when he started out, but again, we're talking apples and oranges. Pop music bent to disco, as it now does to hip-hop, but we're talking different aesthetics altogether. Prince's look, sound, and style incorporated much of the prevailing look and styles of the late 60's and 70's. Could that work today, where you have to thug it out or sing over a crunked-out hip-hop beat to get on the radio if you're a black artist? That's my point.




Again, true, but beside the point I made. Prince's talent, as I've said many times before, was incorporating different styles and trends into his music and producing his own unique sound. This is why he was able to step into a breach and sell a lot of records. But these days, black musicians, no matter WHAT they play, or how unique their sound, are pushed aside in favor of rappers.




But he did, didn't he? Why? Because he was allowed time to hone his sound, which was familiar and attractive enough to a large segment of the pop and soul audiences (people were comparing him to Hendrix, Stevie, Sly, and New Wavers at the same time). Could he have had the same success with audiences who grew up with Tupac and Biggie and adore the Jay-Z's, Kanyes, T.I.'s of the world? Hell, in the years immediately after Purple Rain you began to see hip-hop draining away audiences that would have otherwise been Prince's, MJ's, and other musicians' as well.



Again, a valid point that has nothing to do with mine. But you inadertently reminded me of what was going on in that D&P era. Prince was trying to incorporate the prevailing sounds of the day into his own music. Which was . . . mmm-hmm. Rap music. As a result, T.C. Ellis and Tony M. were his answers to Ice Cube and Public Enemy. Now imagine if he started his career around that time, without the string of critically acclaimed hits and platinum discs. Where would he have gotten? That's the point.




See my prior post. I think you misinterpreted my usage of "hit-pop." I regret the confusion, but there is no illusion, Trickology. You're peeling apples when I was squeezing oranges. But I digress.




And why do you think that is? I'll tell you what I think. The lack of a hip-hop sound or feel to his work made it less palatable for his label to market.




That, while true, had nothing to do with my post. By the way, how did Bronfmann and Cohen make names for themselves? Death Row and Def Jam, respectively.



You're just remixing my single right now. I said . . .



About all of your points have merit, but I don't think they address mine


[Edited 12/29/06 13:56pm]

To drop him is so ridiculous for EMI.

"On The Jungle Floor" is definately the best album of 2006 in my book.

Seems record companies really only go for the quick and easy buck these days.

Then again, if Van Hunt is clever he will use myspace etc to build a membership-based online distribution thing just like Prince did with npgmc.com

He already has enough of a fanbase to go there.

it never fails, Hip Hop will come up in every topic


Someone said something to the effect that Prince's second album was commercial and VH should have done the same. That may be so but Prince did things to separate himself from being typecast as just another R&B Soul artist on his second album as well. For example the songs Bambi and Why You Wannna Treat ME So Bad, not to mention Prince's wild style of dress and most of his live shows at the time were more rock oriented.

Van took similar risk. The difference is Prince was allowed to take risk like following up his second album with Dirty Mind. VH was being told that he was not doing the kind of music that black people want to here he spoke about this in his myspace blogs. Songs like "At The End Of A Slow Dance" Ride Ride Ride" didn’t go over well with the label. Prince was allowed to grow as an artist and VH was not. This is a whole different day and age and it’s impossible to compare the two. VH can’t just follow Prince's career as the blueprint. Its just not that simple.

Meloh9 said:

Even hip-hop heads like me say it's sad but true. It dominates black music, so much so that it undermines diversity on the black music scene. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing if much of it weren't garbage.




Much of what you say is true. But Check Prince's early vids. What he was wearing wasn't outrageous per se, as he'd have fit in with EWF and Parliament or even Jimi or Sly. As for the Dirty Mind-Controversy era, hell, Bowie, The New York Dolls, and Iggy Pop were doing and wearing similar things on stage. It was just that the Kid could rock out with the best of the rock artists and funk with the best of the funksters. And was straight dirty in the process.



True again. Prince also lost fans in the black community -- before AND after Purple Rain -- for his increasingly eclectic funk-rock sound. And I agree with that because the landscape is completely different for Van than it was for Prince, and different for Prince than it was for Sly and Curtis and Stevie, and so on.
[Edited 12/29/06 15:13pm]

Maybe this is the best thing for him. No matter what, Im gonna support his work. He has proven to me that he is 'bout it. One monkey dont stop no show! Play on, playa!

