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PrintableCOMPUTERBLUE1984 said:[quote] Elvis is a monolith in American media, therefore his being a "king" is not something I readily accept. Sure he's sold hundreds of millions of albums, but he is not the father of Rock & Roll. He is its greatest pimp, taking a sound that was well developed, yet under promoted by black artists(various social factors) in the late 40's/50's and making it a viable commercial tool.
[quote] Just to interject here 
But ...folks,... Elvis never ripped off or pimped black culture or black music at all. This is an unbalanced reactionary fable based on resentment at an unbalanced and racist system in our society. First off, Elvis never referred to himself as the King of Rock and Roll, in fact he hated the title. Nor did he ever refrain from publicly acknowledging his African-american influences. This distorted view of Elvis as a concious and deliberate exploiter of Black music has more to do with the folks misplaced resentment that should be towards the system and society itself. Not on Elvis. The true and balanced view is that Elvis was indeed a HUGE innovator whose influences were far from being soely relegated to "black" music. First off,...the TRUTH is that he was never really Rock and Roll at all. He was Rockabilly. Rockabilly was a distinct musical form, with its hiccuping vocals, finger popping country style guitars, and clikity clak bass.... that sounded NOTHING whatsoever like black R&B. And he was essentially the first artist to invent and present that form of music. Which is a hybrid of blues and country and bluegrass. If you listen to Elvis's voice carefully you will also hear the mark of of his greatest vocal influence,....Dean Martin. Another point is that,...there is another misconception that because Elvis had great rythm that he must have gotten that from black folks (which is a bit ignorant). But no performers from that time ever did the same moves as Elvis. Not James , not Richard, Not Chuck, not Billy, etc, etc. The stop and go moves , the shoulder shaking, the freezing on his toes (michael anyone  ), the sexual convulsion-like beat reactions...that stuff was pure Elvis.
No performer,... black , white, brown , yellow or green , ...moved like that. Except maybe ....strippers,...whom he was most often compared to back in the 50's. Anyway, i could go on,..but suffice it to say,..knock the f'd up racist system, not an artist like Elvis. You wanna talk about a real pimp and thief...think of Pat Boone!! 
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COMPUTERBLUE1984 said: I haven't seen Natahnial Dayspring in about a decade (???)(when I last collected the comics).
He's dead. (Or, more accurately, his essence was dispersed across the planet... or some crap.) "Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis | |
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People are saying how rock'n'roll is a black music form, which isnt entirely correct, it's actually an american form of music. although it was formed by black people, they couldn't have created this type of music without europeans and their music and instruments. they created the music from a mixture of traditional african music and traditional european music like folk music. rock'n'roll doesn't sound like traditional african music, you cant deny the infuence of white people in the genre. | |
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funkpill said: jn2 said: hum maybe.
The Beatles aren't in the same league as P-Funk. I know  they were great writers and took the music world by storm
and blah blah blah blah blah blah
Remember George stating that Smokey, Sly, & The Beatles were his favorite songwriters. But Smokey was his all time favorite.. Sly made him rethink music. Preach!!! I like the Beatles, but compared to the likes of P-Funk, Sly, Stevie, Miles, Coltrane!? That's a fucking joke. | |
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namepeace said: Well, as I see it, we're talking about 2 problems: one is historic and one is systemic.
When it comes to rock music, society are historically challenged. The Muddy Waters, Robert Johnsons, Little Richards, Chuck Berrys and Bo Diddleys of the world were denied commercial success because their music was categorized as "race music" or worse. Once more palatable -- white -- faces were used to sell the music, the Elvises, Buddy Hollys, etc. enjoyed monster success. Black artists were later recognized, but many of those early legends were marginalized such that rock and roll is associated solely with white people, and to this day, Jimi Hendrix might be the lone exception. But black people invented rock and roll. Now, as far as the R&B/soul artists are concerned, I would say that Aretha, Stevie, the Temps, Smokey Robinson, Ray Charles, and so many others can't ever get enough praise, but they have largely been hailed as legends in their own right. Today's problem is systemic. Not even black people buy records from black musicians. Hip-hop has a grittier image and it's cheaper to produce. We're so removed from our musical roots that we don't appreciate our own music anymore, except as a resource to cut the next hot sample. Stevie couldn't get arrested in Detroit if he were starting out today. Ditto for Sly Stone, Jimi and dare I say that skinny little sucker with the high voice.  | |
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namepeace said: Well, as I see it, we're talking about 2 problems: one is historic and one is systemic.
