Brother915 said:

Good point. The same axiom applies in movies when you see more than 3 screenwriters. That's a sign of rewriting when the orignals have been canned or moved on. You'll find the ending has been "tacked on" and has a "inorganic" feel to the overall dramatic flow.

NatTurner said:

Poor guy. Looks like you got overlaid by July's post

Here's my theory... the album is a piece of shit.

Clubkid said:

LOL theories must be based on observable measurable facts.

The album could have obviously sold more, if they had pushed "Butterflies" as the first single and put out a cool video, with a more tan Jackson.

'Invincible...why i think it didnt sell'!!! ehhh, it sold 10million with 10% of the promotion michael jackson usually gets! i say thats damn near invincible, no other artist in history could sell that amount with that amount of promotion, michael jackson has proved that he still has an amazingly huge fanbase, 1 which i think madonna and prince could never have! im fed up of ppl critizing michael jackson constantly, when was the last time some1 said something positive about him! its so sad, ppl find it easier 2 critisize than 2 praise! if u dont think michael jackson is talented u obviously havent heard "billie jean", "beat it", "smooth criminal", "heal the world", "earth song", "who is it", dirty diana", "stranger in moscow", "speechless" and why dont u have a read at "dancing the dream" or read it from the internet, if thats not genius i dont know what is!!

ZaZa said:

Little Richard,Verdine White,Louis Johnson,Smokey Robinson,Berry Gordy,Donnell Jones,Jermaine Dupri,Mariah Carey,The O'Jays,Teddy Pendergrass,Nile Rodgers,Eminem,&some other folks.

DavidEye said:

Speechless was too Sappy for me.but He easily with even half way decent Promotion would have done even more.

DavidEye said:

Classic Post MAN.

Supernova said:

Folks need to Leave OJ alone.OJ catches Hell because He did what White People do all the time Fight the System with Loot&a Strong Legal Team that Freed Him.I still Feel OJ is Innocent&I feel that it's Racial because folks can't stand to see a Black Man Fight For His Justice.OJ got Issues but His Case was Settled&a Bunch Of Haters can't let go.The Man should be able to go on with His Life.I Liked Him as a Football Player&truth be told didn't pay Him much Mind off the Field because He Shucked&Jived all the time.I Knew How He was getting over.but I don't trip on Juice.I respect what He did as a Player&Can live with the Verdict&I wish others would as well?

FunkyBrotha said:

besides for the music scene chaning sooo drastically since history, mj even got a grammy nomination and still shifted more albums than paul or mick jagger.
it could and would've sold more if promation was there. can u imagine how much it would have sold if the promation was the same as history???

ppl. just hate him cos he don't play no insturment on stage. ( he plays them while he is making records!) or they think he is gay,child molestor,and had too much plastic surgery.

FunkyBrotha said:[quote]'Invincible...why i think it didnt sell'!!! ehhh, it sold 10million with 10% of the promotion michael jackson usually gets! i say thats damn near invincible, no other artist in history could sell that amount with that amount of promotion.

Why are people still saying he had no promotion? A Million bands would KILL for the promotion Michael Jackson gets.
Most artists have to tour their ASSES off, try and win fans with as many interviews with radio and TV as they can do in a day.
And Michael? He gets a ABC special. A mega video/movie with Chris Tucker. MTV and VH1 play all sorts of old MJ specials to remind people of his greatness. What more do you want??

If MJ really wanted to break this album, he could have got off his ass and said, "I want to tour the world and show people I still have it". But he didn't. Tough shit for him.
If he isn't going to do any "work himself" in promoting his own music, and think that his reputation will sell millions of records for him, then he got what he deserved.

Brother915 said:

not always the case.Santana had alot of Producers Involved with His Last album.MJ had alot of different Producers on "History.in fact He has always worked with a Bunch of folks&it really hasn't hurt Him.Madonna on Her "BedTime Stories" Album had quite a few folks there.and to put this into Better Perspective: check out most of the Rap Albums over the past 5 Years? you get alot of different Producers on a Project.the truth is: the days of a All JAm&Lewis,Quincy Jones,Teddy Riley,etc.. are long gone.David Foster for instance has at least always seems to do Projects with at least 3-5 other Producers on projects.it becomes a Problem when say the last SWV Album had alot of Producers&Rappers overtaken there Album&Making them Essentially Background Singers on there Own Album.now that is a Problem.but nowadays very Rarely do you get a Self-Contained Album on a Major Label.

giotto said:

I'd dig it if He dropped a Album this Year but He hasn't done anything like that since His Early CBS/Sony days&once He Sold a Ton of Records off One Album you get the Formula you have had since "Off The Wall" a Gap of at least 3 years.He might Sell well if He comes with the Right Stuff.but what happen with "Thriller" was a Career in One&that just doesn't happen usually at all if Ever?

The album is not great, but it's bad either.My favorite
song off it is Speechless.

lemoncrush said:

I agree with you. MJ did the TV special, a couple of interviews and that was it. He went back to Neverland and waited for the sales figures to come in. He has not toured the U.S. in at least 10 years.

His management should have talked to him and gotten him to do at least a few dates in the U.S., hitting major cities. He could have done the same kind of tour that Madonna did: a limited tour of the U.S. and Europe hitting a few key cities.

MJ still has a core audience in the U.S. Sales of Invincible in the U.S. is about 2 million, the same as Mariah Carey sells. If MJ wants big sales, he has to make people care about his music again.

Merely selling "units" is not enough. Gross sales must not only exceed production and promotion costs, but they must exceed or match projected sales to show growth. It's called "return on investment" which is, basically, the cost of doing business. SONY spent so much on a TV special and all because they expected INVINCIBLE to sell through the roof! Upon release, charts indicated that thing was dying a fast death in its headlong crash crash the charts, so they pulled the plug on expenses to MJ to stop the bleeding!. It wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't spent so much on production and promotion.

Like Prince, Michael needs to have a more sophistciated way of handling his business. This amounts to little more than a public temper tantrum. I would agree that if he had bothered to tour instead of that antiseptic soulless, celebrity-filled obnoxious TV special he would have been able to cultivate an audience for his music.


And so it goes...

PFunkjazz said:

what u said was very interesting!

subyduby said:

Sony had nothing to do with that TV Special.MJ did that on His own with His Personal Crew.they didn't even know about it.they didn't allow Him to Have Singles released,Only One Video&that was the Edited Version because they wouldn't allow the Longer Version to Be Shown.it's really Cleaver How Sonny&Tommy Mottola Pulled this Off.but they Knew since MJ was getting His Masters&they couldn't get the full ATV Catelog or there 50% Sony Catelog Back they were gonna Freeze Him out&do it in a Smooth way because nowadays you don't have to put out a Single to Have Hits&you can do it a High-Tech way without even being Called on it.but I've watched everytime MJ drops a Project&MJ without 4 Videos on a Album Project or the Hype being directed Your Way is Like Fred Flinstone wearing Shoes? it doesn't happen.

I agree with you mistermaxx, SONY had nothing to do with that concert specials at all (where were all the ads)...when I watched the Celine speical their were heaps! SONY didn't spend $30 million on that album because these days labels don't want to spend that kind of money on an artist. That was spin on their part and if they were so supportive like they claimed to be why didn't they commercially release any singles in the US? So far we are only getting 1 side of the story (from SONY's point of view...this from a label that has been known in the last 25 years to rip off their artists...shit Earth, Wind and Fire are still chasing them for royalites dating back to 1975!!!) and I think there is more to this. I may be a Prince fanatic but I also like MJ and I think he is being unfairly treaded by the media, just because he had the nerve to tell it like it is (that Mottola guy tried to destroy Mariah last year and he is doing it to Micahel via the press)! Sure MJ has made it very easy for them (due to his poor judgement in people, decision making and bad PR) but I think what he is saying is of substance and after reading all the articles about how shady these record labels are towards their aritsts and the tatics they use to discredit them etc I still believe in him (like I do with Prince).
[This message was edited Fri Jul 26 21:47:12 PDT 2002 by fonkywonder]

mistermaxxx said:

Regardless of the the outome of that case, I have no use for the phoney, wife-beating fool that is OJ Simpson. And I have no sympathy for him about the backlash and pariah status he has attained since then. He made his bed, and he'll lie in it forever.
[This message was edited Fri Jul 26 22:08:12 PDT 2002 by Supernova]

Fonkywonder and mistermaxx are both probably right: Sony may not have paid for the production costs of the TV concert special, but it still amounts to promotional expenditures that MJ would expect Sony to reimburse.

mistermaxxx said:

I agree that O.J. just played the system something that has gone on with whites for years in the U.S., ie. Emmit Till, The bombing in B-ham, etc. etc. etc. However I'm African American and it pisses me off that Blacks are always there to take up for a person who when they gain acceptance from the mainstream try to distance themselves from the people there were there for them before they crossed over. It amazes me how we will defend OJ or excuse him to the hilt just because whites overreact to the verdict. Wrong is wrong OJ and Michael Jackson are two examples of people that did not want anything to do with being identified as black because they had been accepted by whites (only in terms of entertaining them) but when the mainstream turned on them they used the black/racism excuse to have support from someone. Af. Americans are too forgiving of people that don't give a shit about us when we are on top. Mrmax u need to read Michael Eric Dyson's Rules, or anything written by Cornel West/Bell Hooks, and maybe u would think about the people u so adamently defend.

Urbanhang22 said:

Michael Eric Dyson's Race Rules

Urbanhang22 said:

what makes you think I don't? I have quite a few Books on Michael Eric Dyson&He gives MJ Props as a Artist.He had some Interesting Comments for OJ as well.if you Must Know I Have Books on Nikki Giovanni,Cornell West,Mayou Angelou,Charlayne Hunter-Gault,June Jordan,Toni Morrison,Tony Brown,Randell Robinson(The Debt American Owes Black People)Panther Books,Dick Gregory,Alex Hailey,Donald Goines,Earl Hutchinson(He wrote a Cool Essay on MJ&OJ&Mike Tyson.Nathan Mccall Books as well among others.AM I Black Enough For You Yet???

Urbanhang22 said:

OJ was Respected as a Player on the Field.He had Black Love from Many Folks back in the day&the Guy May Play Like Carlton Banks on Tv but Dude Came from the Hood.He got Schooled on acting like that.I don't know what is in OJ's Heart.He knows He is Black but He Picked to live Life on Selected terms&it came back on Him.as for MJ: Michael Jackson has taken Care of His Family Period.that is Very Black&speaks Volumes.if MJ had have gone to Europe&turned On His Family&Cut them Off then I could see something shady on Him but MJ has Payed the Bills&Taken Care of His Family.MJ has Issues but I Never got the Feeling MJ wasn't trying to Be down.and I'll say this for them Both: OJ used the Hustle to Keep His Loot&and as Long as He doesn't work nobody can't touch His Pension.as for MJ: well that was Cold Pimpin" 50%ATV Publishing,50% Sony Publishing&His Masters?? now that is Pimping IMHO.

it didn't sell coz it's poo!

mistermaxxx said:

Yeah, but you don't have a cohesive album that flows well. That was the point I was trying to make. When you got a whole lot of producers on one album(let's say 7 producers), you have different styles, it doesn't make for a solid cohesive statement ( sometimes the result can be a hideous mess). A lot of hardcore Santana fans hate the SUPERNATURAL album for this reason. It's an ok record IMHO. OFF THE WALL is a classic album. One producer, one artist coming up with some solid material. The album flows well very well from track to track.

NikkiDarling said:

MJ haven't toured the entire US since 1988 (THE BAD TOUR). I saw this tour and enjoyed it alot. Michael proved himself as an ultimate showman. One of the highlights of that tour was his amazing performance of "Human Nature" and bring-the- house-down peformance of "Man In The Mirror" at the end of the concert.

PFunkjazz said: