StoneCrib said:

Again...instrumentation is very important...But a lot of folks will tell you that lyricism, songwriting and performance are just as important (The ablility to play an instrument does make a huge impact; it's just not the only impact)...Alecia Keys plays piano, but does that make her more talented than Sade? No....Genuises come in different degrees....Billie Holiday was a genuis because she pushed an artform (Blues) to its highest level; her VOICE was genius; I suggest you listen to her catalouge (many of which she wrote herself, unheard of back then for a female performer)...ESEPCIALLY "STRANGE FRUIT"...

As for Bob Dylan, I'm not even going to dignify that...The man's lyrical genius in the '60s brought rock and roll from the pedestrian "She Loves You" songs to what Stevie, Prince, The Beatles and a host of other folks would do in the future...I'm not even a huge Dylan fan and I know that shit...And yeah, I got my problems with Michael jackson; but if you can't see that dude was a child prodigy (which is another way to say "genius,") then what is? MJ was as exceptional as advertised during his prime years...After that that genius began to be dwarfed by MJ's commercial obsessions....
[Edited 5/12/06 11:28am]

Graycap23 said:

You are leaving some people off your list.....But hey, different strokes...

murph said:

I dig your list but our degree of definition is different I suppose. That does not mean that either is us is "wrong" or "right" though.

Graycap23 said:

See, my cuzz agrees so it's all to the good!

Graycap23 said:

murph said:

And that was my next point: Do we NOW separate genuises into degrees of genius? That's the million daollar question.

In that case, there are poets that can be considered Musical Genius of you're just going off lyrics. There are poets that have written better than Dylan, easily.

And prodigy doesn't mean genius, it just means extremely gifted with the potential to become genius. MJ as a child was gifted but I don't think he was anything "near-genius" as a child. He sang and danced and basically mimicked the Motown greats that were already there for him to follow, to be honest. MJ's genius was his marketing of himself.

StoneCrib said:

I just noticed your post stating the same thing.....funny man.

Graycap23 said:

Downright scary!

StoneCrib said:

No. To me, you're either a genius, or you're simply above average.

Prince is a genius because there's really no one else who could do what he's done bar none. Someone with the raw ability to not only play all his own instruments, produce as much music as he has, create a world outside of the music the way he has, with as much originality as he has exhibited over the years, HAS to be a genius.

Bob Dylan is not a genius because there are many songwriters out there who write lyrics that as as good as his (sometimes better, Tom Waits comes to mind.) Not to say that Dylan isn't great, because he is. But a genius? I dont' think so.

Mozart, same thing. Things that came easily to him took other musicians years to learn. There was just a part of his brain that was way more developed than the average person. It is said that he could go to a concert, hear the piece for the first time, then go home and write it out note for note! But the man was writing music ALL the time and is one of the most prolific composers in history, but the quality of it is consistantly high. That in addition to his mental predisposition towards music makes him a genius in my mind.

I think that's really it. If there's someone out there who is about the only person who can do what they do because it's so far above most other artists, then that could be considered genius in my eyes.
[Edited 5/12/06 12:05pm]

murph said:

I will definitely give you that Billie Holliday had a very singular voice, but there were many otherr jazz/blues singers that were doing and could have done what she did.

I think the word "Genius" these days is a lot like the word, "amazing." People frequently refer to things as "amazing" that quite frankly aren't. Likewise, people often label as "genius" people who clearly are merely above average, possibly because they don't feel they'll be taken as seriously if they use less flowery language, or because maybe the music climate is so piss poor these days, that someone like Alicia Keys, compared to most upcoming artists these days, really IS a genius.

StoneCrib said:

I know....."who" r u?

guitarslinger44 said:

Good post, bro. So, do you think Stevie is a genius? And what about Ray? Miles? Beethoven?

StoneCrib said:

Degree may be the wrong word...Let me say category...There are different categories to genuis...I'm not just going off of lyrics with Dylan...I'm going off of artistic impact and the fact that the man ushered in an entirely new era of music...You could basically say that Rock n Roll was BC before Dylan came on the scene; People were still writing love songs and surf music; Dude made it possible to be introspective, to be political (within a rock n roll format); and to push the boundaries of lyricism...You don't have to ask me homie...Just ask Stevie Wonder; Just read what the Beatles, Marvin Gaye, Brian Wilson, Joni Mitchell, Jimi Hendrix ect, ect have said about the man...I'm far from a huge Dylan fan; I like a few songs but his voice by the early '70 was annoying...But the man's lyrical and artistic genius cannot be questioned,...I'm afraid you are in a losing fight (not just me...) on this one (LOL)....But it's cool...

As for MJ, a child prodigy can also be genius...MJ wasn't just simply mimicking Motown, James Brown, ect...He was on their level at that age; he was quite scary actually; Listen, I will agree with you all day that MJ's commercial ambitions got the better of him...He became a marketing machine...But I think you are taking too much away from the guy in his prime years...To me it all comes down to your lack of respect for brilliant vocalists and performers...

Graycap23 said:

LOL! "You" maybe?

murph said:

So Dylan REALLY wasn't "genius" but a "trailblazer", that seems more like it. I don't find his work/output genius.

And MJ even said himself he just mimicked what he saw the Motown cats do, geniuses don't mimick, they create/innovate. MJ at that age wasn't a genius, he was a gifted child. Huge difference.

I honestly think you disrespected those Motwon greats by actually saying MJ was THEIR LEVEL while he was a mere child.

guitarslinger44 said:

Billie Holiday was a genius...I think what it comes down to is folks not seeing the Blues as a genre which could unleash true genius...My reason for bringing up Alecia Keys was because some folks equate genius with instrumentation...That's part of it, but it doesn't automatically gives you a road map to genius...And trust me, not everyone could do what Billie did...That's where we should end this conversation...Maybe if she played a guitar, some of u would be changing your mind....

StoneCrib said:

I actually disagree with that. I think part of being a genius is taking something familiar, but making it your own as well. But that said, that's only part of the equasion. If you've heard any of Miles' early records, it's clear he's imitating the style of Diz & Bird. But the thing that earned him his genius card (besides the fact that he changed the jazz world 4+ times) was that he eventually evolved into his own recognizable style that is mimicked today by most of the jazz trumpeters on the scene.

murph said:

No. Simply put, Billie sang other people's songs. She put her own spin on them, but the bottom line is, we never really got to hear her own words because she was always singing other people's. Not a bad thing, BUT, that alone qualifies her for anti-geniusdom. Nina Simone, while not a genius in my mind (though I think she could definitely qualify) wrote her own songs in addition to singing standards. I think part of earning the genius card is that you have to write your own material. Billie didn't.

There are definitely some people in the blues world who could be considered geniuses. Robert Johnson for one!

StoneCrib said:

No disrespect, but you are little off base....Dylan was far from just being ja trailblazer (which aint a bad thing to be actually)...a trailblazer is Fabian, Buddy Holly, The Temptations, Janis Joplin ect...Dylan was a force of nature...Again, there were other folk artists...He started off just a folk artist...But he took the folk ethic and plugged it in to rock n roll and created something totally different....AGAIN, HE CHANGED THE WAY MUSIC WAS CREATED AND WRITTEN; wothout him you wouldn't get Revolver, What's Going On, There's A Riot Going On, Songs In The Key Of Life, Blue, Harvest, It Takes A Nation Of Millions, Sign O The Times ect.... Dylan didn't just bring in a new style or a new music...He changed how people perceived rock and roll, which was essentially party music....I think your argument on Dylan is a little weak; But you seem to know your music, which is always cool...

As for MJ, I don't have to say that the kid already screamed genius and greatness...You can just ask people like Smokey Robinson and James Brown who saw him as a kid...He was insanely special...But as i've stated, I agree with you that his commecial obsessions got the better of him...That we can agree on all day....
[Edited 5/12/06 12:55pm]

guitarslinger44 said:

Billie sang other peoples songs and she wrote her own songs...What's your point?
[Edited 5/12/06 12:22pm]

minneapolisgenius said:

I think that MJ is a superb songwriter and singer. "Genius" is fully loaded with subjectivity. People will agree, people will disagree. Its worth debating though.

dreamfactory313 said:

I agree...But I have to add this to the debate...MJ's "genius" never involved his lyricism...I think it was always about his peerless performance ability (especially at a young age) and his insane sense of melody...To me that "genius" was lost by the release of Bad...By then he had become an artist more concerned with sales than pushing himself or his art...
[Edited 5/12/06 12:33pm]

I see Stevie Wonder and the Late Ray charles as musical geniuses. But MJ, if nothing else, was a Child prodigy. MJ sounded more soulful age 11 than most 35 yr old men and his showmanship for such a young age was incredible, so he may not be a musical genius in the true sense of the word but he was definetly a child prodigy imo..

Imo Madonna and Elvis are what I call "Marketing genuises"

murph said:

The point is that we've established that a genius should be prolific. I just went thru my fakebook and checked it out on the internet and I can only find 3 songs that she either wrote or co-wrote. I'll give you that, but again, I dont' believe that her talents are singular enough to make her a genius.

Tell me why you feel no one else can do what she did.

You have to think about a lot of these artists in context. That is to say, keep in mind WHEN and WHERE they were creating, the whole social climate of the times, and what had come before it, in terms of music. And what was NOT out there yet.

If an artist changed the way music was played, perceived, and had the ability to change an entire generation's outlook on life, or took an entirely new approach, whether it was lyrically or in their songwriting, or the use of never before incorporated instruments in popular music into their work, blending things together in a way that had never been done before....then I'd say they were a musical genius.

For me, it's not necessarily about technical ability, or having "the whole package". It's about the ability to really move people and affect their lives in a positive way.

guitarslinger44 said:

I've never established that...yeah it helps to be prolific, but it's not the end all to be all...Hell "Strange Fruit" is more complex and genre-busting than a lot of artits' entire catalogue...Again, for you guys a lot of it comes down to whether or not an artists plays an instrument or cranks out an insane ammount of work...To me that would be limiting the term "the genius"

minneapolisgenius said:

This is the most eleoquent statement I've read all day on this thread...You took the words out of my mouth...

guitarslinger44 said:

Yeah, I see your point on that, and maybe I should have said they take what's already been done and take it to another level. But for MJ as a child, ALL he was doing was mimicking what the Motown greats were already doing.

murph said:

1ST BOLD: That's exactly what a trailblazer is, bro - Someone who blazes a new trail for others to follow down.

2ND BOLD: He screamed prodigy and gifted, but he was far from a genius. I have never heard anyone say that as a child MJ was a genius. Not once. The ONLY times I've heard him referred to as a genius is after he blew up in the 80s.

murph said:

I'm shocked.

I never post eloquent statements. I usually just post in emoticons. I'm not sure if what I'm getting at came across the right way, but I really couldn't think of any other way to put it all together and say it. But thank you.