So now Michael Jackson is beefing with Sony about the failure of Invincable. It was poorly recieved and died fairly quickly. But for someone who spent 30 million recording an album, and used one of today's tightest producers, how could he have gone wrong?

The uptempo cuts on the album sounded about 5 years old, but the ballads were slammin! I think that he totally intimidated Rodney Jerkins, and instead of Rodney bringing MJ to an updated sound, MJ brought Rodney backwards.

Where did he go wrong, y'all?

Where MJ went wrong: "Want some candy little boy?...it's in my crotch!!"

mrchristian said:

Classy. Real classy

Where did Michael go wrong? 4 someone who was once a big fan of Mike, I wish I could say that it ws just the music but it's everything. What he did to himself through all the surgury just sickens me. His King of Pop persona. He's more concerned with showing screaming fans in everything that I think the music takes a back seat. And he takes so long between albums and than basically just throws it at U with so much money behind it. At this point I think Usher does a better MJ than MJ does himself...And I had always like Mike. I met the guy back in the 80's and liked him but now he just bring out pity in me...I'd love 2 see him come back but I don't think he ever honestly will...

IMHO the 'problem' with invincible was MJ did not quite feel the approach of many of the hot producers he worked with. At last moment MJ called Teddy Riley back in, and 2gether they added some really great tracks. Normally Rodney Jerkins should 've co-produced over two thirds of the album, and MJ put a lot of confidence in him, but realised in the end Rodney was not versitile enough. The up tempo Jerkins tracks on the album r nevertheless really good compared 2 other pop-singer efforts, but it was obvious that he would get little critical praise 4 them and without a massive promotion campagne 2wards the public the uptempo tracks were aimed, mostly teens, he wouldn't get a fair chance on the charts either.

To sum it up, the album lacks coherence, but nevertheless i think most tracks r very good on there own and altho most might not like all of the album, there r certainly some tracks 4 everybody on there.

mj "went wrong" since 1984, imo.

Who said MJ CD was a failer? Not His fans!
By now he should be independant from all
of the music business politics.

MJ is limited anyway, he's only a singer.
And how many times can he grab himself
and say hooo!It get's old.
-Janet won't face his problems
because she is an artist and knows how to
develope her craft. Mj has not grown
as an artist and has done all that he has
to offer,so Sony see's that and has cut their losses.
-Prince on the other hand has stood alone
and will continue as so.
He knows what is profitable for him
and only does so.
I remember reading in Yahoo mag
saying Video production is not
worth the expense.
-So for MJ what went wrong is...
He thinking he could keep putting out the
same sound time after time!
Should have never left Quincy!
-Janet is smart she sticks to what
works and grows with it!
-Mike it's time to pay the piper!

Mike's ballads are wonderful, and a couple of fast ones, but most of all like b4 he could release albums a little sooner than 5 years apart

Key Phrase: He never should have left Quincy!

On point, Snake.

I don't really think MJ 'went wrong', I hated Invincible when it first came out but after a while it really grew on me. Invincible is quite impressive. for example 'speechless' is just amazing and if i remember correctly he wrote and produced that by himself, hopefully he'll learn not to team up with Rodney again as this album shows they really do not work well together. i think Rodney worked on Brandy's last album (i cant remember) and some of the tracks on there were brilliant so I'm not saying he's a shit producer. As for the sales being so low it's worth remembering that so many people had the chance to down load the entire album on so many sites about a week before the release. Sony's handling of the album didn't really help matters either.

refering to Snake's comment I don't see how anyone could consider janet an artist now. i loved Janet and i still listen to her older albums but 'All For You' didn't show any development or any 'craft' to me. lol but im not gonna start hating on janet
[This message was edited Fri Jun 21 13:09:28 PDT 2002 by AshK]

Like somebody said,the ballads on 'Invincible' are SLAMMIN! Songs like "Butterflies","Heaven Can Wait","Whatever Happens" and "Break Of Dawn" are some of the best songs he's ever done,imo.I don't think the CD is a failure.It sold between 5 to 7 million copies worldwide.For almost ANY other longtime artist,those would be impressive sales figures.However,Michael is unrealistic.He truly expects EVERY album to sell like 'Thriller'.That's not gonna happen.He should be satisfied with selling about 2 million in the U.S.,and another three million elsewhere.Drop those outrageous sales expectations!

