Now to simply state that the album is a piece of crap as so many have done on this site is not fair. Actually the album is not that bad overall, it's just that it is nothing special. Honestly if someone hadn't released an album of all-new material(I don't count Blood on The Dance Floor) in over 6 years you would expect something fresh, hungry, going in a new direction etc. However this album is weighed down with too many producers, over the hill producers at that. Think about it for a second Babyface, Rodney Jerkins, and Teddy Riley contributed to this album. Babyface hasn't really done anything noteworthy in Pop music (this is what this is Pop Music) since the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack, Jerkins was hot in the late nineties however is sound has become repetitive, and Teddy Riley, come on Riley's sound played out honestly with the Dangerous album, Blackstreet and Guy's reuinion were a waste of my ears. I think the album was a let down, and music has drastically changed since Michael Jackson last had a hit. Think about it we have gone through the resurgence of soul music since HIStory was released, and the pop music landscape is dominated for some time by boy bands, Britney Spears, Christina A., Ricky Martin, Usher, Destiny's Child etc.etc.etc. So Michael Jackson releases an album targeted at people who do not remember him as a dark-skinned black man, and some that weren't even born when he was in his heyday. To all of those record buyers he is nothing more than a freak that is trying to be cool (If you actually talk to teens this is the way they see him). Now the media has helped in destroying Jackson's image however a great deal of it he did himself. I was a die hard Michael Jackson fan until I got into Prince. It's not that I do not like Michael Jackson, I actually feel he is one of the greatest Pop artist of all time. However, he hasn't grown with me. His songs are still about the same old things, absolutely nothing. His lyrics speak of a man that is afraid of women or he actually still gets butterfiles (dude you are 44 next month). There is no maturation process. He has lost touch with his audience because as well all now as we grow our taste changes and the older we get many people do not purchase albums every week. We are not concerned as much with MTV, BET, VH1, who has the #1 album etc. etc. etc. I simply wish Michael Jackson would make an album that shows his point of view as a man that will be 44 in August. I'm tired of the same old thing that everyone else is doing except is supposed to be special because it came from Michael Jackson. It did not suprise me that Invincible lagged in sales because times have changed, the pop audience has all of the abovementioned to fill the void and fans of the other genres have D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Musiq, Miles, Norah Jones, etc. etc. etc. Now some may say that Prince's audience has left him the same way and it has, however people are now appreciating Prince for his artistry and musicianship. Look at how highly regarded he is among the true musicians of today's music and you see the lasting impression his work has left and Prince's last album received immense critical acclaim and so did his last tour. How often do we hear Michael Jackson mentioned in this light??? Lastly for all the Michael Jackson fans that post here, I agree he is a talented entertainer, but he needs to stop following trends, grow with the times and stop trying to have the success Madonna continues to enjoy because the rules are different for her.

u are right about the age span and invincible album was not his best. it was good according to my teacher and by me, but not his best. so many different types of music has reemerged.

i was thinking about what u said about him being afraid of women! i was thinking how his songs are about loving endlessly ( children,innocnece, purity) or about someone who tries to hurt him( the tabloids or women).

maddy goes underground for her inspirations and mj works with the "best". it took maddy 2 flop albums which sold 5million-7million to get respected and be famous again. even with that, she isn't feared as she was back in the 80s. she may have #1s and have successful albums and tours, but she really isn't something to fear about. she is around the corner on sales like britney.

for all that we may not know is that maddy would mess up her careers if she tries to follow trends( according to her fans at an mj and maddy forum).

i don't want him making an album like he is a 44 year old man. he should make songs that do cross-over but have songs that don't seem as forced. by working with all these "hot" producers, he shows that he really needs them. a lot of mj fans think that his own composing, or producing is much better than the ones he work with.

A so-called musical genius should not be putting out music that any run of the mill boy band or pop artist could release.
Which proves Michael Jackson is no musical genius. He's not even a musician.
Invincible was run of the mill crap.
Give it up MJ fans. Prince is better. Prince is a REAL musical genius and a true artist.

Well done, UrbanHang.

Check out the essay on Prince and Michael Jackson. It's excellent.
I believe Michael Jackson will just fade away and Prince will gain more and more respect in the years to come.

shygirl said:

i read that article on a train, it proved the same points a similar article i read on mj and other artists including prince. both proved why prince and others have been forced out of the public's eyes.

being a musician doesn't cut the only standard of what is real or talented. nor does breaking records. but having successful albums and tours does make one indisputed.

subyduby said:

Yes, Britney and Backstreet are verrry special in the long run.

Once again shygirl is wisegirl!

shygirl said:

I Truly Don't Understand why Even Bother talking about Michael Jackson here? He won't get a Fair Shot here at all no matter what."Invincible" was Better than Average but Not on Par with His Best but still better than alot of Crap out now.nowadays all you need is 2-3 Songs to Blow up MJ had at least 5 Solid Songs On His Last Album.but Why even Mention Him just to Rip Into Him?what does it Prove?One thing I Gotta Say: Everybody in Show Business is a Entertainer Soem just do it Better than Others but it's all a Show in Front of Our Eyes off Stage it's all Business.Loved Or loathed You Don't Last 30 plus Years especially as a Child Artist in that Business without Having Respect.MJ has Peer Respect.maybe not as many as Other Artists or Acts but He gets Props from Some folks in the Biz.

mistermaxxx said:

I agree with some of your points however I have to ask what made Invincible different from the releases of the young pop artists today? The only difference I see is that it came from Michael Jackson so it has to be better when in actuality its not.

Oriental stupidity… , your idol has constantly used the media to make believe that the was normal, that he was so innocent when obviously we deal with a shark ( the Beatles rights, the pedophilia story, the vitiligo fairy tale, the charity circus…), after the Lisa Marie Presley fiasco (after the divorce she said that their sexual life was close to zero)he has virtually paid to have children just to prove that he was “normal”…
If you weren’t so incredibly ignorant you will know the existence of great records: The Police’s Synchronicity, The Clash’s London Calling, Peter Gabriel’s So, Marvin Gaye ‘s What’s Goin on, Bob Marley’s Exodus… these albums have sold each many many less than Thriller but are here forever to inspire new generations of musicians and music lovers while jackson is the model for the emptiness (britney, n’sync & co) that you’ve got between your 2 ears.

subyduby said:

Urbanhang22 said:

That's partly true when you think about Michael Jackson's hand in creating the emptiness that has consumed music today. Now all people want to do is make a great video and mediocre song with a strong repetitive hook. If you really think back on Michael Jackson's solo albums outside of "Off The Wall" which was his best IMHO, what would his music have sounded like if we didn't have the visual representations to go with it?? Thriller is a stupid song but the video saved it, Bad is a terrible song but the video saved it etc. He doesn't talk about anything. You know whats so amazing on some of my other threads that I started about other up and coming artists certain people dismissed their extraordinary releases in the last 5 years yet they will take up for Michael Jackson who hasn't done anything in years. All because he's Michael Jackson. These are the same people that were criticizing Prince for his gripes with WB yet when MJ complained they act like he invented the wheel. Michael Jackson reminds me of O.J., he's only black when it's beneficial to him and as an Af. American that's insulting.

mistermaxxx said:

In almost all the music boards and newsgroups he's the hot topic lately. I'm sure he wanted it this way with his latest media blitz.


He gets props from alot of folks in the biz, but that's cuz they all worked on his albums.

Urbanhang22 said:

again what do you get out of Attacking Him? MJ&OJ are two Different Cats.but what is the Matter with OJ? where is all this coming from?Off the wall is Probably My Favorite Solo Album of His Overall but the Guy has Written or Done Great Songs since then&Before then.if somebody doesn't like His Stuff then Cool but after a While MJ gets Held to a Unreal Standard for Himself or Any Artist for that Matter IMHO.

I think people need to realize that,NO ARTIST STAYS ON TOP FOREVER! MJ has been in the business since he was 9 years old! It's absurd to think that,after all these years,he would still be able to sell massive amounts of records.He simply needs to accept reality.He still has a loyal,sizable fanbase but he needs to accept the fact that 5 million worldwide copies is how much he will sell these days (and that's nothing to sneeze at,you know).

Compared to most of his former Motown peers,Mike is actually doing pretty good.When was the last Diana Ross,Smokey Robinson or Stevie Wonder sold 5 miliion copies of an album? Compared to most of the artists who were "hot" in the 80s,MJ is also doing pretty good.When was the last time Boy George,Cyndi Lauper,or Lionel Ritchie sold 5 million copies of an album?

As far as record sales go,Mike has already done the impossible.He sold 50 million copies (worldwide) of a single album!! That is a record that NO ONE has been able to surpass.Whether or not 'Invincible' is brilliant or crap is besides the point.He will never sell like 'Thriller',no matter WHAT the record sounds like.

mistermaxxx said:

How much time you got?

