heartbeatocean said:

I met and went living temporally with Punks. Many of them have had very, very rude childhoods and life made punks from them. Punk, I see, is a lifestyle and way to express a hard and rude reality, were injustice is fighted for the freedom of the individualist. Punk is real and some social politic oriented.
Peace!
[Edited 3/2/06 8:00am]

the interesting thing about "legendary" punk musicians is that they started out with kind of an ambitious, scrappy, attitude-heavy sort of energy that made up for their lack of technical proficiency, and after managing to create music that communicated that energy perfectly, they seemed to have spent their time post-zeitgeist embracing other styles and "educating" themselves to become proper musicians.

john lydon went on to dance music after the sex pistols, as did mick jones (right?) from the clash.

heck, the clash got into reggae and dub before they even broke up.

most of X got into country music, and they started an alter-ego alt-country band called the knitters.

joe strummer went WAY out there post-clash and even did soundtrack work.

and so on and so forth.

i think the ability to be "DIY" and create "ignorant art" that holds up with the more accomplished, educated artists in pop music (or any other genre, for that matter) is completely valid...but i think you can only let yourself stay "ignorant" for so long before it isn't cute anymore.

when you break it down, music is just a form of communication. if you can sing and if you can figure out how to manipulate an instrument, you have a method of conveying something you want to say, even if it's just "my woman done me wrong and now i'm sad."

as i see it, punk was a way of embracing that simplicity to vent frustrations about how the world was at the time. it was a slap in the face to overproduced sappy smooth-rock stuff like dan fogelberg and gerry rafferty (both of whom i will confess to liking, by the way), and an attempt to shake things up and make youth culture interesting again. and it worked for a while.

we live in a culture now that condemns that kind of spontaneous cultural revolution. even the stuff that is labelled "rebellious" is anything but. teenage rebellion is a branding tool now.

Anx said:

You have a point about classic punk artists moving on to other genres. HR from Bad Brains went on to do some really jazzy stuff in fact. Danzig went more metal. The Descendents went all pop with ALL...and so on and so forth.

And about the teenage rebellion thing, I think most kids today are too damn lazy and complacent, and inundated with pop culture to spearhead any sort of "uprising" these days. And you would think in times like these, they would.

theAudience said:

Would you like it better if the music was played by accomplished musicians?

TonyVanDam said:

Do not forget about the Stooges, they were first in punk rock.

Fun House is a requirement for anyone interested.



While my generalizations about punk rock lacking in musicianship, it's not to say that all of was .

Bad Brains were such a great band that Living Color used them as a basis to create a career. The Ramones (not really punk to me), Misfits, Dead Kennedys, Sex Pistols, Revolting Cocks are a few more favs. The lines getted blurred to what punk rock is in the 80's to me.

i think of the ramones as a failed bubblegum pop band with a lead singer who wanted to sound like a male ronnie spector...they were almost outsider artists. or maybe they WERE outsider artists. i think they only got the "punk" label because they were different and nobody knew what else to call them.

Slave2daGroove said:

I never got into the Stooges for some reason. And yeah, I don't think of the Ramones as punk either.

Oh, can't forget The Damned though.

Stax said:

Great article. He even exposed the posers.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

This has been a very enlightening discussion that has stayed on the high road.
Not once did it descend into You suck, FU, Blow Me or any seriously vicious tirades.

Now, is that considered PUNK?


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

PISS OFF!!!

theAudience said:

Blow me.

heartbeatocean said:

What do you think?
But could you imagine what that might sound like?

How about some that at least played in tune.
You're a violinist, you know what i'm talking about.

Great thread hbo.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

minneapolisgenius said:

FU! Do me first.





tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

This is a great thread. A coupl of months ago MOJO did an enire issueon this very subject. The cool part about the the punk"movement" was that they genuinely seemed to want social change. The fact that the Clash could vibe with a group like Steel Pulse, form Rock against Racism, challenge Englands racist mindset, and mobilize the youth is a testament to the unifying power of music. Hence, the need for a nice co-opting.

theAudience said:

See? I'm way more punk than Avril.




Sorry, I couldn't even say that jokingly that without hurling.
[Edited 3/2/06 12:41pm]

minneapolisgenius said:

Jeez, i'm more Punk than Avril.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

Stax said:

...AND THERE IT TRULY IS.

punk is not about piercing yourself with safety pins, spitting on each other, wearing a mohawk and not bathing for weeks, like the mainstream media will have you believe. it is not about a certain "look" or "sound", or what you bought from hot topic (scary place...). the absolute basis of punk is all about being yourself and doing what you wanna do, speaking your mind, and simply being heard. in my eyes, if you've got the balls to not follow the status quo and fly yer own freak flag, you're a punk. a studded leather coat and bondage pants are not necessary to be one.

i consider myself as a punk...as far as i'm concerned, i've been one ever since i first came outta the womb.



p.s. avril lavigne can go eat a bag of poo-encrusted thumbtacks. she, and other musical acts who play off of the "mall punk" mentality that's been boosted by the media, aren't really helping any to cement the true basis of punk culture.

p.p.s. if you wanna find out more about how punk began, i highly recommend this book. it's on my bookshelf, and it'll tell you how it all began, from those who were actually there when it all started.





gabba gabba edit
[Edited 3/2/06 13:16pm]

Im gonna step out on a limb here and say that I dont think Avrils that bad, really. I can deal w/a couple of her songs, but I like the fact that that while she may be packaged to some degree, at least she isnt Brittany Spears(B.S) or fucking Ashlee Simpson. She may not be the most hardcore among us, but at least she knows a couple of chords.

Anx said:

Yes, I always thought it really strange that the Ramones were considered a punk band. But they are considered classic punk, as punk as it gets. So we can take a lesson from that: It's the stripped down-ness of the music, the superfast songs (unpretentious), lack of solos (they were working against psychadelic music masturbation that was popular at the time), the goofy depressed lyrics. Besides, bands like the Clash studied them. It was a historical event when the Ramones played in England. It broke UK punk open wide.

theAudience said:

I agree. I really hate those tirades. But we can still be punk.

theAudience said:

thanks, Audience. I'm not sure what it would sound like in punk band, but played by a 40-piece orchestra of "real" musicians, the Sex Pistols sound fairly fabulous!

unkemptpueblo said:

Yeah, i'm having a little problem with the Avril bashing too. I've never heard a thing she's done, but any young female artist who has the guts to put herself out there, is okay by me.

unkemptpueblo said:

Avril's the same thing as Ashlee, just in a different wrapper.

Punk are usually anarchists and against violence. I think Pink is kinda punk.
(they don't like to OWN. usually former spoiled children)

They didn't last because of their music.
[Edited 3/8/06 14:16pm]

To me, they're two different meanings of punk rock. One is the punk rock attitude of not caring what people think, being unconventional and challenging society. A artist making any kind of music can be punk in that sense. Madonna to my mind is punk in the first sense, but not the second sense below.

The other meaning is punk in terms of music which is agressive guitar based music with fast live drums (not electronic programming), starting with the Clash and the Ramones and continuing to Green Day. A band can make punk inspired music, but not have a punk attitude, in that they just want to make music, and don't want to challenge society or challenge norms of how things are.

Glindathegood said:

You forgot Sex Pistols!

sataninas said:

Yes, thanks. They're a good example of a band that's punk in the both the first and the second meaning. I guess they're the ultimate punk band then.

sataninas said: