I think this started happening in the 80's when you didn't really need to know how to play an instrument or understand music notation to be a producer/musician.

wonder505 said:

Yeah, my understanding is that producers like Dre & Timbaland are actually musicians (whether they're good musicians is another matter). They don't just sit behind a mixing board, they create beats & basslines, keyboard lines, etc.

Of course they probably do sit behind the board too (like a traditional producer) like when they're recording a guitar or the vocals.

Again, this is my understanding, most likely someone will say I'm completely wrong.

I should add that LOTS of traditional producers are also musicians, but they don't usually play on the recordings (unless they're producing themselves ala Prince, of course!).

SoulAlive said:

First off, you are way off about Rodney. He's a hell of a keyboard player and if anything he sometimes overcrowds a lot of his songs with melodies without filling in the middle and the bottom end.
Second off, MANY producers (including Prince) have a signature sound. Producers like Jimmy & Terry and Trevor Horn are better because they work with the artists' sound but its not uncommon for most producers to put something in their work as a watermark of sorts.
Also, to the rest of you:
A while back I posted Timbaland's resume on a thread. His list of productions is RIDICULOUS. He is prolific as hell. The problem is that EVERYBODY wants him and the Neptunes to produce their songs. Unlike Pharrell & Co., Timbaland actually seems to try to accomodate as many people (who can afford him) as possible. He knows from looking at Teddy Riley that once his sound is over, he's probably done, so he's trying to ride the wave til it hits the shore and who can blame him? Which one of you would turn down the kind of cash they offer him for doing what you love to do? He has shown with Aalyiah's material that he can write good stuff when he wants to and when he's not being stretched thin.
The Neptunes are the laziest production team out there and I agree that they are far overblown for no reason. Pharrell has let things out of the studio that are inexcusable by normal standards. He should just stick to his N*E*R*D* project where his output is best.
[b]Its easy to bust out the producers but why? Its not their fault for doing what they get paid to do. Everybody always seems to excuse the evil white males at the top of the pile for making it all happen and piss on the scapegoats. Its not Timb, Nept, JD, Rod's fault that the business is producer-based. Look at the names of the label heads. There's your problem. Why is everyone scared to point the finger where it belongs?[/b]

Its the video age. Ever since Teddy Riley came on the scene amd made it cool for the producer to be upfront, lots of producers have followed suit. There are some that stay out of the limelight like Scott Storch but since a lot of todays producers are the primary "beatmakers" (I hate that word), they also see themselves as artists. Like most artists, they want to be celebs within their own right. The role of a producer has changed greatly in recent years and covers a wide spectrum. From Puffy to Prince.
[Edited 9/27/06 8:34am]

There are enough evil black producers to be blamed too.

Great, could you be any more patronising?

Great, could you be any more patronising?

Mong said:

I could, but instead I could be more specific. Do you know who makes the decisions in a company? CEOs. NONE of the CEOs of the majors are black. Producers just make the records happen. They do tend to be the public's scapegoats as well as the artists when in actuality artists usually have very little power if any at all at a label these days. They can't even write their own songs without permission. Sometimes the product is already made. Do you know why Christina Milian got dropped from Def Jam (not a major label, by the way)? She passed on "S.O.S." and Rihanna dropped it and it was a hit. The song was already done and ready for her and she passed on it and they said "Do what we say or you're outta here" and that's what happened. Yet some of you condescending jokers sit on here and blame these people for making music they are told to make by the label heads, who were told what to tell them to make by their bosses - the label heads of their parent companies. When Edgar Bronfman says "I want all the R&B coming out this year to have an 80s flavor", that's how its gonna damn well be. Yet, you guys sit here and blame people who basically have no choice in what they do. You simply don't understand the business and its easier and more fun to bitch at Beyonce, Timbaland, Pharrell and whoever than it is to have some ACTUAL knowledge about who's truly at fault. Whatever.
Later for y'all.
Get your knowledge up.

BlaqueKnight said:

So true, but i think what people should also realize that the cause of this mainly is the soundscan era, not videos, not the 80's, soundscan. First of all the fact that people think this is an accurate way to base sales, WRONG, but if you check, its all labels care about, how many units can we move into stores. I dont think people realize how corrupt this system is, i did music retail for a long time, and worked with people who did buying from labels and trust me its not accurate. The first week number that you see for an artist is what the STORES buy, not the people, and trust me, Labels make the stores over order if they have a major new release, but they never tell you what the stores send back, just an example, the last R kelly, we sent back almost 90% of what the label sent us, and we were considered an "urban" store.
The issue with Christina Milian, there are alot of issues i took with this, mainly because it was made to look like Christina got dumped because she doesnt sell, not true, though she has never been a major seller, she got dumped because she made a choice, and also, this was more of Jay Z's call then we all realize, since Rihanna was his signing.
And as far as the real problem, sure it is the labels, its basically like selling crack now, however it appears this system is crashing as the crackheads are catching on, but do we really think we are going to see a change in the talent? The reason i say this is mainly just looking at the average consumer of music and the way they look at it, to quote a customer "Whats everyone buying" if you are picking music that way, then the problem will never change.
[Edited 9/27/06 11:21am]

Mong said:

I could, but instead I could be more specific. Do you know who makes the decisions in a company? CEOs. NONE of the CEOs of the majors are black. Producers just make the records happen. They do tend to be the public's scapegoats as well as the artists when in actuality artists usually have very little power if any at all at a label these days. They can't even write their own songs without permission. Sometimes the product is already made. Do you know why Christina Milian got dropped from Def Jam (not a major label, by the way)? She passed on "S.O.S." and Rihanna dropped it and it was a hit. The song was already done and ready for her and she passed on it and they said "Do what we say or you're outta here" and that's what happened. Yet some of you condescending jokers sit on here and blame these people for making music they are told to make by the label heads, who were told what to tell them to make by their bosses - the label heads of their parent companies. When Edgar Bronfman says "I want all the R&B coming out this year to have an 80s flavor", that's how its gonna damn well be. Yet, you guys sit here and blame people who basically have no choice in what they do. You simply don't understand the business and its easier and more fun to bitch at Beyonce, Timbaland, Pharrell and whoever than it is to have some ACTUAL knowledge about who's truly at fault. Whatever.
Later for y'all.
Get your knowledge up.

squiddyren said:

Regardless of the color of the producers, ITS THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP WHO ARE AT FAULT 100%. If you aren't smart enough to realize and acknowledge that then your opinion is worthless.
[Edited 9/26/06 19:13pm]

NDRU said:

The beats and basslines that they "create" are from machines,though.They don't actually pick up a bass guitar or some drumsticks and create the music from scratch,like a REAL PRODUCER can do.Also,most of these guys rely heavily on samples.

But yeah,you're right,alot of traditional producers don't actually play on the recordings that they produce.Quincy Jones is a prime example.

BlaqueKnight said:

Diddy. La Reid. Jay-Z. THese are black CEOs who are in charge of a lot of the music that finds its way to the airwaves. They are just as responsible as the "evil white males" because if they REALLY wanted to, they could break away from the labels they're associated with and still be very successful.

I don't think producers are as much the problem as just a sheer lack of talent. Like you said, the producers are just trying to get paid, and in a lot of cases, I wind up liking the hell out of a track of a song on the radio and go looking for more stuff by that same producer without really paying much attention to who's singing or rapping over it.

But in this day and age, major labels are dead. These artists have options, but they're much harder than sticking with the label and just doing what they tell you. Amerie is a good example of an artist who cares more about the music than the money, but unfortunately, she's in the minority. There are too many opportunistic artists out there today who care more about making money than making music, and THAT is part of the big problem.