When it comes to rock music, society are historically challenged. The Muddy Waters, Robert Johnsons, Little Richards, Chuck Berrys and Bo Diddleys of the world were denied commercial success because their music was categorized as "race music" or worse. Once more palatable -- white -- faces were used to sell the music, the Elvises, Buddy Hollys, etc. enjoyed monster success. Black artists were later recognized, but many of those early legends were marginalized such that rock and roll is associated solely with white people, and to this day, Jimi Hendrix might be the lone exception. But black people invented rock and roll. Now, as far as the R&B/soul artists are concerned, I would say that Aretha, Stevie, the Temps, Smokey Robinson, Ray Charles, and so many others can't ever get enough praise, but they have largely been hailed as legends in their own right. Today's problem is systemic. Not even black people buy records from black musicians. Hip-hop has a grittier image and it's cheaper to produce. We're so removed from our musical roots that we don't appreciate our own music anymore, except as a resource to cut the next hot sample. Stevie couldn't get arrested in Detroit if he were starting out today. Ditto for Sly Stone, Jimi and dare I say that skinny little sucker with the high voice.  | |
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sexyfunkystrange said:[quote]COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:[quote] Elvis is a monolith in American media, therefore his being a "king" is not something I readily accept. Sure he's sold hundreds of millions of albums, but he is not the father of Rock & Roll. He is its greatest pimp, taking a sound that was well developed, yet under promoted by black artists(various social factors) in the late 40's/50's and making it a viable commercial tool.
Just to interject here
But ...folks,... Elvis never ripped off or pimped black culture or black music at all. This is an unbalanced reactionary fable based on resentment at an unbalanced and racist system in our society. First off, Elvis never referred to himself as the King of Rock and Roll, in fact he hated the title. Nor did he ever refrain from publicly acknowledging his African-american influences. This distorted view of Elvis as a concious and deliberate exploiter of Black music has more to do with the folks misplaced resentment that should be towards the system and society itself. Not on Elvis. The true and balanced view is that Elvis was indeed a HUGE innovator whose influences were far from being soely relegated to "black" music. First off,...the TRUTH is that he was never really Rock and Roll at all. He was Rockabilly. Rockabilly was a distinct musical form, with its hiccuping vocals, finger popping country style guitars, and clikity clak bass.... that sounded NOTHING whatsoever like black R&B. And he was essentially the first artist to invent and present that form of music. Which is a hybrid of blues and country and bluegrass. If you listen to Elvis's voice carefully you will also hear the mark of of his greatest vocal influence,....Dean Martin. Another point is that,...there is another misconception that because Elvis had great rythm that he must have gotten that from black folks (which is a bit ignorant). But no performers from that time ever did the same moves as Elvis. Not James , not Richard, Not Chuck, not Billy, etc, etc. The stop and go moves , the shoulder shaking, the freezing on his toes (michael anyone ), the sexual convulsion-like beat reactions...that stuff was pure Elvis.
No performer,... black , white, brown , yellow or green , ...moved like that. Except maybe ....strippers,...whom he was most often compared to back in the 50's. Anyway, i could go on,..but suffice it to say,..knock the f'd up racist system, not an artist like Elvis. You wanna talk about a real pimp and thief...think of Pat Boone!!
. Excellent points. I like some of his work. I guess what I am uncomfortable with is the whole "King" thing. That is a media creation/something conjured up by his fans. Unfortunately, social aspects of the time have morphed into resentment over alot of the music done by him at the time. Unfortunately with something as beautiful as the arts, in this case music, race rears its ugly head far too often (because of the sins of society) to truly appreciate what each artist has contributed to the larger overall pic in the creation and continued existence of rock. BTW: You are right about Pat Boone "Old man's gotta be the old man. Fish has got to be the fish." | |
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hellomoto said: People are saying how rock'n'roll is a black music form, which isnt entirely correct, it's actually an american form of music. although it was formed by black people, they couldn't have created this type of music without europeans and their music and instruments. they created the music from a mixture of traditional african music and traditional european music like folk music. rock'n'roll doesn't sound like traditional african music, you cant deny the infuence of white people in the genre.
no one has denied white ppl in any way. If anything black ppl have been denied their impact and influence on Rock n roll and that's what this thread is about. | |
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COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:[quote]sexyfunkystrange said:[quote] COMPUTERBLUE1984 said: Elvis is a monolith in American media, therefore his being a "king" is not something I readily accept. Sure he's sold hundreds of millions of albums, but he is not the father of Rock & Roll. He is its greatest pimp, taking a sound that was well developed, yet under promoted by black artists(various social factors) in the late 40's/50's and making it a viable commercial tool.
