Revolution said:

....except Elvis can't f*** with Prince on the guitar!


Now in dancing, I'll play good money to see that dream match.

jacktheimprovident said:

My pleasure

whoknows said:

No other artist at the time got as big an advance. Not - no black artist - rather, no other artist.

Yes they hoped to make the money back, as they did with all the artists they signed, most of whom disappeared into obscurity as still happens today. RCA already had a relationship with Colonel Parker, and Steve Sholes in particular believed in Elvis enough that the deal was made. RCA reportedly gave Sholes a year to recoup to keep his job. To help insure recoupment the deal included all of Elvis's Sun masters for a planned nationwide release.

Not personal to you but general comments:
That's the problem with tossing 'black' back at every issue involving Elvis Presley's career, as though the American music scene was comprised of 999 black singers and 1 white guy named Elvis found at a bus stop who was handed the keys to the kingdom just because he was sitting there in all his gleaming whiteness. That's just not what happened and the historical records bear that out.

The size of the advance doesn't mean nor prove they expected to make the money by having Elvis be a karaoke singer of "black music", nor that they expected him to be around for a lengthy period.

Regarding confusion about 'cover songs'. To cover a song in the perjorative sense was to deliberately record and release a single of a currently-charting or just-released or about-to-be-released single in order to keep it from charting or knock it off the charts: to deliberately take sales away from another artist, compete with a like release, confuse the public, attract the racist white consumers. That was the 'cover industry' that was lucrative, problematic, and heavily pandering to the racism of the day.

Elvis was not centered in that cover industry - not at Sun and not at RCA. His RCA recordings of popular r&b songs were of material he'd been including in his live act and were used as album filler and for extended plays and did not go head-to-head on the current singles charts or radio. Nor did his Sun recordings go up against like releases. And that has been known for 50 years now. Yet easily accessible facts about the most documented career in pop music are ignored in favor of invented tales making Elvis the big bad guy in a simplistic minstrel show plot.

His 1956 rock recording of Freddie Bell's rewritten 1955 jump version of "Hound Dog" was not designed to obscure Big Mama's 1953 r&b hit. Neither was his 1954 rockabilly version of "That's All Right" designed to obscure the already obscure 1946 blues of Arthur Crudup's "That's All Right". Otis Blackwell was a songwriter submitting his compositions to be recorded by other artists, not a performer left in the dust because Elvis selected "Don't Be Cruel" and "All Shook Up" from the demo stacks.

If black songwriter Otis Blackwell should get all the glory for "Don't Be Cruel", it seems fair then that white songwriters Leiber and Stoller should get all the glory for "Hound Dog" rather than the oft-cited Big Mama Thornton.


None of that is to say that Elvis didn't benefit from white privilege; he absolutely did (and whites do even today), and he benefited from live performances of current popular songs as do many local acts early in their careers today. And both due to racism and demographics it is improbable that any black artist, however excellent, could have been THE face of the early rock era.

Eileen

For interested Elvis fans who may not have heard (and sorry for snagging the thread for this but it seems a good spot) - there was a recent announcement of an historic upcoming Elvis 3 DVD set. For the first time in full, containing all performances including those previously unreleased, and using new video restoration technology: the complete Elvis on Ed Sullivan.



The full shows plus bonus footage and other features includes:

Appearance 1
"Don't Be Cruel"
"Love Me Tender"
"Ready Teddy"
"Hound Dog"

Appearance 2
"Don't Be Cruel"
"Love Me Tender"
"Love Me"
"Hound Dog"

Appearance 3
Medley - "Hound Dog,"
"Love Me Tender" &
"Heartbreak Hotel"
"Don't Be Cruel"
"Too Much"
"When My Blue Moon Turns to
Gold Again"
"Peace In The Valley"

Eileen
[Edited 9/17/06 22:57pm]

Eileen said:

This is all I've been saying from the start. Also, whether or not they thought he would last they certainly thought they could make a lot of money from him .I repeat, if you can give me an example of a black artist who they invested so much in, I'd be very interested to know. Since you agree his whiteness was a huge factor in his success, the difference seems to be one of emphasis.

This thread started wth the question "Is Elvis great?". My contention is that his status as "The King" is more a reflection of a racist and exploitative society than it is of how good Elvis is/was. If I compare his artistic achievements to say, Chuck Berry, there is simply no comparison. And, even more tragically, there were many great performers who neither you or I will ever hear of. Elvis wasn't a writer or an accomplished musician or even a particularly driven man. Circumstances swept him along. Had he been black the same opportunities wouldn't have manifested themselves and none of us would have heard of him, let alone be calling him "great". That's not to take anything away from him; he was a talented performer, but just a recognition of an injustice.

whoknows said:

Your excellent post should end the argument once and for all.

uPtoWnNY said:

Not likely. This topic's been beat to death - it will never die on prince.org or anywhere else.

TommyRoss said:

No doubt.
One CANNOT see the forrest if they are ROOTED in the trees.

Elvis the King of Rock and Roll? Yeah right, like Tarzan was the King of the Jungle, despite the fact that millions of Africans were more qualified.

FunkshaII said:

White folks r the Kings of everything they steal.

Graycap23 said:

shouldn't you be off making up some more "insider" news about Prince?

Tessa said:

Hummmm.....that the best u could come up with?

Reading this thread you would think that Elvis' career ended in 1958 and he only sang rock n roll. It's apparent that most people here don't know shit about Elvis. Props to the very few people who made good well thought out points based on fact.

age plays a big part when answering this question. I was just 7 when he died so I really didn't grow up with his stuff. As I got older besides growing up with 80's music (which I still love) I went back in time time to check out the beatles, little richard, and Elvis to name a few. Love his stuff!!!! If I was a teenager in the 1950's I would be a fan.

First, I have never really been interested in Elvis or his music, and always thought people going on about him being "The King" were just misguided "fanatics." Moreover, I don't really like Rock anyway so don't care.

But reading this thread, it does seem like his being called "the King" was a marketing ploy, kind of like Michal Jackson saying he's "The King of Pop", although apparently The Colonel came up wtih Elvis' moniker (so this thread says). In other words, it's just a stupid phrase, like when Kasey Casem woudl say "here's the latest SMASH HIT". according to whom?


I also don't quite get the "Stealing" thing. I understand Elvis did cover versions of songs Black artists did previously, but how did he get permission? I mean don't the song writers have to give permission, or at least get paid royalties?

Maybe i'm naive, and I know people were ripped off back then, but how were the song writers not compensated for their work?

Graycap23 said:

i've seen your work. you shouldn't cast stones as to what anyone else can "come up with."

Harlepolis said:

You must not be up on music history then. Even Chuck D changed his tune. You might as well too.

Spats said:

Save it for yourself, you might find it handy sometimes.

GaryMF said:

There are so many posts you probably missed mine - I'd corrected that guess, it was not a Parker ploy. The title stuck after being used in a Variety magazine article:

Eileen said:

Eileen

Three minutes of your time. Watch this, and you'll see, not only did Chuck Berry wipe the floor with Elvis as a writer and guitarist, but he was also a more inventive performer. Never did get the TV and film opportunities Elvis got though.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...PoOZYoFuRs

whoknows said:

What the hell? Nobody even thinks of Elvis as a writer or a guitarist so I don't know where you are going with that. He only wrote 2 songs and only really played rhythm guitar on stage and on wax.

However Elvis wipes the floor with Chuck as far as vocals, versatility, charisma, lasting power and long lasting relevance. As for stage performances, I wouldn't say Elvis wiped the floor with Chuck but he was clearly better IMO. In fact he was one of the best ever.

WildStyle said:

Merely emphasising the absurdity of Elvis being "The King", but I can see you've been brainwashed beyond all hope. btw, as a stage performer, though he was very good in the early years, Elvis wouldn't rank in the all time Top 20. Our man Prince for instance would send him home to his mother crying for a banana sandwich. That's not to mention MJ and James Brown.

Discussing Elvis on his own merits is what requires knowledge and thoughtfulness on this board. The tired "Elvis: Big Bad Racial Symbol!" TV Movie Of The Week plot points are where the knee-jerk brainwashed begin and end.

Eileen

Eileen said:

You're a fine one to talk about knee jerk reactions. Earlier you tried to suggest RCA didn't even expect him to be that big, then admitted they gave him the biggest advance in the history of the music business thus defeating your own argument. If you'd have thought about that first you wouldn't have made the argument in the first place.

whoknows said:

On the contrary, I did not "try to suggest". I gave several specific examples of the facts in evidence about what actually happened. My position is based on published statements and memos from the RCA staff who were involved in making the deal, published statements by others who worked directly with Elvis and RCA staff at that time, as well as listening in person to at least two of those people as they discussed those events.

Eileen