Personally,I enjoy 'Invincible' much more than 'Dangerous' and 'History'.It's a very soulful album.He was going for an Old School R&B sound on most of the tracks.Honestly,I can't imagine any longtime MJ fan being dissatisfied with this CD.

cuffwerks said:

Everyone keeps saying that Mike should work with Quincy again.One problem...QUINCY HAS RETIRED FROM PRODUCING ALBUMS! If I'm not mistaken,I think that 'Bad'(1987) is the last album he produced for another artist.

Personally, I think that the trouble with 'Invincible' is that it's predictable. The first three songs sound pretty much identical, '2000 Watts' sounds just like 'They Don't Care About Us', 'Speechless' & 'The Lost Children' sound like - well, Michael Jackson ballads.
The only song that sounds new and innovative is 'Whatever Happens', but the rest of the tracks are so easily forgettable.
This is the first MJ CD that I've been truly dis-appointed with. It seems like that, for the first time, Michael's got nothing driving his music. My personal favourite CD of his is 'History'. The music on there seems angry and creates some truly creative moments (They Don't Care About Us, 2Bad, Earth Song, Stranger In Moscow...), the music on 'Invincible' sounds tired.
It's a shame, because I know that MJ is capable of so much better.

I must admit, I really liked "You Rock My World" and especially "Whatever Happens."

IMHO, the album bombed because of Michael's strange persona and all of the controversy that has followed him over the years... he just fell out of favor with the public.

Plus, some of the songs on the album just aren't very good - they sound like recycled pop. If you go back to "Thriller" or "Bad," they were great albums, each song different.

The hype didn't help much, either - people were disappointed with the album, and expected not to be.

Invincible is by no means Michael's best work. My favourite album is a toss between HIStory and Dangerous, but thats neither here nor there. It doesn't matter because its just an opinion.
"Whatever Happens" is one of the most amazing songs I've ever heard the man come out with. But Invincible felt... I don't know, kinda bland to me. It has some good shit on there, some really good shit, but Rodney Jerkins... man, that guy's name sends me running, before Invincible I couldn't stand his work.
Its just sad that people are so quick to knock someone down for their music. If you like it, good, if you don't, then equally good, but no-one on this planet can say what music is right and what music is wrong. Isn't music about self-expression anyway? Thats what I put into my own music, sorry if I was a lil naive in doing that
My attitude is this - it takes a LOT of courage to express yourself. Not in the little "I love you baby baby" shit, but to be yourself, and to express yourself. People have thought MJ is weird for years, the same with Prince. Shit, I love George Michael more than the other two guys (Michael something and the tiny guy with the falsetto... forget their names...) and I get told constantly that he's a sick bastard. But why do people feel the need to comment on someone they don't like the public persona of? I've never understood that. I personally hate Britney Spears but I don't start threads about what a whore I think she is (I'm not saying you started the thread to have a "MJ is a freak" bitchout, cuffwerks, you're actually getting some intelligence here, nice one ). I just don't care about her enough to say shit about her. You see my point?
But in answer to the question, I don't think you can say any artist has went wrong in their career till they're dead and buried and the music vaults have long closed. Its not really fair otherwise.
As for Janet... Janet has only had one good album imo, Velvet Rope. When that "bombed" it felt like she ran back to what would sell. I don't think Janet particularly had much talent to begin with - I have her very very very first album - and her voice is so weak. She's not really changed, she's worked with the same producers from Control and not varied her work. The only difference, I feel, is that she has much more confidence which can go a long way. I tried to get into All For You because I was so hyped by Velvet Rope, but I couldn't. I still piss myself laughing at the "orgasmic" Would You Mind if I hear it. When it came to sex, Janet used to be sensual and erotic - with the exception of Throb - but now, I dunno, I feel like I'm listening to audio porn. All Love Scene (Oooh Baby) needed was some old bisexual bloke coming to fix her fridge and walking in on her and Rene at it on the kitchen table.

