Tessa said:

is this is response to my comments on preferable singles or soulalive's comments? i'm confused (and what's new).

starbuck said:

JJ has some DEVOTED fans around here but let's be real ....her last couple of cds were poop and she can't really change her formula because she really doesn't have the pipes....so if her tracks aren't strong and deeply melodic to compensate for her lack of vocal skills....you get fresh poop...whats more pathetic is the fact that she has to show her overphotoshopped A%$ in magazines to try and generate a buzz to sell her Cd...her marginal talent can't cut it anymore....

panther514 said:

OWWWWWwwwwwCCCCCHHHHH!!!!!

panther514 said:

I'm a devoted fan albeit an objective one. I don't like or agree with EVERYTHING she does. In fact, I even preferred Damita Jo over 20 Y.O. because the latter doesn't have enough music to which I personally can relate at this point in time.. But even if I couldn't find one positive thing to say, that doesn't validate or confirm that Janet's last cds were poop or that Janet has no talent. (As far as pipes, some "belt" singers give me a headache. And I wouldn't say that Bob Dylan has the best vocal quality around, and he's still doing the same thing and singing the same way, too. Does that make him poop? Believe it or not, some might think so.) What constitutes poop as far as art is all a matter of taste. I just don't think 20 Y.O. appealed to a wide variety of people or enough people to make it a huge hit. (BTW, a lot of pop music I consider to be poop. I'm not a huge pop music fan, so just because something appeals to a large audience still doesn't mean that I am obligated to think it's art.)

Most certainly, for this recent effort, I do think that Janet's main problem is that she has NOT given people a reason to move-on from her past controversy. So people are critical of Janet for the same reasons that they have always been critical, but Janet isn't ready or willing to change. Due to that inability or maybe conscious choice on Janet's part, even people in the industry(DJS ON-AIR in particular) as well as the general public are dismissing her. But really that says more about them than it does for Janet because at least Janet remained true to what she wanted to do. As a matter of fact, I'm not so sure if the general public with the help of the media ever really moves-on anyway.

Look at the way people are treating Madonna, for example. Even though her fans think she's wonderful, there is still a huge part of the general public who "doubts" her integrity on EVERYTHING including but limited to her music. I've got to say that I was wrong about her. I thought that Madonna "got away" with stuff--I thought she wasn't held to the same standard. Well that's not true. Look at all this bs over the adoption. As I said in another thread, it's like people just don't give the woman a break. They view her as opportunistic AT EVERYTHING she does--even the good things. The public, media, or both can't separate the good from the bad. Now I read that CBS is cutting the crucifix scene from the Confessions broadcast. WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT ,and I don't consider myself a Madonna fan. Why can't CBS just air the thing, and let viewers decide for themselves?? But no... CBS doesn't want any controversy.

It's a shame.IT'S THE GENERAL PUBLIC WHO CAN'T DEAL WITH BEING CHALLENGED. And since the media wants to sell its product, they are going to shield the public from being possibly offended at the cost of preventing the public from having any dialogue or growth--not that an artist necessarily sets-out to cause any growth at all. The media is going to stir the pot of public opinion. It's typical because people don't want their views to be challenged by an image of a cross or a bare breast. In a way, Madonna and Janet are in the same boat. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Neither Janet nor the material girl CAN escape our judgment no matter what they do. If Janet presented herself as Little Mary Sunshine, well people would say it's contrived. People would find something to bitch about. That's another reason I'm not even sure if Janet released a "Enjoy" as a single, people would even give her a shot: then everyone would be griping that Janet just backed-down and was a sell-out. People just love to wallow in it, and be proven right-- or create scenarios which will prove them right.

So who is really a wrong or right: the fans or the critics? 20 Y. O. is NOT poop because at least some people--including casual/former Janet fans love it. I just don't understand why some critics confidently and freely write and profess their opinions as fact. As a reminder, It's NOT A FACT that Janet's past few cds are poop. It's only an opinion held by some-- former Janet fans who haven't liked her music in years or those who have never liked her anyway. Obviously those people are NO LONGER FANS OR NEVER WERE--and aren't going to give her music a shot unless if "rises" to their standards, so what exactly is shocking about that? Interestingly, for some current fans, that same elevation of "standard" might be considered a descent into mediocrity. Believe or not, Janet has fans who simply aren't offended by her image and who enjoy her work, so go figure. There's nothing delusional about it. I remember Frank Zappa said once that it only takes one person to view another person's effort as art. So for at least for that one person, that effort is a masterpiece. It's all about the way the audience responds--even an audience of one.

