whoever said michael's legacy is justin timberlake and usher is really sad, how can that be his legacy? just because you see the influence, thats not what i'm talking about..when micheal is gone what are people gonna remember him for? and stop bringing up prince in this thread, michael's only goal for the last 20 something years has been to top the success of thriller, prince hardly play the songs from purple rain let alone constantly try to top the sales.when michael was with his brothers, and even his solo records before thriller blew up you can hear the passion in his music, he made some of the best r&b/pop music in history.i'd rather hear his fans appreciate that instead of constantly talking about how many records he sold...there are alot of people that really suck but have sold a shit load of records.

lowkey said:

sadly, i think it is going to be his freaky nature/image that's going to be remembered above all else.

tonyat said:

Agree. I mean I rarely ever bring Prince into the equation when I am discussing Michael, infact I rarely participart in discussions regarding Prince, let alone defend him. And if I have, I like Skycute to show me where I have done that. But, that's the thing about hard-core Michael fans they make such sweeping generalisations about people who don't see Michael through the rose-tinted glasses the way they do.

whatsgoingon said:

Homerun.....

skyecute said:

I think it's the newer Prince fans that are worried about his album sales....Most of the older fans just want to see him win on the concert trail because they understand that veteran artists like Prince are less likely to be embraced by the Britney Spears generation...

As for why MJ catches criticism when it comes to his album sales and Prince doesn't, the answer is quite simple...MJ has taken on the title of The King Of Pop...Such a gaudy title suggest that MJ should only be measured by record sales and not the quality or artistic value of his musical work....Prince meanwhile, contradictions and asshole nature and all, is seen as a musicians' musician, a throwback artist who just so happened to have sold a lot of albums...So critics look at the man in a more serious light like say Bruce Springsteen...There are a lot of things that are overblown with MJ in terms of criticism (Like the British critics going at the man for his performance; this seemed a bit overkill...)...But as far as his criticism in regards to album sales, MJ digged that hole a long time ago...

KidOmega said:

yeah, I was thinking the same thing
Prince creeps his purple ass into like 90% of the threads posted round here. Hmmm...wonder why?

lowkey said:

I agree.Don't get me wrong,I think it's amazing that 'Thriller' became the biggest-selling album of all time.It's a superb album and it deserves all the success that came it's way.However,Michael became a prisoner of that album's success,constantly trying to out-do himself.Instead of growing and evolving as an artist,he (and many of his fans) became obsessed with record sales.Even now,he's in the studio with Will.i.am,no doubt trying to make the ultimate "comeback" album.It gets tiresome after awhile.

SoulAlive said:

Many of his fans would say he has evolved. But then again it depends what you mean by evolve. Does it mean to change genre and experiment more wth different sounds, which he has done over the years. Or does it mean to become more sophsticated in his music I personally don't think he has become more sophsticated with his music. Infact if you listen to the words of "Bad" and "Black and White" they sound downright childish.

whatsgoingon said:

Black and White has a really clever opening verse, it sounds like a simple track about race relations, but if you listen it also deals with interracial relationships. Rearranged, it would be a great 50's/early 60's track.

I took my baby/On a saturday bang/Boy is that girl with you/Yes were one and the same/Now I believe in miracles/And a miracle/Has happened tonight/

With a few lines he's created a pretty charged scenario.
[Edited 11/23/06 13:13pm]

SoulAlive said:

See, this is where you have fallen for MEDIA hype, not any hype by Michael Jackson. Michael has NEVER said anything about outdoing Thriller's success. In fact, he says that he knows that he can never outdo Thriller and therefore doesn't worry about it. Every single album that Michael releases, the MEDIA compares it to Thriller, not Michael. If it doesn't sell 50 million copies, the MEDIA calls it a flop. I remember talking to a radio DJ during the Dangerous era and they called Dangerous a flop(it sold over 8 million in US and over 25 million worldwide) because it didn't sell what Thriller did. Again, it is not Michael who is trying to outdo himself after Thriller, it is the media. No other artist is put to the double standards that Michael is, and anyone who has followed the man and his music knows this. Btw, when is working with a producer, such as Will.i.am trying to make the "ultimate comeback"? Michael has ALWAYS worked with various producers and everytime the media and some in the public say he is trying to make a COMEBACK. Why is it that Michael has to make a comeback with EVERY release? You know what gets tiring is people who don't know what they are talking about and attributing things to Michael that he didn't say. Is it any wonder that MJ fans are so defensive. The things that people believe and say(without any proof) is just mind boggling. All you have to do is to look at what happened at the WMA. The media just MADE UP rumor that Michael was booed off the stage and news outlets didn't even bother to check if the rumor was true, they just went with it. All they had to do was look at the footage and see that his reception was overwhelmingly positive. All they had to do was to look at the footage and see that Michael didn't stumble or mess-up on stage, even when the mic went out. He was professional and calm while interacting the fans.The media hypes things and then manipulate the truth. All MJ fans want is fairness and balance, just as any fan of other artists should want. I don't think that is asking too much.

whatsgoingon said:

I brought Prince into the discussion because this is a Prince board and he is good to compare the difference in the way that the media treats him as compared to Michael when it comes to album sales. I could just as easily used Madonna, Bruce, Mick, Paul or any other artist. I am just pointing out how the media treats every MJ album as a comeback and compares the sales of every MJ album to Thriller. They don't do that with Prince, or any other artist for that matter. However, I have noticed that the newer Prince fans are really worried about sales as related to Prince. I never knew that until I came to this forum. Of course, those same people who were stomping and hollering because 3121 didn't sell are now pretending that they are not concerned over his sales.It is the same with Michael's fans. His newer fans go ballistic if one of his albums doesn't sell as much as Thriller. We "old school" fans don't care. We are just glad to hear new music from the man. Of course, we want his albums to sell, any fan of any artist does; but, "old school" MJ fans(like me) are not going to stop being his fan, stop supporting him or stop respecting him just because an album did not have Thriller sales. Therefore, I don't like the generalizations(just as you don't) when you claim that all MJ fans are only concerned with his album sales. That is not true.

skyecute said:

He himself before Bad came out wanted Bad to sell at least 80mil and Dangerous to sell at least 100mil,these are well know facts, so please stop trying to make everything about the media.

