unclenick1871 said: NDRU said: The song still sounds great to me. [Edited 9/26/06 11:55am] Man NDRU, you are always ON POINT. Keep the quality music opinions comming. live4luvandluvwillive4u you just made my day! My Legacy
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guitarslinger44 said: Lammastide said: I've never understood all the credit given to Nirvana.
I'll give them "interesting." And their lyrics and contructions were even pretty thoughtful. (The whole quiet-loud-quiet succession was MAD energizing! And All Apologies, in fact, remains one of my all-time favorite songs.) But I wonder if they were simply "the lucky ones" amid countless kids that were fairly identical, just as talented... and just as internally bored out of their friggin' minds. That whole "grunge" scene was the weirdest thing I think I've seen as an adult. It was like a '90s Beat Generation redux: A bunch of largely middleclass, suburban kids suffering the futility of being raised not quite desolate enough to access any deeper personal soul, but perhaps not quite privileged and perfect enough that they could access the spoils of mindless mall culture. (Joni Mitchell called 'em "whiny white kids.") Suddenly, "fitting in" and actually being happy with things became somehow unsatisfactory. ...especially if those things were enjoyed by too many other people. And God forbid those other people not be as melancholy and cynical as you! So no more glam. No more pop music or pop icons. No more allegiance to '80s-style capitalism and mass marketing (even though secretly that's exactly what every would-be-recognized grunge band craved.) And it was cool as hell to claim anything esoteric and/or underdog among your peers and inspirations: So suddenly 120 Minute-type no-name acts over, say, U2 or R.E.M. (both of whom were heralded as awesome in their own "alternative" days, but rendered somehow less cool simply because they'd become too appreciated); suddenly the heroin of yesteryear over the more contemporary cocaine as the "chic drug"; suddenly the clinically depressed homeless look over... well... personal hygiene. And the nihilist reactionism didn't end there: As soon as people began respecting the very real merits of the scene's aesthetic, the purveyors thereof effectively turned their backs even on themselves! Bands broke up. Grungers started publicly dissing grunge. Other started ODing and/or killing themselves. The sh*t was crazy! (Apparently the logic of the scene was/is: People acknowledging something is worth existing = that thing isn't worth existing.) There are bands I like that were grouped with this scene, but self-loathing and self-pity en masse has just never appealed that much to me. ...No offense to all y'all Nirvana/grunge fans, by the way. Just stating my opinion. [Edited 9/26/06 22:04pm] Nirvana was a polarizing force in the music industry. Yeah, you're right, there WERE a lot of suburban kids who wound up picking up guitars (hell I lived in the country and Nirvana inspired ME to want to play guitar) and making crap music as a result of it. But you can't fault Nirvana for that, just like you can't fault 2Pac for hacks like Cassidy or Fabulous. Much like hip hop (at least in its earlier incarnations) Nirvana brought forth emotions in their music that a LOT of people felt but that weren't on the surface of American society. Anger, confusion,etc. and did it in a literate way. Here was a celebrated group with a writer/singer who had actually read a fucking book, and could put words together in an interesting an ironic way. And Kurt was HONEST. How many pop stars these days acknowledge their drug use as more than just a way to make people think they're cool, or actively diss the press and record companies that are supposed to be feeding them? God, if an artist did that kind of thing today, their career would be over. Nirvana wasn't an asskissing, opportunistic, pandering act like so many bands and artists today are. They were honest to a fault, which was part of what got them so much press (and not always good press.) And the music. Kurt was talented as a writer, easily as talented as John Lennon was. Yes lennon came years before, but Kurt is easily a match for him and would have proved it had he lived longer. And Krist and Dave's bass and drum riffs were just as important to the music as Kurt's guitar riffs. Imagine "In Bloom" without Dave's drum fills between chords! It'd be a much different song! In all, Nirvana is one of those things that you either get it or you don't. If you don't, there's no shame in that. Part of it was being there and being a certain age at the time they hit, and seeing the phenominon first hand. If another band of this ilk came out today, they'd be heralded as much, but needless to say, the industry, and the artists themselves don't allow for things like that to happen. [Edited 9/29/06 10:35am] Good stuff, GS44. I totally respect where you're coming from. I don't fault Nirvana for inspiring the lame side of grunge. My comments were a general observation of the overall scene. I'll go back and listen again to Nirvana's stuff. When Nevermind came out, I was assistant manager of a wreck-a-sto in suburban Cleveland, and I think the entire wildfire of the scene actually turned me off rather than on. Maybe now that I'm no longer "expected" to love Nirvana, I can appreciate them on my own terms. I don't expect a wholesale conversion , but it'll be interesting. Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.” | |
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Lammastide said: guitarslinger44 said: Nirvana was a polarizing force in the music industry. Yeah, you're right, there WERE a lot of suburban kids who wound up picking up guitars (hell I lived in the country and Nirvana inspired ME to want to play guitar) and making crap music as a result of it. But you can't fault Nirvana for that, just like you can't fault 2Pac for hacks like Cassidy or Fabulous. Much like hip hop (at least in its earlier incarnations) Nirvana brought forth emotions in their music that a LOT of people felt but that weren't on the surface of American society. Anger, confusion,etc. and did it in a literate way. Here was a celebrated group with a writer/singer who had actually read a fucking book, and could put words together in an interesting an ironic way. And Kurt was HONEST. How many pop stars these days acknowledge their drug use as more than just a way to make people think they're cool, or actively diss the press and record companies that are supposed to be feeding them? God, if an artist did that kind of thing today, their career would be over. Nirvana wasn't an asskissing, opportunistic, pandering act like so many bands and artists today are. They were honest to a fault, which was part of what got them so much press (and not always good press.) And the music. Kurt was talented as a writer, easily as talented as John Lennon was. Yes lennon came years before, but Kurt is easily a match for him and would have proved it had he lived longer. And Krist and Dave's bass and drum riffs were just as important to the music as Kurt's guitar riffs. Imagine "In Bloom" without Dave's drum fills between chords! It'd be a much different song! In all, Nirvana is one of those things that you either get it or you don't. If you don't, there's no shame in that. Part of it was being there and being a certain age at the time they hit, and seeing the phenominon first hand. If another band of this ilk came out today, they'd be heralded as much, but needless to say, the industry, and the artists themselves don't allow for things like that to happen. [Edited 9/29/06 10:35am] Good stuff, GS44. I totally respect where you're coming from. I don't fault Nirvana for inspiring the lame side of grunge. My comments were a general observation of the overall scene. I'll go back and listen again to Nirvana's stuff. When Nevermind came out, I was assistant manager of a wreck-a-sto in suburban Cleveland, and I think the entire wildfire of the scene actually turned me off rather than on. Maybe now that I'm no longer "expected" to love Nirvana, I can appreciate them on my own terms. I don't expect a wholesale conversion , but it'll be interesting. Lol I feel you! I can only imagine what it must have been like working in a record store when that album came out! I dont' imagine I'd ever want to hear it again! I think In Utero is their best record by far because there really aren't any other records (that I've heard anyway) that have that sound and vibe to them. It scared me the first time I heard it, and I wasn't sure I wanted to listen to it again. I dont' think i have ever had that reaction before or since! | |
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guitarslinger44 said: Lol I feel you! I can only imagine what it must have been like working in a record store when that album came out! I dont' imagine I'd ever want to hear it again! I think In Utero is their best record by far because there really aren't any other records (that I've heard anyway) that have that sound and vibe to them. It scared me the first time I heard it, and I wasn't sure I wanted to listen to it again. I dont' think i have ever had that reaction before or since! I worked in a record store and it was kind of annoying when everyone came in asking for the same stuff (in my case Tracy Chapman & Bobby McFerrin). My Legacy
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NDRU said: guitarslinger44 said: Lol I feel you! I can only imagine what it must have been like working in a record store when that album came out! I dont' imagine I'd ever want to hear it again! I think In Utero is their best record by far because there really aren't any other records (that I've heard anyway) that have that sound and vibe to them. It scared me the first time I heard it, and I wasn't sure I wanted to listen to it again. I dont' think i have ever had that reaction before or since! I worked in a record store and it was kind of annoying when everyone came in asking for the same stuff (in my case Tracy Chapman & Bobby McFerrin). Ohhhhh.... you've got to be talking about 1986-87. I missed that era by a year. Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.” | |
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heartbeatocean said: Load up on guns
Bring your friends Its fun to lose And to pretend Shes overboard Myself assured I know I know A dirty word Hello (x 16) With the lights out its less dangerous Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious Here we are now Entertain us A mulatto An albino A mosquito My libido Yea Im worse at what I do best And for this gift I feel blessed Our little group has always been And always will until the end Hello (x 16) With the lights out its less dangerous Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious Here we are now Entertain us A mulatto An albino A mosquito My libido Yea And I forget Just what it takes And yet I guess it makes me smile I found it hard Its hard to find Oh well, whatever, nevermind Hello (x 16) With the lights out its less dangerous Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious Here we are now Entertain us A mulatto An albino A mosquito My libido Yea I was on a music fast in the '90s when this song came out. So tell me, what is it about? What is its history? How do you feel about it? the WORST fucking song in HISTORY from a band that killed rock Check it out ...Shiny Toy Guns R gonna blowup VERY soon and bring melody back to music..you heard it here 1st! http://www.myspacecomment...theone.mp3 | |
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TommyRoss said: FuNkeNsteiN said: Nirvana = Overrated crapfest.
End of discussion. [Edited 9/26/06 12:17pm] So why bother commenting? I'm curious - do you like hard rock at all? Go pee on somebody else's cornflakes. why shouldnt he comment? Nirvana ruined rock plain and simple and it has never recovered and probably never will Check it out ...Shiny Toy Guns R gonna blowup VERY soon and bring melody back to music..you heard it here 1st! http://www.myspacecomment...theone.mp3 | |
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Lammastide said: I've never understood all the credit given to Nirvana.
I'll give them "interesting." And their lyrics and contructions were even pretty thoughtful. (The whole quiet-loud-quiet succession was MAD energizing! And All Apologies, in fact, remains one of my all-time favorite songs.) But I wonder if they were simply "the lucky ones" amid countless kids that were fairly identical, just as talented... and just as internally bored out of their friggin' minds. That whole "grunge" scene was the weirdest thing I think I've seen as an adult. It was like a '90s Beat Generation redux: A bunch of largely middleclass, suburban kids suffering the futility of being raised not quite desolate enough to access any deeper personal soul, but perhaps not quite privileged and perfect enough that they could access the spoils of mindless mall culture. (Joni Mitchell called 'em "whiny white kids.") Suddenly, "fitting in" and actually being happy with things became somehow unsatisfactory. ...especially if those things were enjoyed by too many other people. And God forbid those other people not be as melancholy and cynical as you! So no more glam. No more pop music or pop icons. No more allegiance to '80s-style capitalism and mass marketing (even though secretly that's exactly what every would-be-recognized grunge band craved.) And it was cool as hell to claim anything esoteric and/or underdog among your peers and inspirations: So suddenly 120 Minute-type no-name acts over, say, U2 or R.E.M. (both of whom were heralded as awesome in their own "alternative" days, but rendered somehow less cool simply because they'd become too appreciated); suddenly the heroin of yesteryear over the more contemporary cocaine as the "chic drug"; suddenly the clinically depressed homeless look over... well... personal hygiene. And the nihilist reactionism didn't end there: As soon as people began respecting the very real merits of the scene's aesthetic, the purveyors thereof effectively turned their backs even on themselves! Bands broke up. Grungers started publicly dissing grunge. Other started ODing and/or killing themselves. The sh*t was crazy! (Apparently the logic of the scene was/is: People acknowledging something is worth existing = that thing isn't worth existing.) There are bands I like that were grouped with this scene, but self-loathing and self-pity en masse has just never appealed that much to me. ...No offense to all y'all Nirvana/grunge fans, by the way. Just stating my opinion. [Edited 9/26/06 22:04pm] great post Check it out ...Shiny Toy Guns R gonna blowup VERY soon and bring melody back to music..you heard it here 1st! http://www.myspacecomment...theone.mp3 | |
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NDRU said: mrdespues said: As with a lot of his lyrics, they are intended to set a mood more than anything else... to suggest rather than be as literal as with some other songwriters.