Just to interject here
But ...folks,... Elvis never ripped off or pimped black culture or black music at all. This is an unbalanced reactionary fable based on resentment at an unbalanced and racist system in our society. First off, Elvis never referred to himself as the King of Rock and Roll, in fact he hated the title. Nor did he ever refrain from publicly acknowledging his African-american influences. This distorted view of Elvis as a concious and deliberate exploiter of Black music has more to do with the folks misplaced resentment that should be towards the system and society itself. Not on Elvis. The true and balanced view is that Elvis was indeed a HUGE innovator whose influences were far from being soely relegated to "black" music. First off,...the TRUTH is that he was never really Rock and Roll at all. He was Rockabilly. Rockabilly was a distinct musical form, with its hiccuping vocals, finger popping country style guitars, and clikity clak bass.... that sounded NOTHING whatsoever like black R&B. And he was essentially the first artist to invent and present that form of music. Which is a hybrid of blues and country and bluegrass. If you listen to Elvis's voice carefully you will also hear the mark of of his greatest vocal influence,....Dean Martin. Another point is that,...there is another misconception that because Elvis had great rythm that he must have gotten that from black folks (which is a bit ignorant). But no performers from that time ever did the same moves as Elvis. Not James , not Richard, Not Chuck, not Billy, etc, etc. The stop and go moves , the shoulder shaking, the freezing on his toes (michael anyone ), the sexual convulsion-like beat reactions...that stuff was pure Elvis.
No performer,... black , white, brown , yellow or green , ...moved like that. Except maybe ....strippers,...whom he was most often compared to back in the 50's. Anyway, i could go on,..but suffice it to say,..knock the f'd up racist system, not an artist like Elvis. You wanna talk about a real pimp and thief...think of Pat Boone!!
. Excellent points. I like some of his work. I guess what I am uncomfortable with is the whole "King" thing. That is a media creation/something conjured up by his fans. Unfortunately, social aspects of the time have morphed into resentment over alot of the music done by him at the time. Unfortunately with something as beautiful as the arts, in this case music, race rears its ugly head far too often (because of the sins of society) to truly appreciate what each artist has contributed to the larger overall pic in the creation and continued existence of rock. BTW: You are right about Pat Boone Elvis had a very unique sound, there is no doubt about that. He had a brilliant voice and a lot of stage presence, I am not denying his talent and his contribution to music. But so did Marvin Gaye and Sam Cook have avery unique sounds and they too bought something completely different to music but they don't get a fraction of the acknowledgement that Elvis gets. Then we have Madonna-the original Spice girl- people go on about her using her sexuality and being in control, well has anyone heard of Millie Jackson? She was doing that well before Madonna came onto the scene, and she had a better voice too. Yet Madonna is getting more props than people with real, raw talent like Aretha. Now, I am know there are a lot of very average black artists out there too, but name me one of them that has got so far and had so much longevity on the type of average talent that Madonna has...? | |
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whatsgoingon said: Now, I am know there are a lot of very average black artists out there too, but name me one of them that has got so far and had so much longevity on the type of average talent that Madonna has...?
Oh, you just walked into that one, didn't you?  "Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis | |
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AlexdeParis said: whatsgoingon said: Now, I am know there are a lot of very average black artists out there too, but name me one of them that has got so far and had so much longevity on the type of average talent that Madonna has...?
Oh, you just walked into that one, didn't you? I don't care, I would like to know a black artist who has such average talent who is seen as some kind of Icon in the same way Madonna is? Some people can put Janet Jackson there, but we all know that Janet is a special case, due to her family background, and inspite of all thatm she still isn't given the iconic status that Madonna has. [Edited 8/4/06 3:23am] | |
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sexyfunkystrange said: a lot of stuff about Elvis.
I suggest you re-examine your MISUAGE of the word "racist" as it it rivals the Germans calling Jews anti-semitic. Its amazing how comfortable white Americans have become with calling others racists with the rich history of indulgence that Euro-Americans have in it. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term "bigot", as it more accurately describes what you are attempting to proclaim. How accurate you are is also at question, but I digress. In order to believe that Elvis did not steal from black people, I would first have to believe that Elvis did not spend every waking opportunity on Beale Street when he was younger. Then I would have to believe that Beale Street is not the gentrified, cultureless politically correct tourist trap that it is now as opposed to the 95% black hotbed of music that it was in Elvis's day. You need only venture back as far as the 80s to know this was the case. I would also have to believe that Elvis was not affected by any of the artists he saw. Sorry, that's too much believing for me. As for your assessment of Elvis's movements, maybe nobody "white" moved like Elvis.... 
While I don't think Elvis was a racist himself (just a poor dumb f*ck who did what he was told by a true racist, Col. Parker), I do believe that there was a lot of pretending and ignoring going on to make Elvis the "King of Rock" that he's been labeled. In truth Elvis could no more proclaim himself the "King of Rock" than Michael Jackson could proclaim himself the "King of Pop". The media creates these labels just like they create headlines to catch your attention. No artist could successfully campaign such a term without ever saying it themselves. Its funny how Mtv tried to say that MJ started the whole "King of Pop" thing when it was a term used by every paper and television that showed him. People always distort things when viewing in retrospect. If he had not been in trouble, they would still be calling him the king of pop without the "self-proclaimed" qualifying statement that is always so slyly mentioned beforehand but again, I digress. According to you, Elvis was "rockbilly" so the use of "King of Rock and Roll" must also be a falsehood? Again, I am left to do more pretending. Let me wrap this up by reitterating RhondaB's statement "no one has denied white ppl in any way. If anything black ppl have been denied their impact and influence on Rock n roll and that's what this thread is about." [Edited 8/1/06 9:41am] | |
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BK just quoted me!! OMG!!  | |
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BlaqueKnight said: sexyfunkystrange said: a lot of stuff about Elvis.
I suggest you re-examine your MISUAGE of the word "racist" as it it rivals the Germans calling Jews anti-semitic. Its amazing how comfortable white Americans have become with calling others racists with the rich history of indulgence that Euro-Americans have in it. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term "bigot", as it more accurately describes what you are attempting to proclaim. How accurate you are is also at question, but I digress. In order to believe that Elvis did not steal from black people, I would first have to believe that Elvis did not spend every waking opportunity on Beale Street when he was younger. Then I would have to believe that Beale Street is not the gentrified, cultureless politically correct tourist trap that it is now as opposed to the 95% black hotbed of music that it was in Elvis's day. You need only venture back as far as the 80s to know this was the case. I would also have to believe that Elvis was not affected by any of the artists he saw. Sorry, that's too much believing for me. As for your assessment of Elvis's movements, maybe nobody "white" moved like Elvis....
While I don't think Elvis was a racist himself (just a poor dumb f*ck who did what he was told by a true racist, Col. Parker), I do believe that there was a lot of pretending and ignoring going on to make Elvis the "King of Rock" that he's been labeled. In truth Elvis could no more proclaim himself the "King of Rock" than Michael Jackson could proclaim himself the "King of Pop". The media creates these labels just like they create headlines to catch your attention. No artist could successfully campaign such a term without ever saying it themselves. Its funny how Mtv tried to say that MJ started the whole "King of Pop" thing when it was a term used by every paper and television that showed him. People always distort things when viewing in retrospect. If he had not been in trouble, they would still be calling him the king of pop without the "self-proclaimed" qualifying statement that is always so slyly mentioned beforehand but again, I digress. According to you, Elvis was "rockbilly" so the use of "King of Rock and Roll" must also be a falsehood? Again, I am left to do more pretending. Let me wrap this up by reitterating RhondaB's statement "no one has denied white ppl in any way. If anything black ppl have been denied their impact and influence on Rock n roll and that's what this thread is about." [Edited 8/1/06 9:41am] As usual.....WELL said. | |
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BlaqueKnight said: sexyfunkystrange said: a lot of stuff about Elvis.
I suggest you re-examine your MISUAGE of the word "racist" as it it rivals the Germans calling Jews anti-semitic. Its amazing how comfortable white Americans have become with calling others racists with the rich history of indulgence that Euro-Americans have in it. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term "bigot", as it more accurately describes what you are attempting to proclaim. How accurate you are is also at question, but I digress. In order to believe that Elvis did not steal from black people, I would first have to believe that Elvis did not spend every waking opportunity on Beale Street when he was younger. Then I would have to believe that Beale Street is not the gentrified, cultureless politically correct tourist trap that it is now as opposed to the 95% black hotbed of music that it was in Elvis's day. You need only venture back as far as the 80s to know this was the case. I would also have to believe that Elvis was not affected by any of the artists he saw. Sorry, that's too much believing for me. As for your assessment of Elvis's movements, maybe nobody "white" moved like Elvis....
While I don't think Elvis was a racist himself (just a poor dumb f*ck who did what he was told by a true racist, Col. Parker), I do believe that there was a lot of pretending and ignoring going on to make Elvis the "King of Rock" that he's been labeled. In truth Elvis could no more proclaim himself the "King of Rock" than Michael Jackson could proclaim himself the "King of Pop". The media creates these labels just like they create headlines to catch your attention. No artist could successfully campaign such a term without ever saying it themselves. Its funny how Mtv tried to say that MJ started the whole "King of Pop" thing when it was a term used by every paper and television that showed him. People always distort things when viewing in retrospect. If he had not been in trouble, they would still be calling him the king of pop without the "self-proclaimed" qualifying statement that is always so slyly mentioned beforehand but again, I digress. According to you, Elvis was "rockbilly" so the use of "King of Rock and Roll" must also be a falsehood? Again, I am left to do more pretending. Let me wrap this up by reitterating RhondaB's statement "no one has denied white ppl in any way. If anything black ppl have been denied their impact and influence on Rock n roll and that's what this thread is about." [Edited 8/1/06 9:41am] Your response is so wildly rife with misinterpretations of my "interjection", Im not even half sure what in blazes your talking about in your reponse. I hesitate to respond because if you went and completeley misinterpreted and pretty much ignored everything i said,...than whats the point of writing anything else???
