Isel said:

Janet wasn't very polished as a performer until well into the Control cd which would be the third try out. Janet did lip sync on the grammys, etc, etc.

I'm not harsh on the limited talented folks that are out. I think we had our share and they were allowed to grow BUT janet is still doing the same thing. I've stopped being interested after Velvet Rope.

I think Ciara is just fun to watch. Its not that she's some great talent but she is aleast tryyyyying to do something.

Rhondab said:

Well, I really became a Jan-fan during the Control era. But I'm talking in terms of dance technique as far as polish in a way but then again also as a performer. Janet just seems to have a naturally more refined carriage and polished technique--although I don't think she has had much formal training. Sometimes those types of nuances just can't be taught.

That said, I now understand what people are talking about when they say "fresh" choreography though. At first, I didn't really understand because I thought Gil was creating something "fresh" in a way because it wasn't the same as far as some specific elements that I've seen in videos. His choreography doesn't include a lot of booting shaking or simple isolations. It's much more stylized than what I've seen. His work is really more intricate and complex as far as dance elements except I think he might rely too heavily on the club dance scene.

But I really think it's more about overall presentation. It's like I said that Ciara's video was more sophisticated in concept even though IMO Ciara might not be as sophisticated of a performer. The elements in the video make her look more sophisticated. The elements might not be as intricate, but they are effective. I tell ya.. Tina (and Barry) know how to make artists look good. That's what a choreographer is supposed to do. IMO, Gil is trying to come-up with this great choreography while forgetting about making Janet look good--not that Janet can't perform his work. It's the overall context that looks a bit tired--and for the last couple of videos Janet is getting lost because Gil is making it more about the choreography--and of course overstated sexuality--when a more subtle approach would definitely be more artistic.

I have to agree with you all about Ciara's video. I really love it. And I love the song because it's so Prince-like.

I really think that Janet should consider working with people who are more "professionally" detached. I wouldn't say that Tina is necessarily "professionally detached," but Barry is. And it really gets my knickers in a twist that all of these artists are working with big-name, experienced choreographers whom Janet has launched. I really think Janet could benefit from their experience now if she would work with a couple.

I really like Ciara as a video artist even though she really wasn't that great as a live performer on SYTYCD. She was ok, but not great. Then again, it may have been the context of that particular show because all of the remaining dancers were so talented. Plus the choreography on that show was great. It was a dance show.

Please. When Janet first came out not only was she not polished she was barely slightly buffered. Her feet were planted to the ground and she did nothing but shimmy. When she 'broke loose' it was to jump straight up and down. She had no real charisma or stage presence and she lip synched. When Control just dropped she was touring doing small shows and I saw her live and it was nothing special. The hype was that she had new music and she was Michael Jackson's sister who at the time was seen as the second-coming.

Everything about Janet seems choreographed. When she doesn't have direction she just walks around the stage, stops, points with an angry face and continues walking around the stage.

Ciara is not great. Her voice is about 2-3 notches stronger than Janet's but it does sound like it can improve with time. Like Aaliyah's it's quite pleasant. I think most people are noticing that Ciara might be the one to stick out of the crowd. She may be gone tomorrow but it looks like she's trying to stick around for awhile.

JackieBlue said:

Uh.. I don't know if I agree with you there. I've seen clips of Janet as a child performing with her brothers. She always had this commanding stage presence. And then when she appeared on Fame, Janet held her own with a number of professional dancers. Debbie Allen choreographed that show. So I don't think that all Janet could do was shimmy. Janet couldn't get-away with being slightly buffered, tree stump. lol No... from my observation, Janet has always had this natural presence.

Now I do agree that she seems to rely upon choreographers quite a bit and "image makers" as far as an music artist. Heck, she relied upon Jam and Lewis to make her a star. But Janet started in the business so very young, that she always has had this polish and presence. Also I don't think it's fair to Janet to say that she doesn't have a natural ability because that's not been my observation at all. A lot of other more traditiaonally "trained" artists look more contrived than Janet.

And as far as Ciara, how do you know that she DOESN'T rely on choreographers?

JackieBlue said:

agreed. I think some need to go back and look at the "what have you done for me lately" video and ANY performance pre Control.

Rhondab said:

I already responded to this. I went back to a time before Janet even started in the music business.


I still stand by what I say: Ciara lacks the natural polish and presence of a Janet Jackson at a same point in her career and maybe even before. Isn't Ciara now in her 20's? I still don't think as a performer, Ciara has the same level of sophistication as Janet did at the same age.

