whoknows said:

Never heard of Rachelle Ferrell? Where were you in the early 90s?

[Edited 6/23/06 17:58pm]

AlexdeParis said:

In London, the same place I am now. Maybe she was huge in the US, but she can't have been here, 'cos I would have heard of her. I'm gonna check a sample in a minute and see what I think.

Alicia Keys is a very decent vocalist and a really good (but not outstanding) piano player, but you have to remember how her hype began compared to other artists that were hyped as the next big thing.

I remember Whitney Houston's debut, and while I was floored by her music, she was going up on the charts against Bruce Springsteen, Prince, Madonna, Michael Jackson, U2, Duran Duran, Lionel Richie, Phil Collins and the final crest of the New Wave acts (Simple Minds, Tears For Fears, a-ha). So while she definitely made a huge splash on the charts, she couldn't overcome the star power of the aforementioned acts.

Fast forward to 1990 when Mariah Carey made her debut. She was also hyped as the next big thing, but many people labed her as a Whitney wannabe. Plus she was still competing against Madonna, Bon Jovi, Guns 'N Roses, U2, R.E.M., plus the last wave of hair metal and the heyday of hip hop (Public Enemy, N.W.A., De La Soul, LL Cool J). Once again, Mariah, like Whitney did earlier, had a splashy debut, but she didn't particularly stand out against who was huge at the time.

Now consider the circumstances of Alicia Keys' debut. When she released her debut single and album, remember who she was competing against - all of that teen pop, nu-metal, and crappy hip-hop. Considering that her album was up against the Backstreet Boys and N'Sync, who were already beginning to wane in influence, Britney Spears, who everyone knew was manufactured, Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, 98 Degrees, Jessica Simpson, and also the fact that R&B stations were almost exclusively playing hip-hop at this time (nearly all of it about bling bling and bitches and hoes), and she pretty much looked like the second coming of Aretha Franklin. Plus she was very telegenic to middle America, so it was no wonder that she was overhyped. In addition, CD sales began their precipitous decline that year due to Napster and other digital downloading, and she was one of the few artists who had any significant record sales that year. It's no wonder that the music industry proclaimed her as the next big thing.

BlaqueKnight said:

Again, as usual, my boy Blaque is on point. I saw Alicia at The Wiltern during Grammy week the first year she cleaned house. I was sorta looking for a Roberta Flack styled artist, which would have been off the hook. I hadn't heard her album, just her singles, which I couldn't get with. The only reason I went was because I went with this girl who had passes. The P version of "How Come" which SHOULD have been a breeze for a female who plays piano to pull off, she didn't even come close. It sounded awkward and un-natural and forced. I don't doubt that she didn't really dig the song, but it came across as trying to gain credibility by covering a Prince b-side. I got the notion of the next Roberta Flack crap from all the hype the media was building up about Alcia. Hell, I thought, at least she dresses like Roberta Flack did in the early 70's. Live, although I thought she had talent for someone her age, it was far from any form of a prodigy and NO where near Roberta Flack status, no female Stevie Wonder and all the other way out comments the media was pushing. She STILL needs to do other songwriter's material and she should definately, at the very most, co-write with some seasoned veterans. Her material, more than anything, exposes her weaknes. Everyone knows why she's the media's darling and it's her looks. Her album was waay below par with India's but India doesn't look like Alicia and Alicia fit's America's standard of what beauty is. Still, as far as talent, Alicia can't hold a candle to Arie, but sadly, we all know it's not just about that. Because if it was, India would have had those awards and not got shut down like she did.

I had a discussion with some musicians the other night whom all seem to LOVE Alicia Keys. I believe her 2 have some decent talent but she is way overrated in my opinion.

The following is why I believe her to be overrated:
1. Almost half of her songs are based on old classics regardless of how clever she tries 2 hide that fact.
2. Her voice during live performances ALWAYS goes out of key in EVERY song.
3. Her piano playing is very suspect 2 me. It's like she knows a hand full of chords and that's it. I'm not impressed with her CHOPS at all.

What do you guys think? I believe that if she were not CUTE, she would not be considered as "good" as she is. I'll take India Arie over Alicia everyday of the week.

