Read a great article recently talking about the state of Producers now compared to the 70's-90's. Mainly what this article pointed out was that the job of a producer is to bring out something in an artist that is unique, obviously that is clearly lagging today. With the death of Arif Mardin i think we are reminded of what a producer can do, Arif responsible for bringing the Bee Gees to whole new career in the 70's, of course Arif was responsible for Norah Jones too, and another classic Album, "Abandoned Luncheonette" from Hall and Oates,these 3 examples show the depth of a producer too, the only way i would know Arif produced these would be if i was told he did. Not today, i know right off the bat whats a Puffy, JD, Neptunes or Timbaland production, though these producers may be called hitmakers there is NO diversity in what they do, also becuase of the lack of diversity of the artist they work with and the fact that they as Producers are afraid to push the envelope at all and go against mainstream. Im not saying there are no good producers anymore, though they are pretty scarce right now. I think when we look back at this decade, we will view it as the "Producer" decade, too bad there wasnt anyone willing to take chance with their production and bring out a "Jive Talkin" or "Shes Gone", sure todays artists are pretty bad, but the producers are right along side them.

lastdecember said:

If it's not a button, many of todays producers don't know how to push it.

That's a large part of the problem.

I agree. Well said. However, I think Rick Rubin is incredibly underrated. I've been consistently impressed with his output. I'm not sure what he does in the studio (some say not much) but he consistently brings out the best in the artists that he works with. There's a reason the Chili Peppers keep returning. And the work he did with Johnny Cash, Tom Petty, and even Neil Diamond is unbelievable.

Puffy - were it not for Mary's masterpiece, MY LIFE, I would completely write him off.

lastdecember said:

Well as i said there are a few that can get it done, I would def put Rick Rubin in that category, for what he brings out of artists.

I would also have to put Nigel Goodrich and Martin Terefe in this category for their with Paul McCartney and a-ha on their recent works, its all about bringing out the best in an artist, Nowadays, Producers tend to wanna create their own "sound" instead of creating something unique.

lastdecember said:

I hinted at this in the Arif Mardin R.I.P. thread.
How can you pretend to "produce" someone's music if you have no real musical understanding.

Arif Mardin skillfully Produced (capital P) music ranging from Pop to Jazz to Country.
I'd like to see some of today's "beat-makers" do that.

Luckily, I got to hear him speak last year in NYC where he was inducted into the TEC Awards Hall of Fame...



...His award was presented by none other than his former boss at Atlantic Records, Ahmet Ertegun (on the left) another legend.

Chaka Khan...



...performed Through the Fire in his honor.



tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

don't blame the producers, blame the consumers.

theAudience said:

Ahmet! He's being honoured at Montreux next week.

sinisterpentatonic said:

and those who think they have talent..
and those who do not bring a unique-ness to the pop media!

lastdecember said:

Agreed with everything you said.There was a time when we had truly talented producers out there,taking artists to new heights.I'm thinking of folks like Quincy Jones,Gamble and Huff,Maurice White,Arif Mardin,Freddie Perrin,etc.These days,we have many non-musicians who are somehow considered producers (Jermaine Dupri,P.Diddy,etc).That's why much of today's music is so weak and uninspired.There's no depth,no creativity anymore.

Although I enjoy a neptunes production, i hate that you can hear it a mile away.
It's true a prodcer can pull a great record out of the worst artists.
Paula Abdul's "Spellbound" album is a great example. one of the best pop albums of the 90's and the type that someone needs to make for Britney or Paris

My idea of a great producer is someone like a David Foster or Burt Bacharach - someone who can actually go on stage and PLAY the songs they wrote/produced. I keep hearing how Missy Elliot, for instance, is such a great producer. What exactly does she do? I can see writing lyrics, maybe - what else? Does she play an instrument? What about Jermaine Dupri? Dr. Dre? Timbaland?

And I don't mean playing AT an instrument. I mean being able to have a legitimate command of an instrument.

The term "producer" used to refer to the person who booked studio time, hired the right musicians and it was his responsibility to oversee that the recording process of an album didn't overcede its budget set by the record company. Somehow in the recent times producer has started to mean the person who does the backing tracks on FruityLoops for the actual signed artist to rap over.

A producer should not have anything to do with having a "legitimate command of an instrument". It distorts the roles of the proper order of commercial music production and even a "producer" who indeed does the instrumental parts of a song can be quite a threat to the success of such a big financial project such as releasing a mainstream pop record. Especially if young musicians aspire to be "producers" and have no grasp how much responsibility they have over the artists.