I have been following Michael since the 70s and although I will say the Media hasn't been really kind to him, he himself continuously falls into their trap with his own behaviour.

He and his Manager planted some really, silly stories about himself back in the 80s, something that his mother admitted. He then went from black to white before our very eyes and it wasn't until he was interviewed by Oprah in 93 that he said he had "Vitiligo", how do you expect people to believe that, when practically everything was changing about him before our eyes and for years he says nothing, of course many people are going to believe he has issues with his black-self. Did you think saying "Vitiligo" would clear everything up just like that. The media slaughter of him could have been minimize if Michael had more effected PR and he watched his own increaingly, bizarre behaviour. He didn't and he has become a ridicule that he is today.

What is keeping Michael still relevant to a certain extent is his early years, from 69 to the mid 80s and thankfully many of those clips are on YOUTUBE, for all those who can't remember Michael any other way than the pitiful sight he has become today.

You come across as if you belong to one of those Michael Jackson cults-that call themselves fansites, where you have to defend everything Michael does even when it's so obvious he is the one with problem. Putting the whole blame onto the media probably helps you avoid the truth about your idol.

his legacy is going to be based on his pedophelia

Having sold over 750 million records is not a bad leagcy to have.

sosgemini said:

dreamfactory313 said:

Wow I didn't know that he sold that much!!

I'm a fan, and I don't really agree that other fans are always talking about his sales. I do totally agree with the one person who said though, that his album sales are the only one thing that no one can argue against.

The only reason why fans seem to be obsessed with buying his albums, is because they want to show the world that Michael is not a has-been. No one is trying to help him sell another 30million copies or whatever, all we want to do is support him and at least try and get him up in some charts, just to show everyone that he is still supported.

I never talk about his album sales, they are not important to me. But I agree, that it's a shame that because he will NEVER match Thriller's sales, that he will get slaughtered with every new album he brings out. He has set himself SUCH a difficult task, that he is never going to win.

whatsgoingon said:

There has never been an interview or quote of Michael saying that he wanted to sell 100 million copies of Thriller. There were media quotes that CLAIMED that he said this. There were also so-called "sources" that told this to tabloids. I have also followed Michael since the Jackson 5 days and am very familiar with the media hype that surronds him.
I always find it ironic and hypocritical that people like you are the first ones to criticize when people don't agree with your rhetoric. I am very independent and strong-willed. I don't depend on fansites or anyone else in order to express my opinion. I have always been willing to stand alone in my beliefs and don't give a damn who likes what I say or not. I don't subscribe to mob-mentality. I don't subscribe to worrying about what people think of my opinions. I am the type of person who is not gullible enough to believe what is printed in the media withot investigating and researching EVERYTHING that they say. I have been a fan of Michael Jackson long enough to decipheer the bullshit from the facts. If anyone ever doubted how the media manipulates, lies and fabricates things about MJ, all one has to do is look at the last few days concerning the WMA. This was flat-out blatant LIES and media manipulation. It is obvious that this man was not booed off the stage. It was obvious that his appearance was not a "comeback" performance. It was obvious that the reception that he received from the audience was overwhelmingly positive. It was obvious that he was confident and happy with his reception. Yet, the media intentionally misrepresented everything about him that night. There have been many people who were actually a part of he WMA's who have reputed whatthe media said. There are dozens and dozens of video footage that directly tells people that the media was lying. Yet, you still have people who have the audacity to wonder why a MJ fan would be defensive about all of the bullshit that the media perpetuates. PLEASE, tell that to someone who doesn't know any better.It is really irksome and hypocrital for fans of other artists to try and tell a MJ fan what to do; especially, when you are also defending your favortie artist. The fact that MJ fans do it more often is because we are inundated with the crap on an almost daily basis.I am one of those people who will speak up about ANYTHING that I feel is unfair or unjust. Feel free to disagree with me anytime, and I will feel free to do the same with you.

skyecute said:

You have every right to stick up for Michael, but where myself and other disagree with you and your irk is your constance blaming EVERYTHING on the media, when it is obvious that on many occassions Michael digs his own grave.

And you assume that being a fan of Michael means you have to defend him at all costs all the time; to me there are Hard-core fans who is so wrap up in MJ that they can't see his own faults and then there are the fans who appreciate him as an artist, but at the same time can acknowledge that Michael has major issues, which has very little to do with the media...you obviously belong to the former.

well the reality is that when michael goes to the toilet to have a shit,

that shit that he does is worth more than most peoples entire careers

you can bet your bottom dollar than someone is going to scoop that shit and keep it as a souvenier

but even michaels shit turns to gold

skyecute said:

It has been reported by several people close to MJ that when he was recording the 'Bad' album,he wrote the words 80 MILLION COPIES on a piece of paper,which he taped to his mirror.Each day,he would see it and it was supposed to "inspire" him to work hard at his goal.His ultimate goal was to sell twice as many copies of 'Thriller',which at the time,had sold around 40 million copies worldwide.There is no denying that he is constantly trying to out-do his past success.Why do you think he does that silly "King of Pop" nonsense? He's obsessed with record sales and commercial success.That's all that matters to him.

tonyat said:

Yeah. I think I read that on wikipedia.com