BTW, I'm not a huge Ludacris fan. Does that make his music poop? I'm not a huge Madonna fan either--Confessions was only so-so for me even though I can appreciate why others might enjoy it. Well because I'm not a huge Madonna fan, does that make her music poop? I'm not a huge Justin Timberlake fan either. Does that make his music poop? It's really all a matter of taste. Obviously,there are a lot of people who would disagree with me.


P.S. Apparently the Daily News is reporting that JD did in fact quit. It's in today's short news.
[Edited 10/20/06 6:12am]

sallysassalot said:

SoulAlive's comments. About internet fans thinking Push is a crazy choice for asingle. They seem to think she's strictly a club audience, when in fact, most of her songs aren't club-ready until they're remixed into something barely resembling the source, until this latest album.

Isel said:

panther514 said:

I don't even have the the inclination to respond to your numerous responses.

Suffice to say, YOU are no more of an INSIDER than I am. So as far as Madonna's motivations for choices in her personal life most certainly and her depiction of those choices, you don't even have a clue. In fact, I would venture to say that we don't really know her motivations behind her professional decisions as well. We can only base our OPINION upon her actions. And sometimes what WE SEE is not representative of THE TRUTH. The TRUTH is always more complicated than that even for those who believe that "actions speak louder than words." It's just NOT THAT SIMPLE.

And I emphatically repeat YOU, I, as well as ANYBODY ELSE aren't the AUTHORITIES on what constitutes POOP in regard to art. WE all can have our OPINIONS, but that's all they are.

In short, your detailed analysis of my commentary is simply YOUR OPINION. And a lot of people might share YOUR OPINION, but that still doesn't mean EVERYBODY agrees with it. That's all I'm saying. I'm not delusional. I'm not a fan who blindly follows his/her IDOL. In fact, I don't have any CELEBRITY idols. I don't even believe in CELEBRITY autographs. I've worked with enough celebrities and pseudo/quasi-celebrities to know that their literal shit stinks just as strongly as ours. So I have NO illusions about CELEBRITIES or ARTISTS. Furthermore, I have made similar criticisms of Janet and other artists. But the difference is that I'm not self-important enough to believe that MY OPINION is necessarily FACT. And even if it is FACT--as far as Janet's motivations, a lot of fans don't have a problem with what she does. Consequently, the way we interpret the "product" whatever that "product" might be is ALL a matter of OPINION.
[Edited 10/22/06 6:53am]

Isel, it's best just to ignore posts like panther, someone who's most likely never listened to a Janet album or seen her perform. It's obvious he's never seen Madonna perform, unless he thinks she lipsynchs bad notes and missed lyrics too He's obviously done no research before spewing venom.

And who says Janet doesn't emote in her delivery. It bothers me how people forgive Bob Dylan's limited range because he's emoting through his songs, yet Janet or Madonna get flack because they can't sing like Whitney or Mariah. It's all very hypocritical, with a hint of sexism.
[Edited 10/22/06 7:38am]

Isel said:

jayaredee said:

Dylan is in a completely different category to Janet Wackson, unless you're talking singers with a limited range. Dylan is one of the greatest living songwriters, who still happens to be releasing albums that are close to his best forty and change years into his career. What will Janet be doing in when she's 20 YO than today? My guess is she'll be orca fat and campaigning against liposuction.

Anyway, I think Janet emotes just fine - unfortunately her last album lacks emotion (amongst other things on the menu).

Shapeshifter said:

Yeah.. Bob Dylan.. I remember reading where he was considered a "sell-out" by folk purists for going to a more "electric-pop" sound. So Bob has had his critics, too. I would imagine that some music critics have never forgiven him. I also remember reading where people thought Eric Clapton was a sell-out, too, for going a more "mainstream" route. I wonder if some fans thought EC's pop-efforts were "poop" even though he sold millions.