Fauxie said:

Not surprised..but this is sad sad sad

Unbelievable.

dreamfactory313 said:

This is the same corporation that gave Mariah $28 million NOT to sing and managed to underpromote Janet Jackson's career to the point of near-extinction. So YES, I am GLAD he has left (along with Janet & Mariah) since he's better off without EMI. In fact any artist is.

namepeace said:

truth be told around the time of Prince's second album there was a growing desire for the kind of black rock thing that Prince was doing, people in the black community wanted to hear something different at the time. also Prince was sporting some pretty crazy stuff around that time before dirty mind, you have to look outside just the videos and American Bandstand.

Meloh9 said:

As I said before, Prince filled a void by being a talented cat in the right place at the right time. But once he hit his apex, and became increasingly eclectic -- to some, ATWIAD and Parade were out-the-frame in a different way than Dirty Mind or Controversy -- And undoubtedly Prince was doing and wearing some outrageous stuff, my point was that he was following some cats that also dressed and behaved pretty outrageously on stage.

No one had done it quite like him, though. That's why he's my all-time favorite. And he set the bar pretty high, as Van and others are finding out. If you're a brother who can play a few notes, you've gotta be Princely (sales and otherwise) to get love from your label. Otherwise, you're always under the gun.
[Edited 12/30/06 15:11pm]

Hunt is an amzing talent no doubt but he isn't comercial materiial to be on a comercial Lable,
he belongs on an indie lable, and i wouldnt mind if he went that route,
But when it comes to comercial success, you have to ask one question.
How long do u have to sell out before you sell your soul?
People compare van hunt to prince, one problem is Prince was a complicated musician, he can make his own independent works, and make pop songs that would become hits. it was only when he started aging he wanted more creative control etc... make his "own' music
theres certain lines u have to step on to become a popular, yet true Artist.
The best musicians always go unnoticed, and the great musicians know when and where to heed to the public demands and then throw them something original...

Sometimes the only way to original success, is through the pop throughway...
and at the end of that road you can either come out a joke...
Or a legend...

and Van certainly has the capabilities of doing so...
u gotta sell out to be successful...
sad fact...

but all in all i would rather him being unsuccessful then successful, cause success changes an artist, and it take s astrong wiill to go through that mess unchanged
so i wouldnt mind if he goes indie, and does what he wants

this sucks van got talent.....

ABeautifulOne said:

You're not mistaken. Such is the backing VH is receiving the decision has effectively been made already.

...
[Edited 12/31/06 0:43am]

namepeace said:

Excellent points. That's pretty much what I would have said. Although, I do believe that Prince was given a green light by WB because he just happened to meet the requirements of what WB was trying to do at the time. Timing is everything, really.

As to the point made about Van not carrying himself, I disagree. I think that no matter how many times its said, it will never sink in with people. R&B=slow music to the average person in the 21st century. THIS IS DELIBERATE. Its a way labels control artists. Artist control is essential to label profits (so they think). Van is better on stage than EVERY rapper out that dropped when he did and after. Van's doing his part. Its the label that's shitting on him. Its punishment for not pulling a "Chris Brown" as is stated in the R&B handbook. There is more mid-tempo mind fluff on the market than ever before and there is no way in hell anyone can dig up enough to argue that it is coincidence. They are squeezing harder than ever because their profits are low; that is mostly due to their arrogance in being unyielding in their business practices. They can't admit that what they are doing isn't working. The business is doomed to collapse. They don't want to relinquish control to artists again like in the 80s because they don't want to be at their mercy. They simply underexpose an artist like Van Hunt just enough to screw him over but not enough to violate any contractual agreements. Its by-the-book 24/7 for them. The industry sucks because non-musical people with degrees in business run it. The music industry is not meant to be fully corporate like it is because art is subjective and it takes artistic foresight to make it successful. Since they started solely relying on marketing techniques to sell artists, sales have been crappy and they will continue to be. People don't value music anymore because much of it is not worth caring about. People don't treat Ferraris the same way they do Pintos. Same is true for music.

BlaqueKnight said:

Leave it to a professional musician to make it plain.

VoicesCarry said:

Exactly. When the Sex Pistols were dropped, they didn't get mad, they got even by writing the song "EMI". Maybe Van could do something similar.

except the sex pistols were a put-together boy band who couldnt play a lick and van hunt actually has major talent.

a fucking shame.

nothing is doing that great on the charts anyway, they should give him a break, but hey that's buisness
[Edited 1/16/07 11:14am]