About your Beale street comments,...did i say Elvis had no black influences??? And Im not sure what you mean by racist or bigot,...but I was talking about the system in american society that facilitates the lack of recognition of black artists,...which IS racist. As far as this business of self titling... In the early 90's Michael Jacksons promtional videos for television(not music videos) released by him and his record company, Epic, to promote the pending release of Dangerous...was where the King of Pop proclimation was first used and boldly diplayed. It WASNT the press,...it was Michael. Elvis stated many times on the press record that he disliked and hated being called the King of Rock and Roll. And as i said,..the ridiculous stereotype that elvis as a white guy could only have rythm by virtue of his black influences is silly. There were plenty of white folks who danced like Elvis,..but like i said they probably mostly female ...and strippers!
But i welcome you to show me or name ANY performer that was conteporary to or preceeded Elvis...that had his same dance moves. Show me. Look,..I am total and ABSOLUTE agreement with the point of this thread,...just not where it veers off into untruth. Truly great Black artists not getting proper recognition? Damn right they dont. Hell man, in my opinion,...James Brown's birthday should be a straight national holiday! Thats how deep that brother's contribution to the world is. But did Elvis rip off black people? Hell no. . [Edited 8/1/06 12:11pm] | |
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sexyfunkystrange said: BlaqueKnight said: I suggest you re-examine your MISUAGE of the word "racist" as it it rivals the Germans calling Jews anti-semitic. Its amazing how comfortable white Americans have become with calling others racists with the rich history of indulgence that Euro-Americans have in it. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term "bigot", as it more accurately describes what you are attempting to proclaim. How accurate you are is also at question, but I digress. In order to believe that Elvis did not steal from black people, I would first have to believe that Elvis did not spend every waking opportunity on Beale Street when he was younger. Then I would have to believe that Beale Street is not the gentrified, cultureless politically correct tourist trap that it is now as opposed to the 95% black hotbed of music that it was in Elvis's day. You need only venture back as far as the 80s to know this was the case. I would also have to believe that Elvis was not affected by any of the artists he saw. Sorry, that's too much believing for me. As for your assessment of Elvis's movements, maybe nobody "white" moved like Elvis....
While I don't think Elvis was a racist himself (just a poor dumb f*ck who did what he was told by a true racist, Col. Parker), I do believe that there was a lot of pretending and ignoring going on to make Elvis the "King of Rock" that he's been labeled. In truth Elvis could no more proclaim himself the "King of Rock" than Michael Jackson could proclaim himself the "King of Pop". The media creates these labels just like they create headlines to catch your attention. No artist could successfully campaign such a term without ever saying it themselves. Its funny how Mtv tried to say that MJ started the whole "King of Pop" thing when it was a term used by every paper and television that showed him. People always distort things when viewing in retrospect. If he had not been in trouble, they would still be calling him the king of pop without the "self-proclaimed" qualifying statement that is always so slyly mentioned beforehand but again, I digress. According to you, Elvis was "rockbilly" so the use of "King of Rock and Roll" must also be a falsehood? Again, I am left to do more pretending. Let me wrap this up by reitterating RhondaB's statement "no one has denied white ppl in any way. If anything black ppl have been denied their impact and influence on Rock n roll and that's what this thread is about." [Edited 8/1/06 9:41am] Your response is so wildly rife with misinterpretations of my "interjection", Im not even half sure what in blazes your talking about in your reponse. I hesitate to respond because if you went and completeley misinterpreted and pretty much ignored everything i said,...than whats the point of writing anything else???
About your Beale street comments,...did i say Elvis had no black influences??? And Im not sure what you mean by racist or bigot,...but I was talking about the system in american society that facilitates the lack of recognition of black artists,...which IS racist. As far as this business of self titling... In the early 90's Michael Jacksons promtional videos for television(not music videos) released by him and his record company, Epic, to promote the pending release of Dangerous...was where the King of Pop proclimation was first used and boldly diplayed. It WASNT the press,...it was Michael. Elvis stated many times on the press record that he disliked and hated being called the King of Rock and Roll. And as i said,..the ridiculous stereotype that elvis as a white guy could only have rythm by virtue of his black influences is silly. There were plenty of white folks who danced like Elvis,..but like i said they probably mostly female ...and strippers!
