OK, I was listening to Miami Sound Machine's "Eyes of Innocence" album a while ago and was enjoying all of the great horns in tunes like "Dr. Beat" and "I Need A Man" and it got my mind thinking about 2000-now. I noticed that a lot of popular music nowadays features little to no horn instruments at all. I'm not talking about unoriginal samples, but ACTUAL, REAL horn instruments and solos by real musicians.

This facet is SEVERELY lacking in today's music and it disturbs me.

The only real pop song I can think of that uses horns and was a recent hit was Beyoncé's "Crazy In Love," but that was nearly three years ago. And it doesn't count because they weren't real horns done for the track, just some sample of a Chi-Lites tune from back in the day ripped off by a new jack hip hop producer.

Can you name any modern pop songs nowadays that use horns? What do you think led to the refusal of artists and producers nowadays to incorporate or infuse horns in their melodies?

And what the h*ll happpened to sax solos?!

Discuss.

JANFAN4L said:

damn prodcuers and engineers are too damn lazy!!!!!

damn prodcuers and engineers are too damn lazy!!!!![/quote]

That, too!

I was at another board where this topic was brought up and was surprised at the response by various forum members. They were like, "uh, because it sucks," "it sounds like porn music," references to Kenny G and other miscellaneous dumb comments. I mean, basically, no one was taking the s**t seriously and basically were content with some brain dead '70s samples thrown in by a hip hop producer.

Where did we go wrong musically regarding horns? When did it become old hat?

I miss the feel of that instrument in a track and it would go so well with modern pop.

This is the future:

I've been searching around for examples and I just heard some samples from Christina Aguilera's forthcoming album "Back To Basics" [working title]. It was previewed on MTV. And, surprisingly, I heard REAL HORNS being played in the tracks. There's some soul in it and also there's a late 50s throwback called "Candy Man." I guess we have to thank DJ Premier for including them in his productions.




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[Edited 2/26/06 3:00am]

JANFAN4L said:

That, too!

I was at another board where this topic was brought up and was surprised at the response by various forum members. They were like, "uh, because it sucks," "it sounds like porn music," references to Kenny G and other miscellaneous dumb comments. I mean, basically, no one was taking the s**t seriously and basically were content with some brain dead '70s samples thrown in by a hip hop producer.

Where did we go wrong musically regarding horns? When did it become old hat?

I miss the feel of that instrument in a track and it would go so well with modern pop.[/quote]

since that so called paradigm shift in the music biz where the emphasis waz placed on marketability and less on vocal capability and talent music has just gone downhill. you can always tell the music from the 70' s and 80's (apart from the synthesiszers and shackles) it just seemed that music producers put more life and hardwork in to

It isn't just horns. Where are all of the guitar solos? Even listening to all of the pop-punk bands, you rarely hear any extended guitar solos like you used to during the 70s and 80s. But with the advent of grunge, it became gauche to show off your guitar virtuoso skills.

There's always been a sort of by-the-book quality to writing pop songs. Each song usually consists of a verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, guitar/sax/horn solo, chorus. There were variations on this, but it was still the basic structure. However, once hip hop became really huge in the 90s, other artists felt the need to raise their street credibility, so they abandoned the guitar/sax solo for the guest rapper. That's why you find so many songs these days by "pop crooner" featuring "thug rapper" (fill in the quotes yourself). Now rappers who want pop credibility will do this in reverse, but instead of using the singers as a bridge, they will have them sing the chrous while they sit in the background during those parts and say, "yeah, uhhh, yeah, that's right, yeah."

Exactly. Where the hell are the drums and bass?

Horns Cost money, require time(to learn) and reharsels(since most horn playas nowadays will embarrass themselves if they improvised).

Labels already know how to make a fat bouncing check without them, so they don't bother with demanding their presence.

Anyway, if it is ONLY the lack of horn sections we should worry about, then we should be lucky but we suffer from the lack of COMPLETE musicianship & subtance.