And it might be true that Janet would not have the longevity of a Bob Dylan as far as a songwriter is concerned, because I would agree that what Bob lacks in vocal skills, he sure as heck makes up for as a poet/songwriter. ... But don't completely disregard her accomplishment for hanging-around for as long as she has, and making some sort of impact. Whether you or anyone else respects her or not, Janet made an impact. She did have something to say. Presently, she might be going through a transition. She might creatively just be in a slump, but it happens to the best of artists, so I'm not going to judge her too harshly. At least she made some sort of statement with her art. And if Janet wants do nothing but sit-back and eat bons-bons for the rest of her life, well nobody can say that she didn't accomplish anything in her career--and that she didn't try to make a difference.
[Edited 10/22/06 11:37am]

jayaredee said:

You're wrong on all accounts....I have listened to all of madonna and JJ's music and was actually impressed with both early in their careers....I am a working musician in addition to knowing numerous people who have worked on almost every big tour in the past 15 20 years....so I know a little about what i'm talking about but I don't profess to be all-knowing...but trust and believe this....BOTH of them lipsync over 50% of their performances live...if they didn't, they would sound like a hot mess....don't take my word for it...ask a sound engineer....and there is no sexism at all here....I think there are a lot of male "singers" that stink too. Neither Madonna nor JJ have to be able to belt out songs like Aretha...Sade can't...but she blows both of them out the water as far as conveying to you the lyrics she's singing...and it's just her and her voice on stage...no simple bubblegum lyrics ...no BS props...no boobs...no strip show....thats why every Cd she puts out will sell bigtime....without having to show her ass to do it.

Tessa said:

Give Push over to Dallas Austin to remix it would work as a single. I like it but I don't know if it's one of the better tracks on the album. It defentily isn't like any other track on the album so it doesn't give a good feel for the album.

I'm not certain if Madonna had much faith in it since it didn't make it into the Tour.

panther514 said:

The thing is people wanna see the big shows.

badujunkie said:

I think 'Sorry' was a good followup single. The BIG problem though was radio. MTV was playing the video consistantly, but radio wasnt on it probably because it was total leftfield of what was being played.'Hung Up' was also, but it got away with it cause it was catchy and more along the lines of a modern dance record. 'Sorry', though, was more disco sounding. It probably would have benefited from a strong promotion towards AC radio rather than Pop radio.

Same shit happened with U2's last album. 'Vertigo' was a major hit, and then BAM!, all the other singles bombed. Personally, I'm happy with the sales COADF achieved. It was a good recovery from the fiasco that was American Life. And it was a really popular album with the 18-35 demographic, thanks to strong word of mouth(something Janet's album has been suffering from, unfortunately.)

Besides, Madonna's been in the business for over 20 years. You can't expect her to sale like she did 10 or even 5 years ago, very much less achieve the sales she garnered in the 80s. In the end, she's fortunate in the sense that she has a large and loyal fanbase(same goes for veteran acts like U2, Bon Jovi, etc.)

panther514 said:

Oh bloody hell. Here we go with people and their "inside information." Fact, i've been to a few Madonna shows and know she lip synchs about 3 songs. That's not 50 percent of the concert dude. If you don't believe me, go on youtube and watch her shows. It's evident she doesn't lip synch 50% of her show.
Fact, people that go to Madonna's show don't go because she has Sade's voice, they enjoy the spectacle. If you don't like it whatever, but don't go calling fans like me loons because we think Madonna and Janet are great performers.

It's kind of ironic how you accuse sex of selling Madonna and Janet's cds when Janet's last 2 albums sunk when her tits were out all over the place and Madonna's Erotica was her lowest selling album at the point in her career when she didn't bother to get dressed.

So, nope. It's you that's wrong.

I don't know if this was already posted but read the line in bold, ouch!

http://www.foxnews.com/st...38,00.html

Janet Jackson's Boyfriend Quits Job Over Her
Saturday, October 21, 2006

By Roger Friedman


Janet Jackson's boyfriend, producer Jermaine Dupri, is out at Virgin Records.

Dupri was head of urban music at Virgin. But late yesterday, according to my sources, Dupri quit—i.e. was forced out—after disappointing sales of Jackson's comeback album called "20 YO."

Three weeks into its release, the album is a dud with less than 500,000 copies sold. I told you in this space last week, before anyone else, that the CD had dropped an astonishing 77 percent in sales in its second week.

For Jackson, this is especially painful since '20 YO' was the last album on her Virgin contract. She now faces the task of negotiating a new deal with little leverage.

Dupri was partially responsible along with Randy Jackson ("American Idol" fame, not the brother) for making Mariah Carey's "Emancipation of Mimi" album a monster hit. With Janet, he opted to make her into something she couldn't be at age 40—a hip hop diva—rather than present her as an adult star. Kids did not flock to her, and adults didn't want to hear it.

At the 11th hour there was talk of Mariah possibly re-recording one of the '20 YO' songs with Janet to resuscitate the album. But with Dupri gone, '20 YO' will probably just get written off as a mistake now. This will leave Jason Flom, head of Virgin, to rebuild the urban department at the label—something I'm told he's been itching to do since he took over last year.

Roger Friedman is an conservative asshole, noted for his constant bashing of MJ and Madonna, while praising Mariah Carey among her every move.

I've gotten to the point not to even read any of his articles.

jayaredee said:

Youtube, huh? LOL...If you want to see a spectacle and get more bang for your buck....go to a circus...they actually use their mics...Sheesh!

jayaredee said:

That was a fair assessment of JJ and 20YO...like it or not.

wonder505 said:

To cut this thread short, the album just stinks. And JD resigned!
Now serve up a new album...

panther514 said:

I guess because you're a musician, you just don't appreciate artists like Madonna and Janet who are more "visual," incorporating dance and other theatrical-type elements into their productions? That's fine with me. I happen to enjoy all types of artists: I enjoy musicians, singer-songwriters, singers and also more theatrical types like Janet and to a lesser extent Madonna. Whether or not their music is "over-produced" or enhanced, their product is still enjoyable enough to purchase. Plus their tours are still entertaining in overall performance value and concept even if they lip-synched every song. I wouldn't go to see Madonna, for example, to hear her belt-out a tune or play flashy guitar. I would go to one of her shows to see the entire spectacle. Now with someone like Sade- I wouldn't be expecting her to dance like Janet or Madonna. I wouldn't be expecting that type of show. So my expectations would be completely different, yet I would be equally entertained. And BTW even if Sade decided to use a back-up track, I wouldn't judge her to harshly either: it's pretty tough on the voice to sing night after night--particularly for those who aren't the best-trained singers but even trained singers have to be careful. So it wouldn't surprise or disappointment if a singer like Sade sang to a back-up track from time to time if her voice happened to be strained, or she was trying to "save" her voice.

As far as this Friedman guy.... whatever. The point is that other people don't agree with him either. So just because he happens to support and share your opinion doesn't make him "right." If I LOVED 20 Y.O. what he, you, or anyone else says isn't going to mean a whole lot or change my mind. Now if a lot of people didn't connect with the cd--which seems to be the case--well maybe you and Friedman might be representative of some of the reasons for it. However, that doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you or him. It's just a further illustration/indication of how Janet is viewed by the general public more than her fans.
[Edited 10/23/06 5:52am]

Isel said:

Full props to her for reinventing herself so completely - and, musically, successfully up until and including TVR. She seems to have run out of ideas and options now though.

wonder505 said:

That's Janet gone with him too. Wonder where she'll go to next?

Shapeshifter said:

I didn't know that about Eric. Wow... He seems to be really fascinated with the blues. I really love his Robert Johnson cd. Ah that's disappointing about Eric. Plus he was a huge fan of Stevie Ray- to the point where he thought Stevie was so much better than he as a guitarist.

Yeah. Bob... But see people are critical of him.

I don't know. I feel badly for Janet--even though she's a multi-millionaire who is going to be just fine. It's just sad when an artist has to go through this. Then again, she might actually grow as a result of all of this professional turmoil. We'll just have to wait and see.

btw...even though I agree with some of what Roger Friedman is saying...I still think he's a total jerk.He always gloats whenever an artist is having problems,and he always thinks his opinions are facts.What a loser!

SoulAlive said:

Not only that, he trails fan boards of the artists he's obsessed with, steals information and then brags about being the first to "report" it, even if it's some insignificant thing only fans would know or care about.

Ellie said:

I guess we shouldn't be surprised.He works for Fox News!

Isel said:

She should look at this as a wake-up call.After two flop albums in a row,it's time for a change.She is at a career crossroads.She needs to grow,evolve and re-invent herself.People are no longer interested in her boobs or her sexuality,she's gotta offer something more.

Her Virgin contract has ended,she is now in a position to make a fresh new start elsewhere.She should sign a new record deal and get back into the studio and make an amazing,knock-em-dead album that presents her as a serious,dedicated artist with something meaningful to say! If she makes another sex-themed R&B album,she may as well kiss her career goodbye.Nobody wants to hear that anymore.