Graycap23 said:

I wouldn't say so. She came along at a time when R&B was in a backslide. She was the only black woman to sing and play that style of music since Roberta Flack. While she did not start off as a great singer,she has grown. Most of today's artist have some kind of an effect laid on their voices, this includes Mariah. Besides, tell me who out there really is? Mariah? no.....Lauren? not always. Alicia has also gone on to produce and write for other artist like, Christina Agullara, Keyshia Coles,Usher, and Chris Brown just to name a few. She is also doing something else, she has introduced a lot of kids to the piano, classical music as well as the classics....All without shaking her rump. About her being a "musical prodigy", she was. She started playing at the age of 5 then went on to perfect her talent. She is a legit talent. In an industry that has been lacking talent, people will indeed hype up the next best thing. Alicia, has been the exception to the rule.

shorttrini said:

Good points.

Graycap23 said:

I wouldn't say so. She came along at a time when R&B was in a backslide.

Graycap23 said:

...except India.Arie is better in just about every way conceivable.

shorttrini said:

Yes, and she was symptomatic of the backslide. Only at a time of such lowered standards could such a wannabe be mistaken for a true artist. As for her writing for other artists; so what? If the songs are garbage then who cares? Just one more sign of her rampant ego.

Two things,

1) Prince has played with this hack no-talent goofy-looking wanna-be at Paisley Park no less. Despite this, Prince of all people *has* to know this girl ain't shit. Man, Prince mind don't never stray too far from the bottom line and keeping his career relevant. She's having a better career now than he is, she's young, has a young audience, so do the math. He can't *possibly* dig her bullshit version of "How Come You Don't Call Me Any More".

2) Anyone who lives in Los Angeles has been inundated with these monstrous nauseauting, outrageous KJLH billboards that have been up all over town with prominent headshots of both Marvin Gaye and Alicia Keyes that say "From Marvin to Alicia". OK, so now AK has contributed so much to our country and culture that not only is she referred to on a first-name only basis, but she is given equal billing with Marvin Gaye? I don't mean to start a Marvin thread, here, but Marvin Gaye was just about God incarnated on Earth as a musician. He was larger than music in so many ways. He was the soul of this country. Stevie Wonder (he owns radio-station KJLH in Los Angeles) needs to be made aware if he is not of this, and checked for employing the idiots responsible for this sacriligious billboard campaign. It is deeply offensive. Marvin is sacred. You do not fuck around with Marvin Gaye's legacy like this. AK is drunk with fantasies of being some sort of modern-day Lyn Collins for the multi-cultural masses. What a bunch of shit! She has contributed NOTHING positive to this country - all she's done is make her audience *dumber* about music and culture and America than they already were. If this were the 70s AT BEST she'd be playing to drunks at the corner bar to get by. And people that say she's cute, well...to each his/her own...but I think a move to Los Angeles is in order for some of y'all. A stint in LA will cure most of you of thinking this girl is cute.

Further, I bet if you asked the average Alicia Keys "fan" to name THREE of their favorite AK songs, most of them could not name more than one or two off the top of their heads. For crying out loud, *they* don't even *really* like her! They have just been *told* relentlessly by the media that they *should* and that they *do*, and so they *think* they do.

whoknows said:

That backslide was caused by a market that has been infultrated by wannabe artist. When Alicia appeared on the scene,there was really nobody that was really holding it down for the women....people might want to say,India but, india was doing that same ol neo classic soul thing....Hell, Maxwell, was doing that as well as Erika. As for those songs being garbage,have you listened to them, and what are you comparing them to?...Songs like, Xtina's, "Impossible", or Usher's, "My Boo". While these songs may not be classics, they are great songs, especially when they are compared to the songs that these artists had song previously. Unlike Beyounce, Alicia, does not have to rely on a gimmick to keep her in the news,(i.e, beyounce names her CD, b'day and releases it on that day,). Alicia, has been blessed with a talent. Yes, some of the melodies to her songs are similar to the oldies but, when Mirah, released "Emotions", I did not hear anyone admit that she just about stole that from the group, The Emotions, "Best of My love". Or India's, "Ready for Love" from her first CD is taken from "The first time ever I saw your face". With all that has been going on in music, there is no such thing as an original idea. What Alicia has done is take the foundation that has been built by those artist and improve on it. I would love to see those artist play a classical piece or do something that can be truly called original.

a hack providing snacks for the musically malnourished. .

whoknows said:

That's my QUOTE of the WEEK!

