dreamfactory313 said:

I typed a response to your post but I erased it. Not in the mood for it today.
I will say what I want, when I want, where I want and there's nothing you can do about it. If you need "points of reference" for everything then its possible that you are not in the know, which means you aren't up on new QUALITY artists, which means you are probably not looking for them.
Keep listening to Clear Channel slop
OR
Get you some Adriana Evans, Hill St. Soul, Van Hunt, Sy Smith, Mayasa, Lizz Wright, Martin Luther, Amel Larrieux, Leela James, Conya Doss, Raheem DeVaughn,and some Olu and get your R&B ear right.
Stop trying to argue with people like VC on here because they are unwilling to swallow the Clear Channel pill so easily. Shitty artists get shit on. Deal with it.


To whatsgoingon:
The music business is political. Just take pride in knowing that YOU recognize them as great and tell other about them so that maybe they'll discover them, too. Its better to be respected by a few who understand than millions who don't. I wish they had their props too along with a few others but at least they were out there for a while and their work will live on.

BlaqueKnight said:

AMAZING POST!!! So so so True

BlaqueKnight said:

My brotha, I am well in the know. Not looking to pick a cyberfight. I just let the westside of detroit come out for a minute. I own most of the discs of most of the artists u posted just now. Just because I appreciate some of the artists played on urban radio DOES NOT mean that I am a ClearChannel or Radio One apologist. I know real music. U are responding to a blood relative of Lamont Dozier from classic Motown. I have been raised on the greatest of black music, so dont get it twisted. Just because I like a Neptunes production or the Peas doesnt mean a damn thing.

lastdecember said:

I agree with the bulk of what u have to say. The only people that can change the state of things is us. Sex, drugs, and violence is always going to be big seller. Its the American way. We as consumers have to start doing some things differently. I would love a Van Hunt or India Arie show. This has probably never crossed their minds at BET.

I gotta also agree with Bknight!
The truth of the matter is We as black people can some of the lack of respect to our elders. I went to an All Star Blues Show in Chi-town with my dad. there were less than 20 black people in the crowd. I went to see the late great Nina Simone before her passing again very few black people in the crowd. I went to see an old school Rap show. There were NO Black People in the crowd. Yet the house was packed to hilt. The biggest problem in my eyes is that the trend in "Urban" is what ever is hot today is all that matters.
If you can stomach watching BET 106 and Park the old school song of the day will more than likely be about 2 years old. Maxwell sadly is now seen as old school. There is no education nor support about the old school artist history. All most folks know about is the huge stars. We have to start by showing the younger generation about these artists. With the internet the word can be spread very easily. Grandmaster Caz for example is on myspace. He tells stories in his Bulletins all the time. Brownmark also is on myspace and tells stories. WE ALL need to take part in keeping our history. Each one of us can make a difference.

Well then, would you say that it is we...the buying public who are to blame? I mean taking what Bknight said into account, I think the reason why people like the Neptunes and Ashanti are given the titles that he mentioned is due to the fact that since there is nothing "good" out there to listen to, once they come out with something that at first seems different from what is one the radio, at first and then familar,(maybe cause of an old Isley Bro.sample) we tend to embrace it. Couple this with a good marketing campaign and we are hooked. Like I said before, some of our people will not take the time to educate ourselves on our history and this includes our musical history. When I was growing up, I heard the music from my country,Calypso. I was also exposed to the Beatles, Sly Stone, Parliment, Count Bassie....you name it and it was played in this house. This is something that is not done today.....and it is ashame. One thing that I have to disagree with Bknight on....the people that you mentioned, the Hill St. soul and others of the world, are starting to sound like all of the rest. This is not their fault....but radio. They will play them due to the fact that they have a sound that is so different but yet so familar....Trouble with this is, they sometimes play these artist to death....making their once new sound, sound so familar and trivalized. Anything in excess can be bad....moderation is the key.
[Edited 7/30/06 12:32pm]
[Edited 7/30/06 12:34pm]

dreamfactory313 said:

I accept GOOD black music. Not shit. I consider much of contemporary mainstream music total shit and I'm not going to lie and say I don't. You want to know what attitudes really need to change? The attitudes of corporate suits who want to make a quick buck and have no investment in real artistry, and who warp and twist black culture to feed on stereotypes and make money. Because the people on the org are generally knowledgeable about what's out there and know how to get their hands on it. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who only know crap because crap is all that is played on the radio, MTV, etc.



You are preaching to the choir - you do realize that, right? You're on the org here.



I bash what is SHIT, not GOOD black music. And yes, I think acts like the BEP and Pharrell are COMPLETE SHIT and the WORST EXAMPLE OF MODERN CORPORATE BULLSHIT MUSIC THERE IS. Just because I don't support them does NOT mean I'm not supporting black music. I bash shit because I think it deserves to be bashed. I am not just going to "accept" it and convince myself that it is somehow good and will evolve into something positive, because I would be lying to myself.
[Edited 7/30/06 12:47pm]

VoicesCarry said:

whatever makes u happy. i'm moving on.

dreamfactory313 said:

I think the main problem with the world today are the words "thats how it is" or its "always going to be like that". Just recenlty there was this long ass thread about Janet Jackson and getting her played on MTV and its cool to take a stand but how about throwing half of that energy into something that really matters, like petetioning BET and telling them that the DMX and LIL KIM shows are degrading to Black people as a whole, if thats the image that they are trying to promote then its up to people to hit back. And trust me if enough people hit them and ratings drop and revenue drop then things will change. I think we should take a hint from the Latin Market, recently there was alot of flack for the images in Reggaeton Videos and now the stations are dropping videos out of the rotations because of that. Why cant that happen in Rap music, why does the image of Lloyd Banks smacking a girl in the ass have to be the image of Rap, i mean we can talk about that not being what "rap" is about, but in reality that is what its about. I think for BET, to stand for Black Entertainment should really bother people more than it does.

lastdecember said:

I thought people were doing that sort of thing, as they have now cancelled that BET show where it's just naked video hos 24/7. Rhondab wrote in to Bravo to complain about Being Bobby Brown, too.

VoicesCarry said:

Well its a start, but when they replace it with LIL KIM and DMX shows, its like a step forward and then back again. I think the main thing would be to get alot of the crap out of the prime viewing times, then i would say things are changing

Here is the problem in a quick soundbyte (well sort of quick). I worked in Music retail for close to 18 years and i remember a few years back the company i worked for was doing a promotion for Black History Month. Ok so they sent us a list and wanted certain movies on sale in prime locations (films like BELLY, Training Day etc..) then for music to put the list had NWA, 50Cent, Dr Dre etc... Now i know that these things are a part of "black culture" but i think the issue is that is what is promoted and put on tv. It took Blacks so long to get a chance to be seen on Tv and in music and what is dominating the airwaves, Negative Rap/RB and Films and the images they put out.

lastdecember said:

Sadly you know it would be low rated. They do make specials like that but always get low rating. TBS has a show called storyline where they were showcasing unsigned positive talent. It gets horrible ratings.
I am glad to see folks still care about the funk!

dreamfactory313 said:

I think BK is already in the game.

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said: but the numbers (record sales, etc) provides groundwork for why some artists get more recognition than others. Ultimately, numbers are what makes these arguments go. The artistic aspects of white versus black artists is purely subjective.

Sorry for the long post [/quote]


That's where you lost me. Because, if it's a numbers game why doesn't Mariah Carey get any love from critics. That's one of their main whipping points that's she's all about the numbers.

roundables said:

That's where you lost me. Because, if it's a numbers game why doesn't Mariah Carey get any love from critics. That's one of their main whipping points that's she's all about the numbers.[/quote]

Mariah Carey is a unique case. She sells records in bunches, but I think she is an artist that gets a smaller degree of respect for a myriad of factors, but I'll talk about one:

1)genre of music (she is a hybrid pop/R&B artist) Not easy to peg her style since she goes all over the map. She has made some great songs, but to this day, there seems to be two camps in the Mariah Carey fan base: Those that love her pop stuff and those who like her more soulful/earlier work. This dichotomy caused a rift of sorts between how people perceive her music, namely critics. She has definitely geared her music more towards the urban stations now, so critics that have images of the Mariah as a ballad singer are a bit miffed.

BlaqueKnight said:

Like that phrase

WildheartXXX said:

hum maybe.

jn2 said:

The Beatles aren't in the same league as P-Funk.

I know they were great writers and took the music world by storm

and blah blah blah blah blah blah



Remember George stating that Smokey, Sly, & The Beatles were his favorite songwriters.

But Smokey was his all time favorite..


Sly made him rethink music.

When it comes to youngsters going on about 50cents, Beyonce and Usher I believe that is just part of being young; young people like what is "in" at the time. I am sure as these they mature they will become more open to the likes of Marvin Gaye and Aretha Franklin.

I mean I know when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s I know peeps who thought the Jackson 5 and the MJ were the best thing since slice bread, these same people now think MJ has "no talent"(which, imo, is not true). But that partly due to them growing up and experiencing the likes of Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfleid and other artists that they weren't necessarily expose to whilst they grow up. So quite frankly I am not really worry about the youngsters today who believe Pharrel(who I personally don't mind) is "great", because these same people will grow and discover better black artists.

And even inspite of the dominance of rap and hip-hop, there is still some hope in the likes of John Legend, Jill Scott, India and even Alicia Keyes who are taking it back to the basis...

Honestly….we absolutely MUST start honoring our own and stop worry about the masses. That is one reason why I love the NAACP/BET type award shows. We CANNOT afford 2 kept worrying about being accepted. We r here and we r doing out thang. Screw the rest.

That is a main reason that I am attracted 2 Prince’s approach 2 the whole music BUSINESS. He knows the game yet he does things his way. There is a lesson there…………..if u choose 2 see.

dreamfactory313 said:

yeah, yeah...but was he wrong...

BK is on point..as usual.

Well, as I see it, we're talking about 2 problems: one is historic and one is systemic.

When it comes to rock music, society are historically challenged. The Muddy Waters, Robert Johnsons, Little Richards, Chuck Berrys and Bo Diddleys of the world were denied commercial success because their music was categorized as "race music" or worse. Once more palatable -- white -- faces were used to sell the music, the Elvises, Buddy Hollys, etc. enjoyed monster success. Black artists were later recognized, but many of those early legends were marginalized such that rock and roll is associated solely with white people, and to this day, Jimi Hendrix might be the lone exception. But black people invented rock and roll.

Now, as far as the R&B/soul artists are concerned, I would say that Aretha, Stevie, the Temps, Smokey Robinson, Ray Charles, and so many others can't ever get enough praise, but they have largely been hailed as legends in their own right.

Today's problem is systemic. Not even black people buy records from black musicians. Hip-hop has a grittier image and it's cheaper to produce. We're so removed from our musical roots that we don't appreciate our own music anymore, except as a resource to cut the next hot sample. Stevie couldn't get arrested in Detroit if he were starting out today. Ditto for Sly Stone, Jimi and dare I say that skinny little sucker with the high voice.

BlaqueKnight said:

See that's why I like reading your posts BK. You and I see eye to eye on alot of things. Particularily this issue. Ive gotten so I don't even watch award shows anymore because of the garbage music being put out there. Songs like "Shake Dat Laffy Taffy" I'm embarrassed for the brothers who sing that song. And don't get me started on the Yin Yang Twins. If I hear that one brother say IIIII!!! one more time, I'm flying down to the Dirty South just to smack him in the back of his head! Okay i'm done venting now. Hopefully the artists with real talent will get their props real soon.

ThePunisher said:

I agree with BOTH of u guys but I don't see the industry changing until the FANS do.

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:

Elvis isn't the King of "rock & roll" (little r, little r). He's the King of "Rock & Roll" (big R, big R). he's the reason why rock & roll isn't just another entry in the book of popular music fads, or a footnote to culture in general.

Dayspring said:

He made it more commercial and I won't dispute that fact, but on artistic merit, that is completely subjective. It is the same reason I can't say a certain someone is the King of Pop.

Names bestowed upon individuals to proclaim their superiority in a field(especially the music) is more often than not determined by numbers and media impressions. Elvis is a monolith in American media, therefore his being a "king" is not something I readily accept. Sure he's sold hundreds of millions of albums, but he is not the father of Rock & Roll. He is its greatest pimp, taking a sound that was well developed, yet under promoted by black artists(various social factors) in the late 40's/50's and making it a viable commercial tool.

Its all subjective

In regards to the little r for rock n' roll, that was a typo. No subliminal dig intended.

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:

you didn't make a typo (you used the big R's). i was just drawing a distinction between rock and roll as a form of music and Rock & Roll as a cultural juggernaut.

but as you say, he is not the father of rock & roll. that's why he's not called the "Father of Rock & Roll" ... he's the King you needn't have invented something to be the premeire name associated with it or the best at it.

Dayspring said:

Very true...

By the way, cool avatar. You an Xmen fan?

I haven't seen Natahnial Dayspring in about a decade (???)(when I last collected the comics).