But i welcome you to show me or name ANY performer that was conteporary to or preceeded Elvis...that had his same dance moves. Show me. Look,..I am total and ABSOLUTE agreement with the point of this thread,...just not where it veers off into untruth. Truly great Black artists not getting proper recognition? Damn right they dont. Hell man, in my opinion,...James Brown's birthday should be a straight national holiday! Thats how deep that brother's contribution to the world is. But did Elvis rip off black people? Hell no. . [Edited 8/1/06 12:11pm] Ever heard of Jackie Wilson? | |
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Just to interject here
But ...folks,... Elvis never ripped off or pimped black culture or black music at all. This is an unbalanced reactionary fable based on resentment at an unbalanced and racist system in our society. According to a Time magazine piece run a few years ago, Elvis was quoted early in his career as saying he wasn't doing anything but what "colored cats [were] doing." He also found success by covering a lot of songs originally written/performed by black artists. 2 words, my friend, and two words alone, utterly refute your argument. 1. Hound. 2. Dog. [Edited 8/1/06 12:26pm] [Edited 8/1/06 12:36pm] Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder | |
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Just to interject here
But ...folks,... Elvis never ripped off or pimped black culture or black music at all. This is an unbalanced reactionary fable based on resentment at an unbalanced and racist system in our society. [/quote] It scares me that people actually believe this. | |
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Graycap23 said: Ever heard of Jackie Wilson? I know Jackie's career front to back. He loved Elvis. They were friends. Did they have they same moves? NO! The difference betwenn Jackie and Elvis was that Jackie was a sharper dancer ..and more elegant in his many of his moves. Elvis on the other hand was very raw and sexual. The raw sexuality is what differentiated Elvis from all the rest. By virtue of a cat dancing dont mean its all the same. . | |
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sexyfunkystrange said: Graycap23 said: Ever heard of Jackie Wilson? I know Jackie's career front to back. He loved Elvis. They were friends. Did they have they same moves? NO! The difference betwenn Jackie and Elvis was that Jackie was a sharper dancer ..and more elegant in his many of his moves. Elvis on the other hand was very raw and sexual. The raw sexuality is what differentiated Elvis from all the rest. By virtue of a cat dancing dont mean its all the same. . i have always enjoyed Elvis but 2 say he did not rip off the brothers is just flat out UNTRUE. He did add his own flavor but he was a form of white face. | |
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namepeace said: Just to interject here
But ...folks,... Elvis never ripped off or pimped black culture or black music at all. This is an unbalanced reactionary fable based on resentment at an unbalanced and racist system in our society. According to a Time magazine piece run a few years ago, Elvis was quoted early in his career as saying he wasn't doing anything but what "colored cats [were] doing." He also found success by covering a lot of songs originally written/performed by black artists. 2 words, my friend, and two words alone, utterly refute your argument. 1. Hound. 2. Dog. Sounds like youre confusing,...influence ...with "ripping off". And by bringing up Time magazine article,.. you just validated one of my earlier points when i said,... "Nor did he ever refrain from publicly acknowledging his African-american influences. " Yes he covered songs by black artists, ...and white artists...and italian artists!! So? Bruh, ...you got to do your homework.But when you do,..youll see things arent like you may want them to be. Heres something you obviously are unaware of..... The song Hound Dog, was a slow blues number recorded by Big Mama Thorton (a black woman) in 1953 and WRITTEN specifically for her by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stroller (two JEWISH men!). You might also want to know that... A Philly group of Italians, called Freddie and the Bellboys,...two years later, covered it, but changed the song completeley to a fast uptempo dance song,..that resembles the original ..only lyric wise, and is otherwise completely different. You might also want to know that... In 1955 Freddie and the Bellboys were playing Las Vegas,..and this is where Elvis saw them for the first time. It was there Elvis heard also for the FIRST TIME...Hound Dog. Elvis had never even heard of Big Mama Thorton before. It was The Bellboys fast version of Hound Dog, that Elvis saw and he asked them if he could cover it for his next album. And that is the version you are talking about. Next. 
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100MPH said: whatsgoingon said: Why do the Beatles, Elvis and even someone like Madonna continue to get more recognition and respect than Marvin, Stevie, James Brown etc.?