shorttrini said:

No, the backslide was caused by an industry focused on image over content. What you don't realise is that Alicia was as much a sign of that as anyone. Alicia had piano lessons from when she was a kid but what she wasn't taught and can't be taught is how to have something to say. You either have that or you don't and she DOESN'T. It really is a sign of musical poverty when songs as awful as "My Boo" are called "great songs"(your words). It's also a sign of what I call "the soul vacuum". Soul music has been in a coma for years now, so people are glad to hear anything that hints of a possible revival, but in the midst of that it's important not to make people out to be what they're not and Alicia has never been and will never be anything more than a hack providing snacks for the musically malnourished. Why? Because there's one teacher that all the greats and even nearly greats had which Alicia hasn't. It's called Pain. It's one of many qualities Alicia likes to fake to make you think she's the real deal. With some people it's obviously working.

So in your opinion who do u think is the one performer out there that has not fallen victim to the "image" monster? quote]

Rasaan Patterson
Mint Condition
India Arie
Eric Roberson
Martin Luther
Raphael Saadiq
Frank McComb
Rachael Ferrelle
Lalah Hathaway
Syleena Johnson
Sy Smith
Darien Brockington

In one way or another all of these artists had fallen victim to image, this is why the they are presenting themselves in the way that they are now. This is especially true about Raphael Saadiq. Remember when he was Raphael Wiggins? All of the sudden, with all of the success that "Sons of Soul" brought, he created this new imagine which included not only included changing his name but his also his religion. India, is now doing talk show theme songs, with Tyrra, so I would not call that rebelling against the imagine monster. This, is working with it. Look, Alicia is not a music savior....she never said so, unlike MJ saying that he is the "King of Pop". All she wants to do is just make music for her fans.....and I respect that.
Jonz

shorttrini said:

No, the backslide was caused by an industry focused on image over content. What you don't realise is that Alicia was as much a sign of that as anyone. Alicia had piano lessons from when she was a kid but what she wasn't taught and can't be taught is how to have something to say. You either have that or you don't and she DOESN'T. It really is a sign of musical poverty when songs as awful as "My Boo" are called "great songs"(your words). It's also a sign of what I call "the soul vacuum". Soul music has been in a coma for years now, so people are glad to hear anything that hints of a possible revival, but in the midst of that it's important not to make people out to be what they're not and Alicia has never been and will never be anything more than a hack providing snacks for the musically malnourished. Why? Because there's one teacher that all the greats and even nearly greats had which Alicia hasn't. It's called Pain. It's one of many qualities Alicia likes to fake to make you think she's the real deal. With some people it's obviously working.

Even as a musician she's over-rated. She plays piano well, but Tori Amos and Fiona Apple play circles around her. They're a hell of a lot more creative then her in terms of playing.

Alicia is talented despite all the hype about her. Overrated, it depends on how you look at it. I think all young artist(s) are put in the same catagory when they first come out. Especially when they have titles (Producer, Songwriter, & Singer). Yes! looks do have a lot of say in the music business even if you do have the talent. One thing about her is she did not have to market her body to sell records. That is a big accomplishment no matter how you may feel about her. As far as copying off other artist(s) sound. Who does not do this? Most of these singers sample every thing they put out. I think is just a matter of respect to show how much they appreciate that music & look up to the ones who inspire them to be what they are.

CynicKill said:

You might be right, but I have never heard either of them mix different styles of music. Alicia mixes classical, R&B with a touch of everything else. When it comes to classical music there is no such thing as "playing cirlces. You either know your stuff or you don't. In order to mix both styles of music you have to have some creativity....Alicia has it.

shorttrini said:

Again, I disagree profoundly. Alicia DOESN'T mix the styles. What she does is she plays the standard soul progressions, then every now and then she shows you the classical pieces she's learned in her piano lessons. That takes NO creativity. It's crass and corny. She doesn't have the imagination or the creativity to organically integrate the two.
As for the pain point, I'm afraid yes, if you look at every pioneer, you find some kind of pain driving them. James Brown said "A great man has a problem" and he knew what he was talking about. Would Stevie have done what he did if he weren't blind. If Prince was 6 feet tall and came from a stable background, do you think he'd be the great artist he is? Pain tends to refine and focus talent and give a person greater depth. And Alicia has about as much depth as a puddle on the street.