AlexdeParis said:

Production wise yes. If you hear it played publicly around non MJ fans you'll hear what I mean.

Dangerous is half a good album, half a shit one.

PurpleRighteous1 said:

thats what it is...its all blah and boring...and Blame It On the Boogie is really embarassing for me when I listen to it...I used to love the song as a kid but as an adult i wince at it.

the only saving grace on that beast is "Shake Your Body To The Ground".

whatsgoingon said:

That was when he came into his own as a songwriter and singer. Four great albums in a row. Then Thriller became a phenomenon and fucked it all up. Quincy Jones has spoken openly about this. When you're dealing with numbers like that it can psychologically paralyse you. Suddenly Michael became cautious and it was all over. That's why Quincy arranged a meeting between Michael and Prince. Because he wanted to shake Michael out of his paralysis. There were still great songs to come but never so many great ones in such a short space of time.

Producers who are not performers never get the real credit, so why are people trippin' on the great Chicagoan, Quincy Jones? Quincy didn't say glorify me. His bank account glorifies him.

When people first heard "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" it was Michael they praised on the dance floor and in their living rooms, not Quincy.

Young people just know the artists, they don't study the history of music or the people behind the music that create to make artists superstars.

Quincy took Michael Jackson to the next level as a solo artist. Before that, Michael was in the best teen idol group in the 70s, The Jackson Five.

"Off The Wall" made MJ a solo star. "Thriller" immortalized him in music history. Fortunately, both albums were produced by Quincy Jones, I don't think Quincy when I hear these two albums. All I think and see is Michael Joseph Jackson... one hell of a stage performer!

All these gaht dang posts and nobody’s had the balls (or sense) enuff to answer the question honestly.

PRINCE!!

While Michael truly was the ish back then along came Prince, the polar opposite of MJ, and became a superstar. Naturally the comparisons would begin and the age old question of “Who’s bad(der)” would commence and the debate of musicianship and songwriting would slug it out round after round. For Michael to have any weight in this particular aspect of the debate Q’s role would have to be dimished to “just the producer who didn’t really do anything. MJ was good and is good without him”

This attempts to boost Michael to Prince’s level of musicianship and songwriting (yeah, mofo, I said it) are blinding folks to the fact the Q, as the “producer who didn’t really do anything” not only held the responsibility that the songs that make up these great albums would do, but played a major role in the arrangements of these songs (that’s outlining note for note what gets played or sung) and made Mike a better singer and thus a better solo artist by assigning him to Seth Riggs.

I basically love everything Mike has done, with Bobby Taylor, The Corporation, Hal Davis, Freddie Perren, Mel Larson, Jerry Marcellino, Holland, Dozier & Holland, Sam Brown, Gamble and Huff, McFadden and Whitehead, Dexter Wansel, Quincy Jones, Teddy Riley, Bill Bottrell, Glen Ballard, Jam and Lewis, Dallas Austin, R. Kelly, David Foster, Rodney Jerkins, and Andre Harris.

Long ass list, but Q gets the most mention indeed.

incognito said:

Exactly, when I listen to OTW I am not thinking Quincy Jones. I am thinking this is Michael at his best...but at the same time I can acknowledge that a good producer can take an artist up to another level even if they were the best in the first place and I think as a solo artist this is what Quincy did with Michael. They fitted like a glove.

Adisa said:

Don't agree with everything in there, but it's certainly true that Quincy understood the importance of finding and selecting the best songs. That kind of quality control went out the window when Michael left him. Also, one thing which harmed Michael on Bad was that the balance of power on that album had swung in his favour so much that he was able to overrule Quincy on key decisions. Hence the dated production sound on Bad as Michael insisted on using all the latest sounds of the moment. Contrast that with Quincy's 89 album Back On The Block and you'll hear the difference in sound quality.
Then Michael started working with all the latest producers on Dangerous and you got crap like I Can't Let Her Get Away and She Drives Me Wild. Songs that Quincy would have kicked to the curb without a second thought. Also, the productions were never as layered again as Michael followed trends rather than leading them.

whoknows said:

I hear what you're saying, but I think they share equal blame for Bad being so dismal. Q arranged just as much as that lp as he did the other two. In actuality, it was time for them to go in a newer direction sonically, which they did. They just didn't quite pull it off. it was like they were both trying too hard, consciously or unconsciously.

whoknows said:

Agree again. All those sappy songs like "childhood" and "Lost children" Quincy would have not allowed any of that stuff on an album he was producing. He also knew what suited Michael's voice. For instance "I can't Help it" which has a jazzy feel to it suits Michael's voice to the T. I do believe if Quincy and Michael were still together they could have done a Jazz album together.

Adisa said:

Woah woah pump your brakes famo. You cannot be serious to think mj fans were thinking of prince when discussing this matter i mean get over yourself seriously. Mj fans dont think about prince, the way prince fans think about mj.There are no attempts to boost mj up to princes level, thats very biased to think so. As far as songwriting goes;i mean mj and prince are completely different both in their personalities and the way they express their talents.

And you say "q is the producer who didnt do anything" Nobody feels that way people just act like he made mj when that isnt true. Quincy and mjs relationship was like a musical marriage, in the end mj has complete control over every nook and craney that goes on the album for you to say quincy was the only one responsible for choosing what songs would go on the album is stupid.

Michael composes or writes a huge bulk of his material anyway and has shown clear talent in doing that way before quincy was on the scene. The exaggeration of quincys input comes from the jealousy of the success mj has shared during that partnership-Its the feeling of "It just has to be something else to make him so big" No its his god given talent

The bad album was crazy: TWYMMF, Liberian Girl, Man in the mirror, dirt diana, smooth criminal, Another part of me, I just cant stop loving you. Get outta here with that i can see yall way more lenient on prince albums
[Edited 8/9/06 21:06pm]

whoknows said:

If those songs are crap, I've been misusing the word for years. I thought it meant something bad.

whoknows said:

So the production changes based on who is listening to it? Sorry, but I don't follow.


I completely disagree. I love all of the Teddy Riley songs. The other side has great stuff like "Keep the Faith," "Who Is It," and "Will You Be There."

AlexdeParis said:[quote]

whoknows said:

I love the Give In To Me, Who Is It, Will You Be There side of Dangerous more than the Remember the Time, She Drives Me Wild, Can't Let Her Get Away siod of the the album. Give In To Me is the shit!

yusuzuki said:

MJ writes a bulk of his songs, but NOT everything he writes is wonderful. He writes a lot of sap as well as the Billie-Jeans and Don't Stop Till You Get Enoughs. There are many gems on his records that he didn't write but were written and selected for him i.e Rock With You, Human Nature, Lady in My Life, Man in The Mirror etc, these songs were penned by others, but were made classic by MJ. It's not just the hits on an album that make an album a classic, it's the other songs as well and that's where a good producer comes in.

On Off The Wall and Thriller especially Quincy nailed it. He could have said every single song that went on those albums could have been self-penned songs by Michael, but then we wouldn't of heard precious gems like "I can't Help it", "Rock with You", "Human Nature", "Lady in My Life". These songs define those albums just as much "Don't Stop" and "Billie Jean".
[Edited 8/10/06 2:26am]

AlexdeParis said:[quote]

whoknows said:

If you've ever listened to music outside your house you should know that you hear songs in different ways when you hear them in different contexts. That's a pretty straight forward concept.
Keep The Faith was a typical attempt by Michael to try and recreate something that worked in the past. In this case Man In The Mirror. The difference is Man In The Mirror is good all the way through, whereas Keep The Faith only gets good in the last two minutes when he starts singing counterlines over the choir.

yusuzuki said:

On Off The Wall Michael only wrote 2 and a half songs. It was Quincy who went out and found the other 8 songs, and Quincy who brought Rod Temperton into the equation. On Thriller Michael wrote 4 songs. It was Quincy who went hunting for the other 5 tunes. And by the way if you think folks here are more lenient on Prince albums then you've obviously never spent much time on the Prince forum. You defenders of post Quincy MJ also have another difficult issue to try and dodge. How comes I still regularly hear Billie Jean and Don't Stop Till You Get Enough blasting out of car stereos and yet I never hear anyone playing anything post Thriller?

DarlingDiana said:

I think that's a polite way of saying you agree with me!

whoknows said:

I am more likely to hear J5 songs than anything post-Thriller, outside my home. Infact the songs that I am most likely to hear are the classics from Michael's most productive period between 78 to 82, i.e songs from Destiny, Truimph, OTW and Thriller...

yusuzuki said:

Hardly

As a heart attack

This thread isn’t about me. Nobody’s talking about me but yo sorry ass, kid.

Since you don’t know shit about me, I’ll enlighten you a little and say I’m a die-hard life-long fan of both. Now who’s being biased?

Thanks. I had no idea. I thought all Black men wrote the same type of songs.


I never said I agreed with any of it, Poindexter. I’m just pointing out the bases of the argument including its holes.





Who’s jealous? Really, who was jealous of Michael’s success to the point where they deified Quincy Jones?



You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

whoknows said:

It's a 15-year-old album. I've heard it in about every context I'm going to hear it.


That's where it gets great. It's good from the start. With the exception of the generic-sounding "Gone Too Soon," that's a great group of songs. Dangerous is one of the best albums of the '90s IMO.

AlexdeParis said:[quote]

whoknows said:

Who's asking about the places you've heard it? You asked me how someone could hear it differently in different places. I gave you your answer.

AlexdeParis said:[quote]

whoknows said:

Dnagerous shows that Michael still had the potential to do great things. But with no one else in overall charge of the record, it suffers from inconsistency. There are many moments of pure genius. But there's also some half assed, boring, repetitive shit in there, particularly on the first half. No one really liked it when it came out, although I'm sure you and the other fanatics were crazy about it.

whoknows said:

Except (1) clearly a lot of people liked it and (2) I'm not a "fanatic." It's amusing how someone with a different opinion is labeled a "fanatic." Anyway, I love that album because I love New Jack Swing. It works for me and that's what matters.

whoknows said:[quote]

AlexdeParis said:

You said, "Production wise yes. If you hear it played publicly around non MJ fans you'll hear what I mean." I still don't understand how I'm supposed to hear that "They Don't Care About Us" sounds "awful" just by listening to it with different people. If you can try explaining again without being insulting, I'd love to hear it.

Adisa said:

most young mj fans don't even know who prince is. i know i never used to before i found this site.

hellomoto said:

Well that's different. Young MJ fans dismiss Q because they don't know any better...I guess.
[Edited 8/10/06 20:08pm]

Quincey and MJ were a good balance. If you listen to Mikes demos, you can't underestimate Mikes contribution to those classics either, all the elements are there.

I think Quincey's best contribution to the albums since "bad" had he been involved would be in arrangement and picking out the best selection of songs for the album.

I'm sure MJ's vault is awesome and had Quincey been involved in song selection for Dangerous, History and Invincible they would probably be MJ's best 3 albums instead of 2 good ones and 1 fairly good one.

Peace

AlexdeParis said:

You said "It's a 15 year old album". Since TDCAU is clearly not that old maybe you can explain that to me. Anyway, the point was that the beats on History in general are lame. I didn't mention TDCAU specifically as an example of that. I actually mentioned it as a song I liked, but rather than deal with the main point you've tried to change the focus onto small details. I notice you've made no attempt to refute the serious points made about post Quincy MJ elsewhere in this thread. Let's not ignore the broader point by focusing on pedantic issues.

whoknows said:

It's called a mistake. You responded to comments about both TDCAU and Dangerous, which led to the confusion.


You said that you loved it, but it sounded "awful." I responded to that because it doesn't make any sense to me. As far as History goes, I don't think the beats are the problem. A few of the songs just don't work for me, but it's pretty good other than that.


Maybe I don't think those points need to be refuted? As usual, people like to argue the extremes. My favorite MJ albums are Thriller, Dangerous, and Off the Wall. Was he a better solo artist with Q? Yep. Did he still make a lot of great music without him? Yep. Quincy Jones deserves a lot of credit for making Michael the biggest star on the planet, but anyone who saw little Michael back in the J5 knew he was destined for superstardom. He managed to make superior (IMO) covers of songs by greats like Sly, Smokey, and Stevie (my all-time favorite). That would be utterly ridiculous even if he weren't a little kid.
[Edited 8/11/06 5:08am]

I think the main thing about others producers that have worked with MJ is they allow alot of hit and miss stuff on his albums, as well as the good stuff. The best album ever made is going to have one or two cheesy/corny songs, but on the likes of Dangerous yes we have "Remember the Time", "In the closet" but then we have the sap of "Heal the World", o.k it went to Nr1, but so did the "Bob the Builder" and the "Crazy frog" songs. as well as "Gone too soon" etc.

On History we have songs like "Earth Song", "childhood" and "smile".

On Vince we have "The lost children". I mean these songs make the "Girl is mine" and "Girlfriend" from Thriller and OTW, which many people think are quite cheesy seem like hard-core funk..

Without Quincy Michael albums have definetly become more "disneyfied" as well as more dis-jointed.
[Edited 8/11/06 21:14pm]