Isel said:

I wasn’t talking about when Janet was a kid. Her Mae West imitation alone said something about her future. I’m talking about when she was performing music from her albums. She certainly didn’t have the stuff that she has now or even when she did the AMAs memorable Control number.

It just wasn’t there to me and being a die-hard Janet fan, I wouldn’t lie about that. Michael Jackson’s sister was growing up and had a new song out that was HOT. I don’t even think the video had dropped yet. She had no back up dancers. The only hint of what was to come was she was wearing black.

But I never said anything about Ciara not using choreographers.

I don’t want this to be a Janet vs. Ciara thing.

I don’t pay most of these young girls any mind. Every now and then one or two will catch my attention and it’s usually well after they’ve been out for awhile. Aaliyah. Brandy. Jojo is the latest. That’s about it. Ciara is beginning to fly onto the radar but I’m not trying to compare her to Janet nor do I think she’s coming for Janet’s spot. Yet. (5 weeks ago it was Beyonce) I only felt there were some vocal similarities.

Every artist goes through a period of awkward or unpolished talent. Personally I don’t care how Ciara measures up to other performers or who uses choreographers or not and how often and so on and so forth. I don’t know about her live performances and whether she sings live. I’m not vested in her like that. I only wanted to say that Janet didn’t exactly wake up doing those moves. She is now one of the 2 women that all young performers aspire to be like. You know who the other one is.

I wish them both well. I'm done.

JackieBlue said:

Ciara isn't just starting-out. How old was Janet during the "Control" era? Isn't Ciara at the same age Janet was during the "Control" era?

As far as pre-music-video-artist Janet, what I'm talking about transcends genres. It's like a number of dancers transition well into acting because they have this presence or carriage--or command of the stage. It's like they have this awareness. I just think Janet has always had that. A lot of people pay tons of money to acquire "it," but "it" is unattainable for some.

Janet may have gone through a transition process--maybe even some awkwardness, but she has always had that presence. From my observation, Ciara has developed that presence and is continuing to develop it. Janet just possessed it.

And didn't you say that "Everything Janet does seems to be choreographed,"? Didn't you say that "When she doesn't have direction..." she's a bit lost? I guess I inferred that you meant Janet has to rely upon choreographers.

So how do you know that everything Ciara does isn't choreographed? Maybe without choreographers, Ciara would appear equally lost.

Oh no. I don't want this to become a Ciara v Janet thing either. It's just that I noticed a lot of people who criticize Janet are Ciara fans. For me, it's like they are both the same--even though it's true that Janet has appeared to have lost her way for the moment or lost something that was originally appealing.
[Edited 10/27/06 6:10am]

Isel said:

Janet polished? PLEASE!!! The only reason why Janet got noticed was due to her brothers.....The only reason why she has lasted this long is due to there being really nothing else to listen to and this fan base that she still has. She is has realized that this is more than just a show, it is a business. This is why she got Nelly to appear in that god awful song and video. Janet needs to take notes.....These youngsters are going to leave her in the dust. Seems to me that se and Michael are having the same problem....Trying to find somewhere to fit in...only with Michael, we notice it more with him due to his status. With Janet, we don't we tend to exuse her. Hell, if she were as polished as you say, then she would have no trouble in finding that sound that got her there in the first place. She would be able to take the lemons that she is getting and make lemonade.

JackieBlue said:

Yep, this is sooooo true.


We definitely know she's not a natural, you can see her attempt at "freestyle dance" on that VR concert. Even Janet has admitted herself that she doesn't think she can dance otherwise, that's why she wouldn't dance at clubs & would watch everyone else instead. I just don't think Janet is very talented at all. Her best choreography has always been created by other people, her best songs were created by Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, her most creative ideas were brainchilds of her ex-husband, her best video was an idea taken from Michael, etc. She's paved the way for all the no-talent whisper thin dancing clones we have in the market today. I think its miraculous she's been able to ride the waves for as long as she has with hardly any talent. Even 15yr. old JoJo is arguably more talented than her, there's no doubt she's vocally better & to me...that's pretty fucking laughable.

Isel said:

Well..you're comparing a Ciara who is just releasing her second cd to a Janet that didn't seem polished well into her third almost fourth cd. You are busy comparing age which irrelevant when you should be comparing experience at the same age. Janet had more entertainment experience at the same age.

Lastly, whatever Ciara is or isn't doing has nothing to do with the fact that Janet has NO creative voice NOW and that she is seamingly getting schooled by someone you deem isn't polished.

Damn.....eye candy is supposed 2 be calorie free but I think I just gained a pound watching that video. The woman CLEARLY needs a man with experience.

It's funny, she looks just like my personal attorney.

Rhondab said:

But Janet was more polished performer and had presence younger age outside of the the music-video genre. From my observation, Janet as a child had raw talent, stage presence and a certain amount of sophistication. I'm not necessarily attributing it all to age. Then again, age is a factor sometimes in being able to deliver a mature performance. I wonder if Ciara would have been as successful a child star as Janet was--because Janet was successful BEFORE she transitioned into music. Moreover, since she wasn't heading in that direction originally, Janet might have felt a bit awkward, and it showed. Plus, Ciara has Janet as a role model as far as the music-video genre. Ciara is working with the same people or some of the same people who "created" Janet, but the difference is these people have even more experience in the genre. Ciara is not "inventing the wheel." The genre has been established for decades. Ciara and others have benefitted from that influence.

In addition, I'm not sure what you mean about Janet "getting schooled" except maybe Janet should return to basics at one point. Sometimes adults can learn from children, relatively speaking, in a variety of professional and personal situations. So that wouldn't surprise so much. Haven't you ever learned a little somethin' somethin' from someone who is just starting-out--even maybe if that young person is just inadvertantly and figuratively holding-up a mirror--reminding you of what you once were?

Finally, I have to disagree with you about Janet lacking talent. Rhondab, I wasn't there. I wasn't in on the creative process and really can't say for certain whose creative voice was the loudest in Janet's career. But for sure as an entertainer, Janet is talented because if she weren't, Janet would not have been as successful as she has been--and would not have lasted as long as she has. Her success might very well have to do with the fact that she has surrounded herself with very creative people. (BTW, those very same people made careers for themselves BECAUSE of their affliation with Janet.) I don't know exactly who had CREATIVE VISION, and I'm not so sure CREATIVE VISION wasn't something that just evolved from everyone--including Janet herself. But I do know that JANET is the front-man of the band, so to speak. She is the one who is out there. So I can't discredit her... and won't. So as much responsibility Janet has for her current failures in some people's eyes, then I'm going to credit her with responsibility for her successes as well. It's her name that is out there being praised or maligned.

Unfortunately,... I made the mistake of "making" this into a Ciara v Janet thread, so for that I'll apologize. Back on topic, Ciara is a talented young lady. The video and song are great. Plus at least Ciara is gracious enough to publicly credit Janet and others as being her inspiration. I'll give her that.
[Edited 10/27/06 7:43am]

TommyRoss said:

I feel the same way. Saw the video last night and thought.....same old boring shit that all the other flavours of the month are doing.

Isel said:

Graycap23 said:

If I had a personal attorney that looked like that, I'd be in trouble all the time.

Ciara has said many times before in her interviews that she was a street dancer. Her story is simple enough: they saw her and said "she's hot and can move; she's got potential" and they proceeded to make a star out of her.

BlaqueKnight said:

Who cares ciara can sing better than janet in any stage of Janet's career, point blank Ciara can sing even live she can sing, she doesn't have range thats all

BlaqueKnight said:

lol.....it's a trip. U should see the heads turn when she walks into a court room. It's interesting 2 say the least.

I didn't know she wrote Promise and co-wrote and co-produced Get Up.

KingKrazy said:

Yeah. Right.

JackieBlue said:

She did?
My respect factor for her just went way up.
Mostly because the song is so rad.

I just checked this and I do agree that Ciara's voice isn't the best. BUT...Madonna's Janet, and Aalyahs wasn't the greatest either. I'm very big fans of all the artist though visually...they are/were performers, they entertain us and are/were good at it. There is room for everybody these days. I bought Janet's album and could not believe what I heard...complete and utter garbage! Janet's "20" album is her Glitter along with Madonna "American Life"...I know for sure they will never grace a cd player of mine ever again! LOL I like the video for the visuals, the "Prince" like sound, and the mic trick was hot! I don't like comparing her to Aaliyah though because to me noone was doing choreography like Fatima. Her videos were always differant but had that touch to it. I said a while back that Janet shit was getting weak..too much arms and stiffnes and just too many people. There is some people that need a crowd for affect and then just to see them by themselves is nice too...IF they can dance! Janet best video IMO is the Pleasure Principle I can watch that over and over. That new shit that out now with half nudity in it is just terrible and she looks hard. I want to see her just freestyle without the motherfuckin "KIDS". Well that's my two cents.

kisscamille said:

ur joking right? that mic stand scene alone is the hotness

DAV123 said:

This is exactly what I commented on regarding Janet. There were like a 100 people on stage with Janet on Oprah. Just too many.

Fatima is my other favorite choreographer. Love her style. In my mind Aaliyah will always be in her own lane. But I do see shades of her in Ciara at times but thats not a bad thing to me. If anything it makes me a little nostalgic.

One last off-topic clarification.

I just figured-out one of the reasons for the difference of opinion concerning Ciara and Janet's dance/performance abilities.

If Ciara was originally a street-dancer, then obviously her strength is more urban style of dance. Some people like that style--others don't.

With Janet, her choreography tends to be more hip-POP--urban with a jazz flair or jazz with an urban flair-- than pure street. Plus with Gil, now he includes a lot of "club" dance as well--some of it considered urban, some not. Consequently, compared to Ciara's more urban-street-style dance, Janet's moves appear to me more polished--some might even say stiff where as Ciara's style is a little more smooth.

Janet developed at a time when hip-hop was being integrated into choreography, but still the choreography was more jazz-based. Janet might not be best "free style" dancer according to urban standards, but according to more traditional jazz standards, Janet has a flair for dance. (Even Debbie Allen--choreographer for Fame--said Janet had a natural ability in spite of her lack of formal training.) Of course some jazz dancers don't do well in urban, and then some urban dancers don't do well in jazz. Then there are those dancers who can do everything--including ballet and contemporary. Janet might be the type of dancer who has more of a flair for jazz, hip-POP than for pure urban/street.

Consequently, I guess when I say that Janet is more polished and natural-I'm referring to her ability to dance hip-POP without a lot of formal training. I'm referring to her ability from more of a traditional viewpoint. And just by virtue of the genre "jazz" comes across as more polished where urban is more laid-back. But Janet definitely can dance.. even though she might not be the best free-style dancer to some. It all depends upon what a person considers to be "good" freestyle. (I vaguely remember her performance on Dick Clark.. I don't remember her performing difficult choreography, but she could move well and was sort of representative of dance during that time period.)

As far as my preference in general... I don't have one. I really enjoy Shane Sparks as a choreographer because I like his hard-hitting style of urban. I'm not an expert on urban--my specialties are more jazz and ballet--with some tap thrown in, but I think there are different styles of hip-hop--from coast to coast--one style is smooth; the other more dramatic. Fatima's style seems a bit smoother to me. I also like Marty Kudelka's hip-hop choreography, too. To me,Marty's work is a combination of both a more fluid and dramatic style. For hip-POP choreographers, I guess Tina, Barry, and Brian Friedman would be my favorites. (All of those choreographers are extremely versatile dancers with a lot of traditional, formal training-- more so than Fatima, Marty, and Shane who are more urban specialists as far as dancers.) Another versatile, trained dancer, Gil Duldulao is more of a hip-POP choreographer even though he makes the rounds with Monsters of Hip-Hop. Gil is very creative, but I think his choreography is on the verge of being too frantic--there is just too much in it. Plus...I agree that Janet needs to lose a dancer or two. That's what I mean about Janet being "lost." There is just too much going on choreographically and visually in a lot of her recent dance videos.

In short, whether or not a person can dance, is all relative, but I guess coordination, rhythm.. the FUNDAMENTALS of movement must to present in order to not look like a clod in any genre. Then again, an urban dancer might look like a clod in ballet, where as a ballet dancer might look like a clod in urban. So who is the real dancer? All things considered, I'm drawn to the genre I understand a bit more because I have more of a traditional background, so for that reason, Janet's dancing appeals to me more than Ciara's at this point in time.
[Edited 10/28/06 6:37am]

I've been watching this video frequently, daily.

Maybe its me
but this video looks cheaper than Prince's I wanna Be your lover...

Say what u want about Ciara , she´s okej, but still a copycat..

the clothes,. hair.. iT´S all AALIYAH.....

yes. Ciara can dance.. and sing
BUT STILL she´s not that original Like my girl AALIYAH

GETTING my drift??

myloveis4ever said:

What was so original about aaliyah, and when did aaliyah become this hot legendary act, i can understand Janet status, but when aaliyah was alive she wasn't even in the top three black young rnb queens coming up, Brandy surpassed her by tenfold, and Beyonce was already in her Queen of Destiny Child stage, and Monica was still a hot commidity, and plane crash happens and aaliyah becomes this legend, i am sorry but aaliyah wasn't that hot neither.