lol,these types of discussions are pointless.It's all subjective.If you think a certain artist is a genuis,then they are a genuis.

Exactly.

Some of the comments here are so unbelievably dumb and biased towards one's own taste.
There's plenty of artists that I think deserve the genius tag even though I'm not a fan of them myself.

Like this one, heh?

Touché.

I think as Funkadelic once said "You Hit the Nail On The Head". Artistic genius isn't purely about technique or some quantifiable measurement of "versatility" or "prolificness", it's about expressing emotion and touching the listener and creating something profoundly unique and original. I think some people around here have an unusually selective/narrow definition of genius, and yes I know that the term is subjective. Prince and Stevie are great but there are many many many musicians out there who are at least as worthy of the title "genius" as they are. If we were having a debate about who was the most well-rounded multi-talented musician ever, those two would be among the prime candidates but they're hardly the only people worthy of being called genius. For one thing there are different facets in which one can be a genius: a person could be a genius at black jack but be completely incompetant at something else, likewise some musicians might be genius players, others genius songwriters, others genius producers etc., someone who's good at multiple things might be more of an all'round genius but there are many categories in which one can exhibit "genius". If I may defend a few of the people whose "genius" is being impugned here.

James Brown-C'mon people, this man is one of the primary colors of popular music of the last 50 years. All groove/rhythmically driven music owes something to him. Without him, no funk, disco, hip-hop, club, house etc. etc. He may not have been a multi-instrumental virtuoso but he invented or catalized multiple whole genres of music, I'd certainly say that qualifies.

Bob Dylan-The man nearly single-handedly made rock n roll serious music. He made it possible and acceptable for lyrics in popular music to be poetic, introspective, open to interpretation and cover just about any topic. He gave birth to folk-rock, the "singer/songwriter", and started the whole trend of growth and artistically redefining oneself. He also completely redefined what it took to be a "great singer", making singing as much about inflection and delivery as it is about notes and vocal range. And in terms of the actual "muscial" content of his songs: sure it may not be quite as "genius" as his lyrics but he did pioneer many hybrid genres of rock including folkd-rock, roots rock, and country rock and the range of styles he's covered over his career is pretty impressive.

Billie Holiday-again, maybe not an allround genius in the way that prince, stevie or whoever may be, but as a vocalist she's unquestionably a genius. I forget who said it, but it was once said "billie can sing notes most people can't even hear". The gradations, subtlety and pure uncut emotion in her voice is unequaled anywhere, and yeah she may have only written a handful of songs but Strange Fruit alone is a work of genius: hell it's practically the birth of the protest song.

Michael Jackson-Yes, he's been far more concerned with sales than art since Thriller, yes he's insane, yes he's had a lot of help in the creation of his music (when compared to one-man-everything types like prince and stevie) but the man is certainly a genius performer (especially in regards to dancing, and anyone who questions his ability just hasn't seen enough footage) and when he wants to, he's written songs that are so utterly melodically and rhythmically perfect that I have no trouble considering him a genius songwriter (even if a majorly underachieving genius songwriter).
[Edited 5/12/06 23:51pm]
[Edited 5/12/06 23:52pm]

I agree that you have to look at the context of the time of artist existed in, but still, I dont' think any of these people you mentioned qualify as geniuses. I like all the artists mentioned here but...

James Brown-Great artist, and as you said, most groove driven music owes him a debt of gratitude, but like StoneCrib said before, he's more of a trailblazer. If he were a genius, he'd still be putting out quality music, no?

Bob Dylan-Again a trailblazer. A great artist for sure, but the Beatles did more for the whole "artistic growth" thing than Dylan ever did. Maybe the term singer songwriter was invented for and/or after him, but singer songwriters have existed for hundreds maybe thousands of years. What about RObert Johnson? Leadbelly? John Dowland (rennaissance Lutenist, singer, composer)? Dylan comes more out of a tradition, and yes, he took that tradition in another direction, but he is hardly the first.

Billie Holliday- I agree that Strange Fruit is a great song, but Billie had no hand in writing it. I dont' think singing emotionally qualifies one as a genius. If it did, then every pissed of punk singer would be one too. As for that comment about her "singing notes most people can't even hear"....that's just dumb. That's like saying "B.B. King says more with one note than most people say with a million." It's one of those compliments that doesn't really mean anything.

Michael Jackson-Definitely above average as a performer and singer, but his career wouldn't be anywhere near where it is if not for folks like Quincy Jones and Rod Templeton (sp?) Without all the glitz, marketing hype, strange behavior, and money, Michael is an above average pop/R&B singer.

No offense....but where did you get your info from? Billie Holiday did indeed write "Strange Fruit' and other songs as well...It's a fact that's been stated so many times that its hard to miss; unless you are hellbent on proving a point....Again, you are hung up on the technical prowess of an artist...It's dumb to hear people say "Billie sings more notes than most people can't hear...?" Well, I believe genius is much too broad to be judged in such a manner....I will agree with you that you can't go around calling everyone a genius...But denying Billie Holiday's genius shows a limited understanding of the women's contributions....

And as far as Dylan goes, just pick up a book and read....Because apparently, you have no idea what you are talking about (again, no disrespect...) Both Lennon, Harrison and Paul Mac have stated that Dylan took them out of the dark ages...Without Dylan there would be no Revolver; That's not some shit coming from my own misinformed opinion...It's a fact coming from the artists themselves...And it's simply not trailblazing...Has Dylan had a genius period in the past 30 years? Well, maybe not... But in the '60s the man basically changed the idea of how and why rock n roll was written and conceived...He's not just an influence; he's a genuis lyricist who singlehandedly changed rock n roll and beyond...
[Edited 5/15/06 9:20am]

To make a long story EVEN shorter.....Ill say this. I read an article on "Foley" once. It was an interview done long ago and he pretty much defined the WORD "Genius" Like this:

Genius: Someone that's willing to stretch themselves more than the next guy.

Very Inspiring So really all of us have the ABILITY to be just that. But, whose willing to stretch themselves?.....ESPECIALLY, outside of your ZONE of comfort : )

That's drive and determination and tenacity...not genius.

You can have all the passion and drive in the world but if the aptitude isn't there you're not going to become genius. You can nurture it but you can't create it.

But, I’ll xplain it like this………….. Anyone that’s involved with creating outside the public scope of POPULARITY understands that we all have a choice in creating and that is………you can assimilate into the current MUSICAL society as it is and RISK being lost in the MIX…….or CREATE without the acknowledgement of the current climate where the end result is a
UNIVERSAL GROOVE everyone can dance and ADHERE 2 without having to associate with the current status QUO : )
Example:

D’angelo- Brown Sugar
NWA-Straight out of Compton
GUY(Teddy Riley)
Erykah Badu-Baduizm

Just 2 name a few…….

What these artists share in common is that they came out at a time when everybody was following the latest musical trend. They could have very well imitated what was out there, but chose to MUSICALLY “Stretch themselves more than the next guy” Then…………A MOVEMENT WAS BORN. The End result………….well you know the rest.

What we need to do is not confuse GENIUS with LEGENDARY

*laces up typing gloves*

Okay. No, BIllie Holliday DID NOT write "Strange Fruit" Read on:

http://www.pbs.org/indepe.../film.html

I have to go out, but I will leave you with that, and respond to the rest later.

Yes this is all true. But what does it have to do with genius? You say "we have a choice" Yes we can choose whether to conform or not etc...You make it seem as if you can choose genius.

"Someone that's willing to stretch themselves more than the next guy"
Sorry, that ain't genius.

Here's my response..First you are indeed correct...But there's much more to the story...Yes Abel Meeropol is credited as the songwriter for "Strange Fruit..." But the fact is the origins of the song have long been debated...Meeropol finally received the credit he deserved in the late '90s...But music historians and the song's author are in agreement that Holiday virtually made the song her own, hence the folklorian life the song has taken on its own...As for Billie Holiday's songwriting credits, the songs that she did write (she was far from a prolific songwriter) saw her only contribute lyrics...But the fact remains that Holiday remains a genius vocalist...It's a statement that's been made by other "genius artists" including Duke Ellington, Ray Charles and Miles Davis....

I think what it comes down to is folks limited definition of what constitutes genuis...Just as a opera singer can earn genius status, a vocalist who uses their voice as an instrument on par with Miles' horn, Bird's saxophone or Monk's piano and changes the musical landscape with said voice can easily be called a genius....Billie Holiday fits the mode....

lol,these types of discussions are pointless.It's all subjective.If you think a certain artist is a genuis,then they are a genuis.

Quincy Jones and Rod Temperton did fuck all for Michael Jackson. He wrote and produced awesome material before Quincy Jones and Rod Temperton and wrote and produced awesome material after Quincy Jones and Rod Temperton. Listen to all the songs Michael Jackson either wrote 100% by himself or produced 100% by himself or both. You'll find that that's his best material. Michael Jackson is the mind behind all the music he's created. People like Quincy Jones, Teddy Riley and Rodney Jerkins have just been there to pretty up his material and tell him what material to put on the album. Strip off all the sound effects and extra voices and you'll get what Michael Jackson created. All you have to do is listen to his demos and you'll find that after his producers got their hands on the songs, they didn't change much. It's about time people started giving Michael Jackson credit for what he's done. The brother has created some wonderful music. He's the backbone behind every song he's ever done. He just has people around him, helping him, to pick the right songs and get it out on time, because if Michael was to do a whole album by himself, he'd jam pack it with 3 discs of material and it'd take him 7 years to do it. Michael Jackson can make great music, but he can't discipline himself to let songs go and record and mix the album in good time without taking a life time to do it.
[Edited 5/15/06 4:48am]

I hate to say this, but you're delusional and are completely out of touch with reality, especially when it comes to Michael Jackson.

Exactly.

Some of the comments here are so unbelievably dumb and biased towards one's own taste.
There's plenty of artists that I think deserve the genius tag even though I'm not a fan of them myself.