thesexofit said:

Those grooves he did with Jerkins were far more inventive than those on History. Even Privacy is very creative in a musical sense and I don't even rate the song that much, but it's brilliantly arranged and produced. There's some very playful stuff on that album. Heartbreaker, Invincible, 2000 Watts, Threatened... and the outtake Shout.

thesexofit said:

Oh I forgot about Speechless, what a wonderful song. The Lost Children does have a great melody, the lyrics and children choir ruins it for me. It reminds me of Kates Bush's Bertie

He always have great melodies he just lost this dark sparkle what made those songs work. Like Liberian Girl. There is a spooky quality to it which I love. Same for Will You Be There, Little Susie etc..

pjh1972 said:

What's exciting about working with somebody who peaked creatively and in popularity 15 years ago? I want Mike to make a good album, but I'm not holding my breath.

Cloudbuster said:

I dont think Michael should work with jam/lewis again, as i too, find "History" to be a bit flat on the jam/lewis tracks. I give 'em "too bad" though, and the title track, as i love those tracks.

I thought, judging by "you rock my world", that Invincible would be crap. bit i prefer it over "history" (only just). I agree with you on "Privacy". Michael sings his ass off on "heaven can wait", a track, like many of the early motown stuff, that is elevated from a average song, to a good song, by Michaels vocals alone.

thesexofit said:

Damn! I think that's one of his best ever songs. Easily in my MJ top 10.

And yeah, I'll take Vince over History in a heartbeat, it's far more consistent. I don't think he puts a foot wrong until You Are My Life but the only real horror is The Lost Children. Pretty melody, nice sentiment, but Michael... NO!!!

thesexofit said:

He does that with a lot of songs, also post motown. Nobody sings like him!

Stanton said:

and exactly why, pray tell, is michael in need of "edgy street" and "party" records (and when the words party record pop up, i immediately think of stuff like redd foxx and blowfly)?

Cloudbuster said:

What a crock of shit.

Sorry, I don't mean no dis-respect, but Invincible isn't half the album HIStory is.

There's more passion on They Don't Care About Us alone than anything on Invincible. Privacy is slick and well-produced but also tired and un-inspired, like most of the up-tempos on that album.

MattyJam said:

Couldn't have said it better myself. And the production on HIStory is so clean and crisp. Invincible just sounds like someone merely turned the volume knob up to 11.

I find it hard to believe that any MJ fan prefers Invincible to HIStory.

Invincible does have some nice ballads. I dig the soul of tracks like Heaven Can Wait and Break Of Dawn. But the up-tempos are largely lame and cheesey. Heartbreaker goes on waaay too long, has an awful rap cameo by some nobody who can barely string a sentence together and a weak verse with cringeful lyrics.

Invincible is a bit stale sounding, Privacy is faked passion - a watered down Tabloid Junkie. 2000 Watts is fun but nothing spectacular.

I like Threatened but it wouldn't have made the grade on Dangerous, HIStory or Blood. You Rock My World and Unbreakable are the only up-tempos driven by any real inspiration. And even they would be amongst the weakest on any other of his 90s albums.

And then you have Cry... but that's another story altogether.

HIStory is brimming with inspiration and genuine passion. An artist who is still driven and has something to say. He has nothing to say on Invincible. And you just know that it was Rodney Jerkins who slaved away over the production of those up-tempo jams while Michael was busy giving speeches in Oxford. With HIStory you could tell that Michael was the brain-child behind most of those songs - the evidence is in the credits where he is often listed as the sole writer and producer of most tracks.

SoulAlive said:

Hip Hop IS music, whether you like it or not. Quincy Jones mainly produced music for jazz artists before he worked with Mike. Artists and producers can't really grow if they stay in their comfort zones.

mikek1 said:

That's hilarious.There's nothing "street" about Michael.He only makes himself look foolish when he tries to go this route.

scorp84 said:

Working with trendy,flavor-of-the-month hip hop producers is not MY idea of "growing as an artist".Michael just makes himself look desperate.And yes,hip-hop is music,but Michael is not hip-hop.It's not his style.

Cloudbuster said:

Funny,I don't see Madonna or Prince working with trendy,flavor-of-the-month hip-hop producers on their albums

Sure,they're adding modern textures into their music,but they're not making themselves look foolish and desperate.

SoulAlive said:

Hmmm, so playing tonsil-tennis with Britney Spears in a mock wedding performance wasn't "desperate"?

Madonna doesn't work with HipHop producers because she isn't black, even though she attempted jumping on the R&B bandwagon with Bedtime Stories. She still works with "trendy, flavor-of-the-month" dance producers and DJs.
[Edited 10/3/06 1:38am]

MattyJam said:

Yeah, on History he had a lot to say, cause he´s been through a lot. There´s a lot of anger on the album. No wonder after experiencing 1993. His emotions must have been very strong during that time and you can hear that ont he album.

Invincible was done after a period when the biggest thing that happened to him was having kids. That´s what influenced it. That´s why it´s so sweet and calm. Of course there are also some angry songs, but the anger was not as strong becaus of his kids, I believe. The beginning of Invincible - all the uptempo songs - that´s just Mike trying to be innovative again. That´s his thing as well.

MattyJam said:

Oh really? Let's see...


***'Ray Of Light' was co-produced by William Orbit,who was hardly a "trendy,flavor-of-the-month" producer.He was known,but he wasn't exactly Jam and Lewis.

***'Music' and 'American Life' were co-produced by Mirwais,a virtual unknown.Can you name any hits he's had besides the ones he did with Maddy?

***'Confessions On A Dancefloor' was co-produced by Madonna's bandmember Stuart Price,who is hardly a well-known producer with alot of hits to his name.

SoulAlive said:

I'd like to nominate this for the "worst-informed post of the year"-award...

Didn't Missy Elliot do a rap on Into The Groove for a Gap advert or some shit like that?



Isn't that just the epitome of artistic integrity?

MattyJam said:

Yes,Madonna has worked with Missy before.She is a fan and there's nothing wrong with working with people you admire.But for the most part,Madonna doesn't do alot of collaborations.Her albums aren't filled with a bunch of other artists,hip-hop cameos and "flavor-of-the-month" producers.Compare 'Ray Of Light' to 'History',for example.

SoulAlive said:

Lets, shall we?

They Don't Care About Us, Stranger In Moscow, Little Susie, Childhood, D.S., Money, Earth Song... songs written and produced solely by Michael with no outside assistance.

Has Madonna ever done that in her entire career? There's a reason why she always CO-producers and has never produced a single track from her massive back catalogue by herself.

Because she can't do it. Michael can. Because he's more talented.

Michael worked with Missy too,btw.During sessions for 'Invincible',he worked with every "hot" producer he could find...

Missy Elliot
P.Diddy
Wyclef Jean
Lauryn Hill


most of these collaborations didn't even appear on the album.His strategy for making music is simple....wait four years,pick up an issue of Billboard,see who the "hot" producers are,call them up and spend another two years working on songs.Then,waste another year before releasing the CD,which by then will sound old and out-of-date.In 2002/2003,the hot sound was Murder Inc,and not surprisingly,MJ expressed a desire to work with Irv Gotti.That's not artistic inspiration,that's desperation.

SoulAlive said:

How's this for desperation?

MattyJam said:

if he's sooooo talented and if he can produce songs all by himself,why did he spend $30 million making 'Invincible'? Why did he need help from all those producers and songwriters? Furthermore,why would you want to tout a schmaltzy piece of crap like "Childhood"? Yes,he produced it himself,but from the way it sounds,he probably could have used a producer,lol.

Invincible was desperate and out-dated, I'll give you that.

But before that he was still musically on-the-pulse. And we'll see what comes of his next album...

But Madonna's had her moments... jumping on the bandwagon with R&B producers for Bedtimes Stories... etc.

MartyMcFly said:

That's nothing compared to this lame publicity stunt


a fake marriage designed to save his ruined image

That's desperate... while we're scraping the barrel... how about the fact that ol' gap-tooth is a serial-abortionist?

MattyJam said:

Actually,I didn't see it as "jumping on the R&B bandwagon".Madonna has always done R&B songs.Her first album featured alot of R&B.She was working with people like Reggie Lucas (an R&B producer).Her second album was produced by Niles Rodgers of Chic.Although she's known as a pop artist,she has always done R&B here and there.

The difference is,she evolves.She doesn't do the same thing over and over.Look at her other 90s albums....'I'm Breathless'...'Erotica'....'Evita'.....and 'Ray Of Light'.Four distinctly different albums.

.
[Edited 10/4/06 5:43am]

SoulAlive said:

The difference between you and I is that I can be a fan of someone and still accept their faults.

You are blindely devoted to Madonna and would justify her every move.