EDIT: This is actually a spin-off from an another thread

After watching the director's cut of Tip Drill, I can't help but to ask this question to all of the women that have seen THIS video:

What the hell was she thinking in allowing ANY MAN (let alone Nelly, a recording artist) to swipe a credit card between her booty?

It's too easy to blame male rap artists & video directors for wanting to film these kinds of controversial scenes (sex sells, remember?). But what about these women (video vixen, video hoes, etc.) that really wanted to be in THESE KINDS of videos.

These women (black, white, latina, asian, whatever) ALWAYS have a choice. They don't have to do this. No matter how bad they need the money or the exposure, they don't have to allow themselves to go through this foolishness of having their bodies & self-respect abuse like this.

AND ONE other thing to all women & men:

What if Tip Drill was a Lil' Kim video? What if Kim were to take her credit card and swipe between a man butt, would the outrage be the same from both male & female critics? Or would there be a double standard between the genders?

TonyVanDam said:

Never seen the video. But just like the women are hired to degrade themselves in general, this is just a step further in the wrong direction...

It's too easy to blame male rap artists & video directors for wanting to film these kinds of controversial scenes (sex sells, remember?). But what about these women (video vixen, video hoes, etc.) that really wanted to be in THESE KINDS of videos.

These women (black, white, latina, asian, whatever) ALWAYS have a choice. They don't have to do this. No matter how bad they need the money or the exposure, they don't have to allow themselves to go through this foolishness of having their bodies & self-respect abuse like this.

It's true, the women DO have a choice. No one is saying they don't. But there's a lot of warped shit happening in the world & I can understand why some women make choices like this. "Admiration" from men could be the only positive reinforcement some of these girls ever get, so they dive in head first b/c it feels good to them. There's a ton of possibilities - no one is saying the women aren't at fault, but there's such a bombardment of images like this particularly for young Black girls right now. There's no balance & THAT is my main issue with it. It can easily warp a kids brain - and for some kids with little guidance & role models in their own lives this should NOT be their most prevalent example of Black women.

AND ONE other thing to all women & men:

What if Tip Drill was a Lil' Kim video? What if Kim were to take her credit card and swipe between a man butt, would the outrage be the same from both male & female critics? Or would there be a double standard between the genders?

EDIT: THIS question might become a thread in itself.

Honestly (and I know the men here will skewer me for this) but I don't think it would be as terrible if it were a woman doing the same act to a man for the simple fact that men are not sexually objectified even 50% as much as women are so the image is ultimately less detrimental IMO. It's not drummed into people's heads over & over & over, day after day, minute after minute that a man's only purpose is to provide sex. Until we get anywhere near that point (which we never will) it just doesn't have the same impact & doesn't do as much damage.

CalhounSq said:

This is a crucial point, one which I hope will not go over people's heads. Men often need to be taught this concept, because the nature of privilege is that it is invisible to the holder. Men are not always aware of their male privilege until they are shown the ways in which women don't have access to it.

I don't care how sexy the videos get as long as the music is good (which it's not). If they are played very late at night, they should be able to show full frontal nudity if they want to. After all, cable is paid television, it's not free, and I want my money's worth.

However, I notice they love to show some nasty bitch with a cottage cheese ass jiggling like jello. I've also noticed women's swimsuits getting skimpier and skimpier while men are practically swimming in long pants these days. What's fair is fair. Show some damn dicks flopping around and getting ready to bust out of thongs. I'm all for nudity but dammitt cater to everyone with a dirty mind.

vainandy said:

I agree with CalhounSq:

You can't ignore the historical and commercial contexts of sexuality and the objectification of women, when discussing music videos.

The economic component is also crucial to discussing this. Many of the women you referenced (I believe) in another thread about video dancers/actresses do so as a doorway to greater opportunity and money.

Consider the scores of economically disadvantaged, poorly educated women who predominate that video-actress category: How many of them do you think have college degrees? Professional, white-collar career paths?

At the root of this type of exploitation is the same economic dynamic behind prostitution and the porn industry:

"Let's dangle this money in front of this broke woman and let's see how she'll debase herself for it."

When you have that kind of dynamic, there seems to be far less choice for a woman than you seem to suggest.

ThreadBare said:

Thank you, TB.

ThreadBare said:

"seems" is the operative word. Calhoun is right, there's always another choice. Especially in the US.

This isn't as much an economic thing as it is a self esteem/head thing. Many of those girls don't even realize they are the victim because they are too deluded by what they believe to be power.

I'm sure it's often ignorance too. I wonder how these girls will view these videos 10/20 years from now.

vainandy said:

Cottage Cheese Ass!