like Lennon "yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye" Cobain "meat eating orchids forgive no one just yet/ cut myself on angel's hair & baby's breath" The lyrics were something you'd never heard before and might not have made sense, but they painted a picture nonetheless Actually, I find Kurt's lyrics far more concrete and to-the-point than John Lennon's hallucinatory ones. They're quite transparent, actually. actually... | |
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Lammastide said: That whole "grunge" scene was the weirdest thing I think I've seen as an adult. It was like a '90s Beat Generation redux: A bunch of largely middleclass, suburban kids suffering the futility of being raised not quite desolate enough to access any deeper personal soul, but perhaps not quite privileged and perfect enough that they could access the spoils of mindless mall culture. (Joni Mitchell called 'em "whiny white kids.") Suddenly, "fitting in" and actually being happy with things became somehow unsatisfactory. ...especially if those things were enjoyed by too many other people. And God forbid those other people not be as melancholy and cynical as you! Growing up middle class in the suburbs is like a prison sentence. I should know. And the nihilist reactionism didn't end there: As soon as people began respecting the very real merits of the scene's aesthetic, the purveyors thereof effectively turned their backs even on themselves! Bands broke up. Grungers started publicly dissing grunge. Other started ODing and/or killing themselves. The sh*t was crazy! (Apparently the logic of the scene was/is: People acknowledging something is worth existing = that thing isn't worth existing.)
There are bands I like that were grouped with this scene, but self-loathing and self-pity en masse has just never appealed that much to me. I guess it's a slightly different flavor, but didn't the punk scene already capture nihilism for the teen population? Or they needed grunge because the punk scene was dead? | |
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Anx said: i loved it when nirvana would come out in tutus and do ballet dances to tori's version of 'teen spirit' - i wish to hell i had it on video! see, i never thought of nirvana as angst for the sake of angst. i always thought there was a lot of humor and insight and genuine sadness in kurt's lyrics. i think anyone who registers the whole of their work as a lot of big angry noise is just skimming the surface instead of cracking it. a song like "all apologies" or "pennyroyal tea" is just completely brilliant to me, and makes me frustrated for where his songwriting could have gone. i'm sorry, but i remember the days when kurt was writing love notes to the advocate magazine and writing killer liner notes about how he didn't want date-raping jocks at his shows and kissing his bandmates on the mouth on SNL and starting feuds with axl rose and doing a morrissey impersonation during a tv performance of 'teen spirit' and playing an old guitar of leadbelly's on mtv unplugged and covering an old bowie tune...and and and...yeah, you're right, they sucked, what was i thinking that all sounds really hot | |
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mancabdriver said: i think this will help us understand the concept of the song:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...reLOdJxT4I How did weird Al have time to put that together so quickly for my thread? That is frickin brilliant. Weird Al is a fricken unsung GENIUS. all hail the kazoos are priceless the tuba | |
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heartbeatocean said: I guess it's a slightly different flavor, but didn't the punk scene already capture nihilism for the teen population? Or they needed grunge because the punk scene was dead? I was too young to really appreciate Punk the first time 'round, but my impression of its angsty, self-destructive nature is that it's SO pronounced it's almost non-threatening caricature, ya know? I mean, who's truly suffering such severe ennui that they have to shave half their head, die the other half aqua, and pierce their cheeks with safety pins? Grunge, on the other hand, seems loathing and dejected, yet just functional enough to be an earnest manifestation of something clinically diagnosible. Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.” | |
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Lammastide said: heartbeatocean said: I guess it's a slightly different flavor, but didn't the punk scene already capture nihilism for the teen population? Or they needed grunge because the punk scene was dead? I was too young to really appreciate Punk the first time 'round, but my impression of its angsty, self-destructive nature is that it's SO pronounced it's almost non-threatening caricature, ya know? Easy to say with hindsight, sure. But if youda been there, youda been cowering yer boots for sure. | |
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heartbeatocean said: NDRU said: like Lennon "yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye" Cobain "meat eating orchids forgive no one just yet/ cut myself on angel's hair & baby's breath" The lyrics were something you'd never heard before and might not have made sense, but they painted a picture nonetheless Actually, I find Kurt's lyrics far more concrete and to-the-point than John Lennon's hallucinatory ones. They're quite transparent, actually. actually... Have you heard Plasic Ono Band? In Utero has always reminded me of it i it's directness. Here's some other comparisons: Lennon "Mother you had me but I never had you." Cobain "I tried hard to have a father but instead I had a dad." Lennon "Yes I'm lonely want to die" Cobain "Look on the bright side--suicide" Lennon "Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be" Cobain "All in all is all we are" Lennon "My body is aching Goose-pimple bone" Cobain "Blanket acne'd with cigarette burns." Lennon "I'm so tired I haven't slept a wink" Cobain "I'm so tired I can't sleep" [Edited 10/3/06 11:47am] My Legacy
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NDRU said: heartbeatocean said: Actually, I find Kurt's lyrics far more concrete and to-the-point than John Lennon's hallucinatory ones. They're quite transparent, actually. actually... Have you heard Plasic Ono Band? In Utero has always reminded me of it i it's directness. Here's some other comparisons: Lennon "Mother you had me but I never had you." Cobain "I tried hard to have a father but instead I had a dad." Lennon "Yes I'm lonely want to die" Cobain "Look on the bright side--suicide" Lennon "Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be" Cobain "All in all is all we are" Lennon "My body is aching Goose-pimple bone" Cobain "Blanket acne'd with cigarette burns." Lennon "I'm so tired I haven't slept a wink" Cobain "I'm so tired I can't sleep" [Edited 10/3/06 11:47am] You've certainly done your homework. This has been a GREAT thread everyone. I've learned tons! | |
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I found an interview of the band on youtube. I won't link it because it's stupid but they talk about this song:
Chris: The song's about lazy teenager and apathy or just...nobody cares about anything anymore. Dave: It's the feeling of getting on stage and playing to the people... Kurt: Kinda like that Bette Midler and The Rose vibe... | |
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heartbeatocean said: I found an interview of the band on youtube. I won't link it because it's stupid but they talk about this song:
Chris: The song's about lazy teenager and apathy or just...nobody cares about anything anymore. Dave: It's the feeling of getting on stage and playing to the people... Kurt: Kinda like that Bette Midler and The Rose vibe... There's a clip of Kurt being wheeled to to the mic, where he stands & sings a few bars of "The Rose" before collapsing on the stage (an act, of course) Interesting opinions. Strange that some people can think so highly of Smells like... and others can think it's "the worst fucking song in history!" My Legacy
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NDRU said: heartbeatocean said: I found an interview of the band on youtube. I won't link it because it's stupid but they talk about this song:
Chris: The song's about lazy teenager and apathy or just...nobody cares about anything anymore. Dave: It's the feeling of getting on stage and playing to the people... Kurt: Kinda like that Bette Midler and The Rose vibe... There's a clip of Kurt being wheeled to to the mic, where he stands & sings a few bars of "The Rose" before collapsing on the stage (an act, of course) Interesting opinions. Strange that some people can think so highly of Smells like... and others can think it's "the worst fucking song in history!" I'd love to see that clip if you have a link. I tried doing a search on youtube and it didn't come up with anything. [Edited 10/4/06 10:52am] | |
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heartbeatocean said: NDRU said: There's a clip of Kurt being wheeled to to the mic, where he stands & sings a few bars of "The Rose" before collapsing on the stage (an act, of course) Interesting opinions. Strange that some people can think so highly of Smells like... and others can think it's "the worst fucking song in history!" I'd love to see that clip if you have a link. I tried doing a search on youtube and it didn't come up with anything. [Edited 10/4/06 10:52am] I saw it on their live video, I think it's called "Nirvana! Live! Tonight! Sold Out!" I seem to remember it was right at the beginning. My Legacy
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NDRU said: heartbeatocean said: I'd love to see that clip if you have a link. I tried doing a search on youtube and it didn't come up with anything. [Edited 10/4/06 10:52am] I saw it on their live video, I think it's called "Nirvana! Live! Tonight! Sold Out!" I seem to remember it was right at the beginning. Thanks. I knew virtually nothing about Nirvana before I started this thread but now I can see what all the fuss was about. | |
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heartbeatocean said: NDRU said: I saw it on their live video, I think it's called "Nirvana! Live! Tonight! Sold Out!" I seem to remember it was right at the beginning. Thanks. I knew virtually nothing about Nirvana before I started this thread but now I can see what all the fuss was about. cool. I loved them when they were popular, but I didn't like them immediately. It took me a while to get it. My Legacy
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i was also working in a record store for the nirvana hysetira and like someone else mentioned i went off them for awhile bcos of it. I was mad on soundgarden so i had something to fall back on. i have enjoyed going back to Nirvana every now and then. Nevermind and 'SLTS' may be the "watershed" momnets of Nirvana's music but I'm all about 'In Utero' and the 'Unplugged' discs, personally. they really came into their own on those 2 disc and showed a different side on each.
i miss them. VIVA Nirvana!!! Prince #MUSICIANICONLEGEND | |
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Up untill Nirvana became big rock was so contrived, glittzy and the music was kind of lame...all those "rock" bands that dominated MTV and the airwaves like Poision, Motley Crue, ect were more into partying and acting "like a rock star" that the music was most definatly weak and lame. It all felt very contrived and "acted out".
When Nirvana came around it was exciting because people saw their energy and liked that they were not trying to be anything but themselves...people have respect for that. They don't like to feel like they are being fed something by corporate America with rockers trying to be rockers. Not only was Nirvana pure energy but they were also melotic and you can sure hear the Beatles influence. As much as Kurt Cobian didn't like being the "spokesman" of a generation he did caputre kinda the feelings of alot of young people at the time. Something authentic will always be appealing in the music industry...then it will become marketable and it will be exploited. Then people will get tired of it and it will become a backlash. I think people were hungry for some raw passion in their music, some realness and Kurt Cobain struck a cord with so many people I think because people didn't feel like he was trying to sell them something...like how you feel whenever you see the music artists of today bombard you on MTV. Cobian was not a phoney. I'm not saying I hate pop music at all...I'm just saying alot of it nowadays is suffering because it is all so controlled by salesmen, I think people can feel that people really want authenticity in their art and that is not being satisfied right now. | |
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Hey NDRU! It was cool meeting you last night and continuing our Kurt Cobain discussion off-line. | |
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heartbeatocean said: Hey NDRU! It was cool meeting you last night and continuing our Kurt Cobain discussion off-line.
Yes! Hope we talk again soon. My Legacy
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