I'm not even going to expand on the thread title. I want to see how some of you jazzheads end the sentence.

I'll just say this: it's a subject about which I'm extremely ignorant. Hence the thread.

...listening to instruments as if it was someone's voice.

CinisterCee said:

i think that's hard for me, but not impossible.

i think i can do that with some kinds of music - when prince goes off on a long rambling guitar solo, i kinda hear it as something almost vocal. same sometimes with zappa's instrumental guitar work.

jazz seems to me like more than just hearing instruments as voices - it almost kinda seems like listening to voices in a particular language or dialect, which maybe i have a hard time translating?

it's weird - it's like i really really appreciate the musicianship of jazz, but i find it really hard to enjoy because it sounds like more process than presentation to me. if that makes sense. which may be it's very appeal - its spontaneity.

i really really enjoy "a love supreme", which might be like someone saying "i don't get into prince but i REALLY like 'when doves cry' a lot!" but no other jazz album has really connected with me as much as that one has. not, of course, that i've listened to TONS of jazz...

maybe i should have called this thread "jazz for dummies (specificly, ME)"

First i'll play it as written...

~ instrumental improvisation
~ sophisticated melodies/harmonies/rhythms
~ dynamics

...Just a few things off the top of my head.

One thing that may make your exercise difficult, is that the term Jazz these days can conjure various images depending on the reader.
To some, they'll see Armstrong, Ellington, Ella, Miles, Coltrane or Sun Ra (among many others)
Others will see someone like...gulp...Kenny G.

I might have rephrased the question:
To really "get" jazz, one must have... an open mind.

Very curious to see how many serious responses you get. Excellent question Anx.


tA

Tribal Disorder

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i LOVE jazz singers, especially female vocalists like billie and etta and singers of that time and ilk. i don't really think of them as jazz "music" as much as jazz "culture" - am i warm on this?

when i think of jazz, i think of stuff like ornette coleman, john coltrane, miles davis, herbie hancock, george duke - people like that.

sun ra - jazz? really? i know little about him, but i never really heard of him as jazz.

the MOST jazz-inspired work i've heard by one artist is frank zappa, on some of his instrumental and live albums from the late '70s through mid '80s. i don't even think of that as "true" jazz, but he did have some great jazz musicians working with him in the studio and on tour. zappa's stuff always came off as really frenetic and spazzed out, but it still blows my mind that he could get a group to play such herky-jerky music with such precision.

but that's what i mean...it's like my left brain really geeks out on jazz but my right brain is like, "what does this mean and where is it going?" maybe i should tell my right side to shut up and enjoy for a change.

Anx said:

BOOYAH!


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Tribal Disorder

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theAudience said:

by "dynamics", what does that mean? how would you explain that to a layperson? or at least, to someone who's somewhere in between a layperson and someone who knows what you're talking about?

Anx said:

It means, within a piece, the volume ranges between loud and soft.
In other words, it doesn't remain at a constant volume like most Pop/Rock/Rap music.
The best examples of dynamics are found in Classical music.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

i figured as much. i think the whole reason i like "a love supreme" is because i hear a message in it, and when i hear something more free form, i start getting too analytical, like "what are they trying to say with this?" instead of just enjoying the noise they're making.

yet i can sit through a sonic youth album and be totally blissed out, no matter how abstract they get.

theAudience said:

okay...i hear a lot of that in prince's music - not just stuff like N.E.W.S. or Xpectation, but in a lot of his pop stuff, too. of course, he does have a lot of pop tracks that are at a constant volume as well.

have you listened to much indian classical music, like ravi shankar? i REALLY get into that, and i try to let that inform me when i listen to jazz. it helps a little. it's no surprise that i really love alice coltrane's music, too...

I know you're not the biggest fan of Miles, but have you heard In A Silent Way?

If you can't get with that, then my guess is that instrumental jazz is probably not your thing.

What do you think of Prince's various instrumental projects?

Anx said:

Not a lot, but there's a great deal of instrumental improvisation employed within the ragas.

Zappa does use elements of Jazz in a lot of his music.
The "intricate precision" playing is more representative of his love of avant-garde based symphonic orchestration imo.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

GangstaFam said:

i like the stuff he did on C-NOTE the best. the soundcheck instrumentals. gorgeous.

i like parts of Xpectation, too, but sometimes it gets a little too precious for me.

N.E.W.S. i really like, but i have to be in the mood for it. it can get a little "noodly" for me, but if i'm in the right frame of mind, "noodly" = "hypnotic" or "meditative"

madhouse? i'm still warming up to those projects, even after all these years. i wish i had 16 on CD, because i like it more than i like 8. 24 is interesting, too.

i haven't heard much miles. i'm certain if i knew more about the "geography" of his catalog, i'd find a period i really like, and i could expand from there. he got a little "smooth jazz" there around the end, right?

theAudience said:

yeah, i know zappa was a huge fan of varese, and you can hear it in just about everything he recorded. i don't really think listening to zappa is a "true" jazz experience (whatever that is), though i do have to give credit to the jazz musicians he collaborated with, and how they contributed to his music.

i love the improvisation that goes on in shankar's ragas, though everything sounds and feels so interconnected to me when i listen to his recordings. it's like i can put myself in it and swim around in the music.

i know miles had some pretty conceptual stuff, though i never know where to start, or if starting with the more conceptual pieces might ruin my enjoyment for the less formal recordings. probably not, but...?

Great discussion guys.

I have a lot more I might add, but I'm exhausted, sunburned and stuffed beyond belief. I look like one of those tomato pincushions.

But I'd definitely like to gather my thoughts and dip back in tomorrow. Keep it up.

Anx said:

Aw hell to the naw...



...Back! Back Vlad!

Seriously though, tunes like Human Nature and Time After Time might border on that territory.
However, there was never an album full of that kind of stuff and even on those tunes the arrangements were never as lame as most of the snooze-jazz stuff.

tA

Tribal Disorder

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theAudience said:

so i wonder if appreciating miles' later stuff is a bit like appreciating bowie's more recent records after getting to know albums like "low" and "station to station"? the classic stuff kinda puts the later stuff in perspective?

Anx said:

That's probably a good way to look at it.

I've said this before. The uninitiated that listen to the mid/latter periods of Jazz artists like Miles, Coltrane, Cecil Taylor or Sun Ra probably think, "What are these fools doing. They're just making noise."

Little do they know that every one of these artists started out playing very traditional, very disciplined forms of the genre.
You could say that they proved they knew the rules before they broke the rules.

I'm prepping something for you. Keep an eye on your orgnotes.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

Anx said:

That picture is hysterical.

And Miles' later stuff is the only period of his career I'm not really familiar with. He has SO much music that I've had to prioritize what seems most vital to me. First I got into his albums from the 50's-70's individually. Now the box sets. I still don't have anything after Pangaea/Agharta though and those are from '75/'76. I know what you mean about the geography of his career. It can be difficult to map out, especially since most of it is before our time. I've found that if I take it in chunks or eras, I digest it AND appreciate it much more. And just like your favorite singers, I've found that once you lock into a soloist's sound, the rest is gravy. I guess what I mean is that I can appreciate or even love some of Prince's mediocre or average work, or stuff that doesn't necessarily suit me because it's Prince and I love his style, his voice, his musicianship. The same has been true for Miles. Even though I prefer his late 60's/early 70's music over the rest, I've fallen in love with the sound of his trumpet. Because of that, I can appreciate him in almost any environment.

theAudience said:

Jealous!

GangstaFam said:

Why? You've got damn near everything Miles has ever done.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

I dunno. I have no idea what you were even gonna note him about. I just know it's gonna be delicious.

GangstaFam said:

You sir, have found the key to the kingdom.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

Anx said:

"an ear for " is important" but that can be developed. It's good to have, first, a mind for. Not the "mind" that can break down the components because, as you say, you can become too analytical.

You need the mind that's open enough to experience without prejudice. If you get into "A Love Supreme" you've already done this. That's the essence of a mans soul speaking, and you heard and understood. Some people don't.

Some people only "get it" because they're afraid to admit that they don't.

Just like with a painting, you may not fully understand the components that make it good but you know whether you like it or not...you know if it speaks to you. It may be that the work of an unknown artist that sells on a local street corner speaks louder than a Picasso. If you connect to work on this level...then that's a good first step to experiencing art.

The technical stuff can (and will) help on other levels of appreciation but you have to be careful not to let it get in the way.

I have to say that listening to jazz can be an almost purely visceral experience for me at times.It affects me physically more than intellectually.My heart more than my mind.

anon said:

you know, when i listen to "a love supreme", i don't even think of it in terms of "oh, i'm listening to a great jazz album". i just think of it as a great piece of music, period. i might as well be listening to a great beatles album or a classical piece i like. it just is what it is on its own merits as great music.

i think you're right on with your post.

Anx said:

Anx, I've been a jazz lover for nearly 15 years, and your guess is as good as mine. Here's a take from someone who can't play nor read a note.

I think to "get" jazz, one must have an open mind. It is music that is framed by a structure, interdependence and timing. And then each player takes their best shot at challenging, expanding, and often rebuilding, that "frame." It is a music that works with and against itself. And the ultimate coup is that the music is never heard the same by any given person.

Everyone is capable of "getting" jazz. Because it creates something new so you can make something new of it.

theAudience said:

thanks!

and i think just the opposite when i hear later work by some of these artists. i think it sounds kinda TOO conventional. but i think that happens with a lot of prolific artists when they get into their later years. not all, but a lot. i feel that way when i've listened to latter-day miles stuff. it doesn't seem to have edge or a lot of originality happening...but maybe i'm not listening for the right things. or maybe i am!

..each side of the head.

theghostoftonym said: