SoulScrybe said:

lilgish said:

Can you please tell me why not ASAP? I respect you essays.

'Pac was great, influential even. Greatest rapper hands down. His lyrics were just incredible. If you only know his so-called THUG stuff, you are missing out on alot. He was a young man when he wrote that stuff. As he matured, so did his lyrics. That's what got homie in trouble. America was able to deal with a rapper who spouted ghettocentric lyrics. When he turned to a more political mindset, D.C. got shook. Still, not the greatest MC. That would go to:

Supernatural
RedMan
KRS
Dougie Fresh
Pun
Melle Mel
Treach

Chuck D is, because he actually stands for something, other then thugging and banging the beaver.

SoulScrybe said:

I can't even agree with that. Personally, I find 2Pac's delivery absolutely hilarious at times. I still can't listen to "Hail Mary" without laughing at it. I'm sorry, but that shit is funny! The chorus is comical as all get out.

pfunkpilot said:

I'd submit to you that his lyrics were more mature at the beginning than the end of his career. He was going to be the West Coast's answer to KRS-ONE (to an extent, because he was an East Coast boy). Listen to 2PACALYPSE Now and Strictly for My N.I.G.G.A.Z. (Never Ignorant Getting Goals Accomplished). Then listen to the stuff that followed.

He had some undisputed classics after that point, but he created the monster that destroyed him. And that monster's name was Thug Life. It caused him to veer wildly from one extreme to the next, both on and off the mic.

You're not implying that feddy guv killed 'Pac, are you? Unless Uncle Sam is a nickname for Suge Knight, I'd disagree.

SoulScrybe said:

Here's where I disagree. Em is more than average. I'm not an Em fan, but I have to give him his for his skills. He's got some.

Ice-T's flow was stuck in '83, but he was a great storyteller, and had some good cuts after Rhyme Pays. I dug Power when it dropped, and I really liked Iceberg too (it was nice to hear Ice get political). O.G. was a good one. His rhyme style doesn't stand up well today, but for his time, he wasn't bad at all.

TonyVanDam said:

did i really becuz kurupt was easily one of the best MC's again, i am not swayed by what media tells me i listen with my ears.Tupac is a good MC but there are so many rappers who are just better than pac on the mike. easily, very easily

'Pac's murder is unsolved. I will leave the solving to the experts. 'Pac lead off his career with observations (Brenda got a baby, ect).I take my view of him maturing from later live stuff. Towards the end, there were some really incredible views coming from 'Pac. But,you are right. He got caught in too far and could not turn around the image he helped cultivate. You see him with that DeathRow money and you can see how it hooked him. The watches, cars. When he realized he was dancing with the devil, he really tried to turn it around. Obviously too late.

KingKrazy said:

Everyone's opinions are fair game. But Kurupt (as a solo rap artist) was never a big sell in the first place. Even Suge Knight knew better than than!

KingKrazy said:

Just push away from the mouse now.

namepeace said:

Em doesn't impress me. he's funny at times but he doesn't impress me.

And that last line about Ice is why I never paid him much respect. hell, even HE says his rhyme skills where pretty remedial, he was just gettin' paid off rappin'.

SoulScrybe said:

Yeah, none of those guys with that old school flow (Melle Mel, Run DMC, Ecstasy, Kool Moe Dee, Ice T) would be considered the greatest in my book. You've got to respect them though. It's like Dr. J when MJ came along. The doctor set the tone but MJ blew it up.

Hmmm I guess that means Rakim is the greatest. After Paid in Full dropped that was it. I mean as good as Big Daddy Kane, Cube, and (young) LL were even they had to be in awe of Rakim. There are guys that are better wordsmiths, had better stage shows and had better beats but if it were about just a man and the mic, Rakim is the best. He's got the voice (most importantly), the presence, and above average lyrics. Rarely was he off point. I mean BDK went LL for a minute and LL just took it to the extreme. He's so corny now it's embarassing... but I digress.

I should've mentioned Andre 3000 in there somewhere but I tend to think of him as part of a Duo like I do with Q-tip.

So after reading the posts on this thread, It's fair to say that we all got our own opinions on who is the greatest Rapper of all time. On a personal note, I'm glad that the following rappers were NEVER Mentioned. Geraldo, Will I Am, MC Hammer And Vanilla Ice.

SoulScrybe said:

Well, I guess in your world it belongs but not in mine. I guess you're not familiar with urban decay - I guess that's funny so a lot of rappers rapped about that just because it was funny. I guess racism is funny so rappers rapped about that. Black on Black crime is funny too right?

a). Not. What. I. Meant. b). Funnily enough, 2Pac was one of those rappers who glorified black on black crime. Shit, he even participated in some himself (or are you going to tell me he was "method acting" to get more subject matter for his rhymes). c). Racism isn't funny at all. I should know, I'm part black. But, you are completely missing the point here. I never said serious subjects shouldn't be addressed in music at all. I said humour belongs in music.


I guess you're not from L.A. because "groundbreaking" was NWA, NOT Ice T. Far from it. Ice T just rode the gangsta rap wave with the likes of Toddy T, King Tee, and others.

No, I'm not from LA. And neither was 2Pac. He made his best albums BEFORE he moved there from his retreat on Rikers Island. NWA were great. But Ice T's Rhyme Pays came out a full two years before Straight Outta Compton.

So you took one album that has those elements and make that Pac's entire legacy? You're not making any sense now.

I didn't. I also mentioned Makiavelli and his entire posthumous output. Everything up to All Eyez was great stuff. The LA period, though not without its highlights, was a very disappointing set of cliches - 2Pac as a Suge Knight/Death Row puppet and, ultimately, victim.


Tell you what: let's agree to disagree. You think 2Pac was the GOAT. I think he's one of about twenty. He was certainly way better and far more intelligent than the current crop of rappers, but that, unfortunately, isn't saying much. Read "Have Gun Will Travel", if you haven't already.
[Edited 9/6/06 23:09pm]

I'm not an expert in Old skool or rap,however it seemed I was the only one in my neighbourhood who appreciated rap music.
This was years before the radio-friendly R&B/rap wave,produced by Puffy or Timbaland,hit Europe.

I listened 2 Run DMC,Beastie Boys,LL Cool J and loved Ice-T's OG.
Then one of my fav albums came out;Doggystyle by Snoop.
In fact,I bought 2 Pac's All Eyes on my because I loved that album so much and I knew the magnificent Dr.Dre was the producer of both albums.
It's not easy 2 make a choice between Snoop and 2 Pac because Doggystyle is a classic.However,the follow-up Tha Doggfather was a dissapointment while 2 Pac's album was way better.Also all the stuff that got released after his dead was better than what Snoop released at Master P's label.
Snoop however,being alive,got the chance 2 make a great comeback with Dre on his Chronic 2000 album and his latest albums had some great tracks,Pharrel's involvement did help.

There is also Jay-Z,I just love the man's work,since Hard Knock Life Vol.2
I bought every album he put out.I don't know if it's because he is the best rapper or because his grooves and beats always sound so fresh and powerfull.

I see a lot off people here mention Rakim,I know his name but don't know his music,he is a bit unknown over here.And even if I would start 2 listen 2 him now,the memories I have linked 2 Snoop or 2 Pac's albums or 2 strong so that wouldn't be the same.

I think 2 Pac is the GOAT of those who saddly passed away!
Snoop and Jay-Z are still in the running...
[Edited 9/7/06 0:07am]
[Edited 9/7/06 0:09am]

TonyVanDam said:

YES RAKIM IS THE GREATEST M.C. OF ALL TIME !!!! NO ONE CAN GET WITH RAK!!!!
NONE!!

AGNTHVC said:

Hell YES.

No question, no doubt.

Peace.

G.

...and if anyone needs 2 be schooled on Rakim, just play 2 tracks: "Microphone Fiend" and "The Ghetto"...

Worth mentioning this cat .

Biography ( by Michael Di Bella )


With a second-place finish (behind Midwest rapper Supernatural) in the freestyle competition at the nation's most prestigious MC seminar in 1995, this aptly named Virginia native demonstrated his limitless verbal potential. The first salvo fired from Skillz was the single "The Nod Factor" of which a lengthy stanza appeared as a memorable Hip Hop Quotable in The Source Magazine. Skillz reigned supreme with his brand of harshly wicked witticisms, uncorking the type of sinister rhymes that would make a freestyle foe hang his head in shame. The consummate lyricist, Skillz mastered the unique art of double-entendre with rhymes like: "put your clothes on backwards if you feel like frontin'." The lampooning onslaught came to a head with Skillz' debut in 1996, From Where??, which called attention to the virtually untapped talent within his home state. The album featured a few gems on production from Large Professor and Buckwild and a guest appearance from Q-Tip on "Extra Abstract Skillz." Many heads were checking for this album although the same heads also clamored for more decisive production that would match the Madd one's singular lyrical gift. Madd Skillz reappeared in 1999 on Rawkus' Soundbombing, Vol. 2 on "B-Boy Document" which also featured Mos Def. In 2000, he released his own single on Rawkus, "Ghost Writer" produced by fellow Virginian Timabaland.

http://www.allmusic.com/c...4sbtv3z~T1

Some noteworthy runner-ups :


Big Boi



Ghostface Killah



Meth

Giovanni777 said:

AND DONT EVER FORGET ----- LYRICS OF FURY!!!

that song made me write a tribute flow to that cut!!
" how do i plead to homicide? LYRICS OF FURY!!"

Yall sleeping on Paris, Immortal technic, and Krs-one?
[Edited 9/7/06 7:43am]

Graycap23 said:

The black panther of rap





.
.
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[Edited 9/7/06 8:08am]

Graycap23 said:

KRS-One got some votes early on.

100MPH said:

Can't get with either one of those as GOAT candidates. Legendary MCs, yeah, but Big Boi is nice, not great. Meth is, to me, overrated, and gets over more on his voice and delivery. Ghostface is miles ahead of Meth.

2PacMe Against the World [Interscope, 1995]
Tough-guy sentimentality is an old story in American culture, but self-pity this rank is usually reserved for teen romances and tales of brave avant-gardists callously rejected by the mass media. His I-love-Mom rings true because Mom was no saint, and his respect for old G's seems genuine, probably because they told him how smart he was. But whether the metaphor be dead homies or suicide threat, the subtext of his persecution complex is his self-regard. What's doubly galling is that these are essential hip hop themes--as Ice Cube and B.I.G. have made all too vivid, it is persecution that induces young black men to kill each other and themselves. That such themes should rise to the top of the charts with this witless exponent of famous-for-being-famous is why pop fans decry the mass media. C+

Robert Christgau.

sextonseven said:

Paris is a great MC, love his flow and content, but I couldn't say he's one of the GOAT.

namepeace said:

I dig it. It's hard 2 say who is the best. 4 my $, I'll go with KRS-one.