I am not saying that black artists do not get respect at all, but when the so called experts continue to put the likes of Elvis, who never wrote any of his songs and practically "stole" a lot of his material from black artists and some one like Madonna, whose main talent is reinventing herself, over the likes of Marvin Gaye and Aretha it makes me angry.. [Edited 7/30/06 7:27am] Ignorance = a bliss 
I remember though a few pioneers like George Clinton being inducted in the R&R Hall Of Fame . There should be a Afro-American Hall Of Fame . Speaking of R&R ... Chuck Berry & Little Richard were rockin' already WAY before Elvis . At least Chuck , Jimi , Marley and maybe a few more were portrayed at the edition # 1000 from Rolling Stone . 
 I'm sure this has already been said in this thread somewhere but it is completely insulting to have Nelly, or is that 50cent? (behind Elvis), so up front and Stevie Wonder is way in the back. Whoever put that cover together did all kinds of wrong. Prince is way in the back too. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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Graycap23 said: sexyfunkystrange said: I know Jackie's career front to back. He loved Elvis. They were friends. Did they have they same moves? NO! The difference betwenn Jackie and Elvis was that Jackie was a sharper dancer ..and more elegant in his many of his moves. Elvis on the other hand was very raw and sexual. The raw sexuality is what differentiated Elvis from all the rest. By virtue of a cat dancing dont mean its all the same. . i have always enjoyed Elvis but 2 say he did not rip off the brothers is just flat out UNTRUE. He did add his own flavor but he was a form of white face. I feel you man,..yeah he was white. But look,.. he didnt rip off black folks. Its a fable. You wanna call it as it is? Then trash Pat Boone,..or Vanilla Ice,..or the racist ass system that still perpetutes this color nonsense ...from all sides. Elvis was just a great and passionate performer and real,...to mark him ass a rip off,...just aint correct. James Brown in his autobiography,..talks about how he cried for days when Elvis died. because he loved him so much. That says it all. . | |
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sexyfunkystrange said: Graycap23 said: i have always enjoyed Elvis but 2 say he did not rip off the brothers is just flat out UNTRUE. He did add his own flavor but he was a form of white face. I feel you man,..yeah he was white. But look,.. he didnt rip off black folks. Its a fable. You wanna call it as it is? Then trash Pat Boone,..or Vanilla Ice,..or the racist ass system that still perpetutes this color nonsense ...from all sides. Elvis was just a great and passionate performer and real,...to mark him ass a rip off,...just aint correct. James Brown in his autobiography,..talks about how he cried for days when Elvis died. because he loved him so much. That says it all. . I alwayed loved Elvis's music as well. hell. I still watch his corny movies. | |
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sexyfunkystrange said: Sounds like youre confusing,...influence ...with "ripping off".
And by bringing up Time magazine article,.. you just validated one of my earlier points when i said,... "Nor did he ever refrain from publicly acknowledging his African-american influences. " First of all, welcome newbie. Now, to be clear, I just refuted your point, which you're simply changing to validate yourself. Elvis never "pimped" black culture or black music at all.
Elvis' cover of "Hound Dog" played a HUGE part in his success. So he DID use black music to gain fame. So when you got called on your blanket statement, which wasn't really true, you said . . . Yes he covered songs by black artists, ...and white artists...and italian artists!!
So? So . . . don't make blanket statements you can't back up. Bruh, ...you got to do your homework.But when you do,..youll see things arent like you may want them to be. Newbies . . .
Chill out, son. It ain't that deep. Heres something you obviously are unaware of.....
The song Hound Dog, was a slow blues number recorded by Big Mama Thorton (a black woman) in 1953 and WRITTEN specifically for her by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stroller (two JEWISH men!). You're going to have to apologize for the errors in your "apology" for Elvis. Fact is, Big Mama Thornton claimed to have written that song, and many insist her claims have some validity. http://en.wikipedia.org/w...a_Thornton You might also want to know that... A Philly group of Italians, called Freddie and the Bellboys,...two years later, covered it, but changed the song completeley to a fast uptempo dance song,..that resembles the original ..only lyric wise, and is otherwise completely different. You might also want to know that... In 1955 Freddie and the Bellboys were playing Las Vegas,..and this is where Elvis saw them for the first time. It was there Elvis heard also for the FIRST TIME...Hound Dog. Elvis had never even heard of Big Mama Thorton before. It was The Bellboys fast version of Hound Dog, that Elvis saw and he asked them if he could cover it for his next album. And that is the version you are talking about. That info is all helpful, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that BMT claimed to have written the song. And Freddie and the Bellboys weren't influenced by black artists, right? You're "obviously unaware" ( I LOVE newbies . . .) that black artists of that era were constantly ripped off when it came to songwriting and royalty credits.
Next.
Charming. Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder | |
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First off,...the TRUTH is that he was never really Rock and Roll at all.