Nothing is personal anymore!

The way the industry is more about fashion than real music at the moment has a lot to do with it.

It'll change though, these things go in phases.



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[Edited 2/26/06 6:07am]

the greatest example of this is Sade's Lover's Rock...

Mathew Stewart's horn playing is one of Sade's signature sounds..why oh why did it go missing on the last album?

sosgemini said:

I'm a big Sade fan, but I hated Lover's Rock

Not only were horns missing, real instruments were missing altogether. It's like one big sample. Very disappointing

Think about this for a minute.
Who started substituting ensemble horn patterns with keyboard parts?
You could actually lay a small portion of this right at the doorstep of the namesake of this board.

In terms of present day examples, although they haven't had current "HIT" hits, Steely Dan has pretty consistently incorporated a real horn section in the second half of their recording career.

Donald Fagen's new single, H Gang, has real horns.

Since their new deal with Concord Records, Soulive has added 2 horn players.
The music on the latest release, Break Out, is very classic Funk/R&B with a modern edge.
(Got Soul and Take It Easy featuring Ivan Neville, Back Again featuring Chaka Khan and Break Out are a few good examples)

Howard Tate's brand new release, Howard Tate LIVE, has horns all over it.
But then this is classic Soul/R&B material from a veteran artist.

Although they're no longer a "Hit" making entity, Tower of Power is still a working band and their material is obviously full of horns.

I truly do miss hearing the poppin' horn parts of bands like TOP, early Kool and The Gang and other Funk/R&B/Pop bands in general.

As others have said, I would also chalk it up to economics, electronics and a lack of musical taste.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431
[Edited 2/26/06 11:09am]

Harlepolis said:

Harlepolis got it -- it's about CO$T.

A whole gang of people still learn to play brass, just don't get hired.

Rudy said:

oh..i loved the album...but i wish the sax would have shown up at least once....

Sax solos got way overused in 80's songs. They were dropped in about every song, whether it needed it or not. I don't mind horns in a song, but please no sax solos LOL.

A lot of you have been mentioning economics and cost, and while that is a valid point, I still find it disconcerting that record companies will shell out upwards to $1,000,000+ on a video... yet find horns, sessions musicians and the like to be too much of a fiscal burden?

If that's the case, then that's really telling of the music industry and its skewed priorities when it comes to music making. Image trumps talent.

JANFAN4L said:

Great point.

theAudience said:

The Tower of Power made Huey Lewis & The News for me. I loved "Perfect World." Anyone who abhors the sound of horns hasn't heard that track!

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check a few of those out. I have heard the new Donald Fagen set on iTunes. I prefer his old gems like "The Nightfly," but it's nice to see he's still in the game.

"The Way You Move" - Big Boi

and from Mariah's album..

Mine Again
Circles
If U Only Knew
Fly Like A Bird.

728huey said:

I think there was ONE with Usher's "You Got It Bad"

paisleypark4 said:

Don't you love it when tracks like these are performed live? I love how the horns in tracks like these just punch you!

JANFAN4L said:

Even when Prince did it live it was the same way.. BUM BUM BUU DUUH! Damn!!

728huey said:

so true...

sometimes i feel like musicains died sometime in the 1980's


i sometimes feel that Prince was the last great muscian's musicain, and Michael Jackson the last great show man's musicain.

P2daP said:

Yeah Sure Or is that just when you stopped searching for new artists?

CinisterCee said:

oh no. there still out there, no doubt about it. i mean more so in the pop culture scene. but still imo nobody has toped those guys in thier fields of music.

JANFAN4L said:

Horn sections and an orcherstra don't demand attention anymore,,,however an ass crack and a camel toe moment come in handy EVERYTIME they spend their money on them.

But do you miss saxophone like "We Belong To The City" by Glenn Frey? I don't really.

I liked the horns used on these albums:



Then you realize people like Roy Hargrove still exist.