Supernova said:

Well for one, PRETENDING not to know your making a PORNO is one..???

http://www.ojcaught.com

maybe selling "X" & or having Dealers over your house with your kids there is two..??

On the MJ subject:

I have gone on MJ Boards.. and I have seen 99% of their day and their posts are telling ALL the MJ Nut Cases.. to go to different links all around the web.. to "Fix" Polls.. or write columist for articles they wrote on MJ? Even though it was the columist's opinion? SO SAD.. To waste hours apon hours voting over and over for MJ .. on some dumb poll, so he doesn't "look" like a freak?

IF people think that.. let it be that, why vote yourself 500 times a week to fix polls? WHO CARES?

* It is actually sorta a few posters "job" to be on this board to try to (help) MJ's "good name".. I ain't lieing, I have read it on atleast 3 seperate message boards for "fans" to come to Prince.org and "help" MJ because people are talking about him there.

What Losers :LOL:

mistermaxxx said:

Yeah he gets props from Liz Taylor, Red Buttons, Liza Minelli, Gregory Peck - past their prime with one foot in the grave showbiz folk.

Urbanhang22 said:

I agree with this to a certain extent. I mentioned last week here that Mike's fans have grown up so he needs to do the same. I would like to spend a week with Mike to give him some career advice. I REALLY think I could put him back on the right track artistically. No yes men, no Bubbles, no bodyguards. Just me and him...MAN TO MAN...(LOL)

Usuallly when an artist brings in dozens of producers on one album,,,that's a sign of trouble.

Urbanhang22 said:

The way I see it,MOST POP MUSIC IS CRAP THESE DAYS.I mean,look at the Top 40 charts and tell me how many truly great songs you will find.So,having said that,I must say that,if I buy a CD that has at least 5 or 6 strong songs on it,I'm impressed.'Invincible' has a total of 16 tracks and there are only 4 songs that totally suck ("Privacy","Don't Walk Away","You Are My Life" and the lame title track).So,personally speaking,I am impressed with the record.I honestly haven't met ANY MJ fans that DO NOT like the songs "Butterflies","Break of Dawn","Heaven Can Wait","Whatever Happens" and "Speechless".

Mate, Teddy Riley is one of the best. Superb producer & his own music rocks too.

ZaZa said:

Surprisingly,MJ gets alot of respect from Eminem! You would think that Eminem would be bashing an artist like MJ...lol...but in a recent MTV interview,he said "Of every album that I have listened to,the best of the year has been 'Invincible'.Michael Jackson deserves a lot more credit than he is getting,one of the most influential performers of all-time."

I liked Invincible, not great but okay. I think Mike's sound has got a bit samey, he's done the whoos! and Nahhs! and human beatbox to death. I remember I really liked 'Give in to Me' on the 'Dangerous' album because it was the first song in ages that didn't have any whoos! or Nahhs! or beatbox, just raw emotive singing and that's what I reckon he needs to get back to. He should do an entire album with Quincy Jones again, get a retro sound going, that might be interesting.

It didn't sell because he's lost his impact on fans, he used to make innovative music and videos, but everyone's caught up. He should do some small venues and live TV in a raw kind of way, show what he's good at, amazing dancing and great vocal skill, get rid of the pyrotechnics and stupid costumes. If you see him in concert, if you see him sweat, he becomes a real person again.

You could say both Prince and MJ have lost the huge audiences they once had, but the difference is MJ just whines about it because it reflects his self-worth, whereas Prince doesn't really care as long as he's happy doing his own thing.

Sadly, people my age like Invincible..whereas any1 who is older or has a more mature taste in music thinks it's lame.

Brother915 said:

Im beginning 2 really dig BROTHER915!!!

I think michael jackson's reputation will follow him for the rest of his life sadly... People just get reminded of him altering his appearance, and the accusations of child sexual abuse. People dont want to be associated with those subjects. Can you imagine owning one of his albums and someone says, wow! that's a michael jackson CD! Isn't he weird, didn't he do this and this and this. By that point your embarassed to own the CD. People just don't want to think about his plastic surgery and all his issues. MJ ruined his marketable image years ago... now it's been confirmed with the lack of interest in his latest musical product...

The album moved over 1 million units.
It did sell.

Making the record buying public wait for a period of six years before deciding to release your next album will, in a twisted kind of logic, create a lot of interest in your next record. The reality is that this has been, more or less, MJ's proven ploy for the best part of two decades - and running - and has always guaranteed MJ a hefty amount of sales.

Would MJ sell as many records were he to release a follow up to "Invinvcible" before the end of 2002? I seriously doubt it.