They are nothing but overpaid "DJs" and since computers are mixing the samples for them, they don't even have the talent that a DJ has.

Novabreaker said:

Right. It's frustarting for me on this forum all the talk about producers and production (esp. MJ-heads who try to discredit Q) and have no idea what production is all about.
In the good ol days it went like this: You had a songwriter and the song. The song is nothing more than the lyrics and melody; you had the arranger(s) who dictated the notes and chords played on the instruments. This is what we call a "track" today and remixes and nothing more than a new arrangement. In fact, arrangers are the unsung heros of the old school music we love so much, usually misdirecting our praise towards the songwriter or producer; the musicians, of course; then the producer, who was the overseer of it all, budget included; and of course the artist(s).

lastdecember said:

AMEN!

Ramonachris said:

Yeah, but he only works with older artists. Legends who've fallen on hard times. None of that stuff got played on radio. Where are the producers trying to bring out the best in NEW artists?

Adisa said:

In the old days the FIRST thing you had to have was the song. Without that you had nothing. Now a song is the LAST thing they worry about. It's beats first and then the artist can put almost anything on top of that and it's considered acceptable. Arrangers indeed were the unsung heroes of the recording process although a lot of times, like at Muscle Shoals the band would come up with an arrangement themselves whilst AT the session. But they had to have a decent song to start with.
I believe that you can get great results from any method of working and you should never get too rigid in your idea of the RIGHT way to work because there's no such thing. However, the music business seriously screwed itself when it did away with this method of working and we've been suffering the consequences ever since.

Madonna is an underrated producer!


*may the hostilities begin...*

I somewhat agree about the producers but I'd say it's the lousy TASTE of consumers that ultimately responsible for the garbage that is put out. People don't buy cheap ass cars that don't work.....why do they settle for the crappy music? I don't get it.

sinisterpentatonic said:

$$$$$ post. If these lame ass teenagers as well as some older folks who are
trying to be down with the lame ass p.shitty and the worst rapper to ever
touch a mike nelly were musically inclined and not buy this bullshit,the
music industry wouldn't be Phucked up as it is.

Graycap23 said:

Another $$$$ post!! Great producers are people of yesteryear like Q,Curtis Mayfield,James Anthony Carmichael(Commodores,Atlantic Starr),Maurice White,David Foster,etc.
Remember the good old days when lp's were the norm.You would get a good album
once a year from your favorite artists like ewf,confunkshun,barkays,slave,chaka khan,etc.because the music was so wonderfully produced and back then you could spread 16 good songs from these artists over 2 albums in a period of 2 years. Back then music was !!

Novabreaker said:

Since you're quoting me, I must respond: in the traditional sense of what it means to be a record producer, I can see where you're coming from; however, the producers I mentioned in no way "distorted the roles of the proper order of commercial music production and even a "producer" who indeed does the instrumental parts of a song can be quite a threat to the success of such a big financial project such as releasing a mainstream pop record.". There is no black and white when it comes to music - there are exceptions to the rule. And besides, what's wrong with "having a legitimate command of an instrument"? We are talking about MUSIC.

JesseDezz said:

It's actually quite simple. The contractual practices of how people get paid for their work and how they manage to keep the copyrights for their songs stem from the older days of the industry and these roles do not work equally for all participants if the same terminology is used also in legal interpretation of the contracts (and it always is). Of course I really could personally care less do mainstream artists and their producers make one million off their record or several millions. But like I said, if somebody who notices his talent in "beat-making" and think a career as "a producer" is something worth aspiring for - why is it exactly that this person should get handed out also the responsibility to oversee the recording process and make the final calls on all the stylistic choices and how the budget is used? It's silly.

Simply put, the terminology needs to be renewed.



Well, I could just as well say it would be preferred for them to possess a legitimate command of a computer mouse. You just said above that "there is no black and white when it comes to music". Stick to it.
[Edited 6/28/06 21:40pm]

Novabreaker said:[quote]

JesseDezz said:

Man, just put a fork in it with your need to feel superior behind the keys of a computer and a screename. I stand by what I said, and this back and forth ain't gonna change a thing. And quit with the snarky/nasty remarks - you're an adult (I hope) - act like it.

JesseDezz has spoken

JesseDezz said:

Stupid. Quit "your need to feel superior behind the keys of a computer and a screename" if you can't hold a decent argument. You're an adult - act like it.
[Edited 6/30/06 13:16pm]

where's Nile Rodgers when you need him?

Novabreaker said:

So now you're quoting me - I knew you wanted to be like JesseDezz. It's okay - you have my blessings Now, go back over to the General Discussion Forum where you belong.