ThreadBare said:

Don't forget about the video vixens that are doing this to play their way through college.

Again, they have a choice!

Again, I think it's convenient, often classist, for people to tell other people -- presumably poor and poorly educated -- what their options for advancement are.

I sit in a house, college-educated and from a great family with an understanding of presentation and communication.

I would prefer each and every one of those women go to college or get a job in retail or hospitality, state/federal government, etc.

But you know what? Many of them do and try to get by.

I'm not saying women don't have responsibility for the choices that they make. I'm saying you do a disservice to the discussion if you look at it in a vacuum.

Women are devalued in most parts of society. Shucks, I know female ministers who can't get preaching engagements because of their gender...

vainandy said:

Nice! True, you can't escape the objectification of women, and when I see a reversal--the thong image you so beautifully describe--I get a sense of what women must feel every day in the supermarket checkout aisle, watching TV, Movies, on the beach, etc.

Actually, there are times (seldom though they may be) when I, as a committed but heterosexual man, am trying to keep a pure mind and I'm constantly assaulted with these images. It's not fair to men either! It's like constantly offering a fix to a junkie.

ThreadBare said:

So what are you saying? 'cause by viewing this as an option or a "way out", it would seem you are "viewing in the vacuum".

The thread is "...music videos going too far". At this point it's deeper than a money thing.

anon said:

I'm seeing the videos as an extension of exploitation within society as a whole. As such, economic empowerment for the sorts of women who star in the videos is crucial.

Why are we assuming that all the women in these videos are on the wrong side of the tracks, uneducated, broke, have low self esteeem, etc... It's the same kind of arguments you hear about strippers. Not everyone does these kinds of things because they're desperate and going through hard times.

People do these kinds of things for alot of different reasons, some may very well be desperate for the money, others might just be doing it for the thrill of it. If they got their kicks out of it, and a few extra dollars for their time, and they're happy and had fun, thats their business, I wouldn't consider them "victims" of anything.

Tom said:

I agree with you. But in the context of this thread, many of the young girls are victims...victimized, first, by their own ignorance and then exploited by many who know better.

ThreadBare said:

I don't know. I would think that's more true in Eastern Europe than in the states.

I do agree that "empowerment" has something to do with it. Don't think it's as much money as it is esteem, though. Many of those girls do these videos for no money.

Tom said:

But the people doing "for the kicks" are the minority, Tom. Attention should still be paid to the ways in which women are victimized by this industry.

I can see why women would be upset because a lot of the stuff the men have these girls doing, they see as degrading themselves because they won't do these things.

What gets on my last nerve is when they have the girls kissing each other. I definately have no problem with people of the same sex kissing but I do have a problem with it when it is done only for the purpose of giving some pervert a thrill that would never kiss another man himself. They think two men kissing is nasty but they have no problem asking two women to do it. Those little sluts have no self respect and a self respecting lesbian or bisexual woman would never let a man watch her with her female partners.

vainandy said:

You're right, but wouldn't that be a great concept/gimmick/statement...the male artist that allows himself to be subjected to these same things...to make a statement.

I'd watch all of his videos. Anything for the cause.

vainandy said:

The concept of having a threesome is nothing new.

And that's EXACTLY why these artists push to have a bisexual/leabian scene between two women. It's never about the women themselves at all. It's always about what the straight man wants out of this sexual arrangement for himself!

I can't begin to tell all of you just how often I can hear guys within their "locker room discussions" about how they dream of having a threesome with their wives/girlfriends and another woman (the ideas they receive from watching music videos & adult films). And I'm the one who has to tell them:

"Yes, that dream can come for you. You, your woman and the other woman can have that night of passion and it's all good for the 3 of you. At least until, your woman ended up leaving you in the near future for the other woman because that other woman loves her and she satify her emotional & sexual needs better than you!!!"

TonyVanDam said:

I have to admit that I find the sight of two gorgeous women passionately kissing each other to be very erotic. And I love fantasizing about having threesomes. Having said that, the reality of having a threesome is a lot messier. Even bringing it up makes a lot of women angry, since most of them are not inclined to perform homoerotic acts on any female, and it also brings up a lot of insecurities in their mind, as they wonder whether or not they are attractive enough for their husband/boyfriend, and if their man is cheating on them, etc. Granted, there ar some women who are bisexual who would initially be open to the idea of a threesome with another woman but then flake out at the last minute because they woory about whether their male partner will give them or the other woman more of his attention in bed.

Of course, I'm willing to bet that most of these same guys who dream of having threesomes with their wives/girlfriends don't think of having it with another man. The thought of having another man in bed with them freaks them out because they worry whether their wife/girlfriend will be more sexually satisfied by the other man, and doing anything homoerotic with the other guy will make them puke. And how many women really want to do DP? (Despite what the porn industry would have us guys believe, most women revolt at the thought of doing anal sex, even with the men they love!)

Anyway, I'm getting too far off topic here. As for why women will degrade themselves to shake their booties and/or titties in a music video, Playboy, "Girls Gone Wild," etc., nearly all of them have some issue with their self-esteem. How many times have a bunch of guys seen a drop-dead gorgeous woman walk by them to the point where they are drooling or have a visible erection in their pants, yet that same woman looks at herself in the mirror and thinks she looks too fat in her thighs, or obsesses about her skin looking to cracked or oily, or thinks she's not attractive enough because her equally sexy boyfriend has been banging her best friend and the club girl on the side? Not to mention those women who feel ugly because they don't measure up to the images in Cosmo or Vogue. Or even those gorgeous women who suffered or witnessed some type of abuse from their parents, friends or lovers and have part of their psyche damaged because of it. You don't necessarily have to be from the ghetto or trailer park or have a drug problem to have self-esteem issues.

728huey said:

Agree. Women are their own worst critic. Before they could to love a man (or people in general), they need to learn to love themselves more.
[Edited 7/11/06 20:31pm]

vainandy said:

I'm pretty sure that I could do without that visual.

Tom said:

You know, I've known some old girldfriends from back in the midwest and the south who became strippers, and trust me, the thrill of the business had nothing to do with it.

Yes, in some cases they were the product of abuse and broken homes, or had been unruly during adolescence as a reaction to screwed up circumstances.

I've even known black women with solid college degrees find themselves in poor circumstances, but go for the pole rather than tough it out because their self-esteem dictates to them that it's a better way to survive and keep up with the Jones's: I have literally had a childhood friend say to me; " I think about all the men who have seen my shit for free, and without permission (she was raped at 9) and I just think I might as well turn the tables now and get money for it". Now this a rape survivor, a former beauty queen (who is still mindbogglingly gorgeous), a former (but laid-off) marketing executive who used to work for a CARNEGIE. And as witty and intelligent, and forceful an individual she is, you can not tell me that she really enjoys what she's doing. She started out tending bar, and the first time she got smacked on her ass by a patron, she freaked out. I remember her crying "I feel so fucking violated, but I have to feed my son and keep our house and health insurance"...now where is the thrill in THAT?

But why did she choose this route, we wonder? She's a beautiful woman, highly sought after, highly sexual by nature? Why this? I think because there is something mising with the self-esteem chip on her hard drive, and she herself has mentioned this as well. Heck, as true Scorpion woman (as she is as well), I can vouch that a lot of us gals LOVE sex. Love thrilling sexual situations. AND LOVE IT ALL HEARTILY. Being a person that believes in astrology, I totally buy into the theory that much of my existence is based on sex and finding meaning and fulfillment in unlocking its' mysteries....but within the context of a balanced life, and yes, in private. In most cases I find there is usually something, as a woman, that will keep you from having a credit card swiped through your ass in front of an audience. And yes I believe it includes a high degree of self-esteem. People have been known to do many a thing for thrill and pleasure in private and safe trust, but when you have a need to take it to the streets for all to see there is usually something not quite right in the mix...

...to sum it all up, I can't imagine after partaking in that video, a woman goes home & calls her family beaming with pride, and says " I just got a credit card swiped through my ass by that grammy winner Nelly!!!! Wait till you see it! It's going to play everywhere...TELL YOUR FRIENDS MA & PA!!!!"

Ottensen said:

That's a very good example

PurpleRighteous1 said:

The crazy part of it is though, we used to be able to say that these issues were soley a matter of parenting and home environemnt. But it appears that the media market is so oversaturated with hypersexuality outside of closed doors that ANYTHING is acceptable and ANYTHING goes, even with conditioning children from the time they are toddlers. Check out this video from ABC Television as seen on hotghettomess.com:


http://hotghettomess.com/...54&catid=1


this is the ghetto mess videos page. now clink on the video with the title:


vid clip-
babybiance.wmv
74990 x hits


and the thing is...what will make you sadder? the fact that this was encouraged conditioning in a child's home, or the fact that the network actually added LAUGH TRACKS to this? this hypersexual baby step and fetch it display for American network entertainment... for me it's just screwed up all around...

Ottensen said:

GREAT post