He was Rockabilly. Rockabilly was a distinct musical form, with its hiccuping vocals, finger popping country style guitars, and clikity clak bass.... that sounded NOTHING whatsoever like black R&B. And he was essentially the first artist to invent and present that form of music. Which is a hybrid of blues and country and bluegrass. Dance on. R&B is Rhythm and Blues. Blues is an element of Rockabilly. But Rockabilly, which includes the blues, doesn't sound ANYTHING like Rhythm and Blues? Get yourself. [Edited 8/1/06 14:45pm] [Edited 8/1/06 15:01pm] Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder | |
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Graycap23 said: I alwayed loved Elvis's music as well. hell. I still watch his corny movies.
My parents are FROM Memphis. I drove by Graceland hundreds of times growing up. There are apocryphal stories about Elvis that show a very generous man. He was an amazing performer in his own right. [Edited 8/1/06 15:27pm] Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder | |
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I almost wish I could find the post I did on Elvis and his relationship with the Newborns (Phineas & Calvin).
However, I doubt if it would solve anything. Once these type of debates get rolling in a certain direction, generally, nothing positive ever comes from them. tA  Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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BlaqueKnight said: sexyfunkystrange said: a lot of stuff about Elvis.
I suggest you re-examine your MISUAGE of the word "racist" as it it rivals the Germans calling Jews anti-semitic. Its amazing how comfortable white Americans have become with calling others racists with the rich history of indulgence that Euro-Americans have in it. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term "bigot", as it more accurately describes what you are attempting to proclaim. How accurate you are is also at question, but I digress. In order to believe that Elvis did not steal from black people, I would first have to believe that Elvis did not spend every waking opportunity on Beale Street when he was younger. Then I would have to believe that Beale Street is not the gentrified, cultureless politically correct tourist trap that it is now as opposed to the 95% black hotbed of music that it was in Elvis's day. You need only venture back as far as the 80s to know this was the case. I would also have to believe that Elvis was not affected by any of the artists he saw. Sorry, that's too much believing for me. As for your assessment of Elvis's movements, maybe nobody "white" moved like Elvis....
While I don't think Elvis was a racist himself (just a poor dumb f*ck who did what he was told by a true racist, Col. Parker), I do believe that there was a lot of pretending and ignoring going on to make Elvis the "King of Rock" that he's been labeled. In truth Elvis could no more proclaim himself the "King of Rock" than Michael Jackson could proclaim himself the "King of Pop". The media creates these labels just like they create headlines to catch your attention. No artist could successfully campaign such a term without ever saying it themselves. Its funny how Mtv tried to say that MJ started the whole "King of Pop" thing when it was a term used by every paper and television that showed him. People always distort things when viewing in retrospect. If he had not been in trouble, they would still be calling him the king of pop without the "self-proclaimed" qualifying statement that is always so slyly mentioned beforehand but again, I digress. According to you, Elvis was "rockbilly" so the use of "King of Rock and Roll" must also be a falsehood? Again, I am left to do more pretending. Let me wrap this up by reitterating RhondaB's statement "no one has denied white ppl in any way. If anything black ppl have been denied their impact and influence on Rock n roll and that's what this thread is about." [Edited 8/1/06 9:41am]  | |
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namepeace said:
First of all, welcome newbie. Only to this board not to the facts,... but thanks!
Now, to be clear, I just refuted your point, which you're simply changing to validate yourself. By mentioning the Time article quote of elvis having said,.. early in his career he wasn't doing anything but what "colored cats [were] doing." , shows me that he is ,..like i said,...ACKNOWLEDGING his black influences. If he was "ripping off" black artists,..then why would he make a public statement like that????? Your defenition of a loaded term like "ripping off" is curious and not very clear to me. That info is all helpful, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that BMT claimed to have written the song. Yeah,...ive only heard faintly of that. But have never seen any direct quotes...just rumors. Its certainly possible...but Im not gonna speak of something that i cant back up. If you have any soild quotes or info on it please pass it along. But still how does that affect that Elvis never even heard of her. All he saw was the Bellboys version. And recorded it a couple weeks later. And Freddie and the Bellboys weren't influenced by black artists, right? Aha! I gotchya! This question gives you away and your leaning towards feelings over facts. Why are you making it sound like i would think that?? I want you to show me where in ANY of my statements that i contend that the influence of black artists was not part of the equation. Or that Elvis wasnt influenced by them.Show me! (yes,.. the bellboys were highly influenced by black artists,...they were practically a straight R&B group) You're "obviously unaware" ( I LOVE newbies . . .) that black artists of that era were constantly ripped off when it came to songwriting and royalty credits.
Damn right they were!! So whats your point? That because Elvis did a cover version,...of a cover version,...of a song that he had never heard before....he was "ripping off" black artists?? Next.
Charming.[/ Ya...i thought itd be kinda cute | |
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