I think honestly Mike will do okay, however, he just has too much competition these days with the younger crowd. I think if he had gotten the producer of NSync and took a more pop approach and get rid of the "Smooth Criminal" look with his first release from the latest album, he would have maybe done a lot better. When I saw the first video with Chris Tucker, I was thinking "The Way You Make Me Feel" mixed with "Smooth Criminal" and it was just so lame and out of date. BTDT, and the video didn't even have near as much excitement as Smooth Criminal.

There's two things going on here. He picked primarily hip hop producers (nothing wrong there) BUT Mike has a mostly Pop following. In pop music you have to be very tricky in how you market it. The audience starts as young probably 5 years old now (my neighbors kids are into Britney, NSync at that age) and goes maybe to 16 or 17 and they range in all colors, nationalities and such. His music has always had a universal appeal about it. There was something on there for everybody. It was hip, it was funky and poppy enough for all ages and he seemed to keep reinventing himself with each new album. I was expecting to see a new style with this one, but it misses its mark. While the ballads are bad - his primary buying public are young teens and kids and they want something high energy. You buy an NSync album and while everything mostly sounds the friggin' same, it keeps the little buggers up on their feet jumping around, same with Britney. I hear most of the people just raving about the ballads.

Just my opinion.

LQ

cuffwerks said:

He went wrong partly because of the things you just mentioned. I think a main part of where he went wrong was when he sold 40 million of Thriller. That screwed with his head big time imho.

Perhaps Thriller messed up everyone elses heads, everyone just builds up thier expectations far too much so when MJ finally releases an album it's not good enough. it also just emphasises this obession many people have with sales,

Michael's problem is his failure to grow as an artist. He is still aiming his music at the teen crowd.

MJ still thinks he can appeal to the kiddie audience. He apparently doesn't get it that each generation of teens has their own favorites. He's still trying to capture the Usher, N'Sync and Britney audience instead of maturing and growing with his own audience.

AshK said:

I dont think thats the case...I think Thriller made MJ think he was a god etc. and that the whole world would love him no matter what he did just because a substantial amount of people bought his record.

Boy do I hate to be a guy who says "I told you so".. ON this Prince.org message board I got sooo much heat 6 months ago.. "that MJ was going to be DROPPED by sony"..

and it happened.. oh wait MJ "press released he is leaving"??? yeah whatever dude? WHY would YOU or anyone leave a company that gives you $30 Million to produce & $25 Million to Promote your product?

Well like I said the warning signs were up.. when SONY released "greatest hits for his WHOLE back catalog" when there was a little heat off this last album..

I KNEW then he was GONE! But many here slammed me.. Like clock work. I was 100% correct.. point for point of what MJ would say and do.. he is so easy to figure out.

BY the way yet a NEW Press release EVERYDAY/WEEK in the last month just to keep this moron in the paper.. (yes he is paying for them..) BUT SONY did this for 2 years before.. to release this last album at the best time.. to get something out of him ( this last album was done2 years ago).. they still have 15 or more songs still done..

WELL the NEW Press Release of the day is ( I just saw it on the news tonight) MJ wants.. a "fan club" for only little kids to visit him at his house ?? ( it was a quick story but I saw it on FOX NEWS? So I don't have all the details yet).. BUT anything with "little boys or kids" is WIERD!

When I find out more.. I will post a link.

What a FREAK.

Here is what I think:

My "Where did MJ Go Wrong" post can be divided into 2 parts:

Part 1. The music biz is fickle!

The reason why MJ doesn't have the same impact he had in the 70s to the early 90s is because like Prince, Chaka Khan, Luther Vandross, Tina Turner and other black entertainers who are in their 40s, they are NO longer a priority at their record labels and hence DON'T get played on the radio or tv anymore unless its a golden oldies station! Can u think of any black artist (I still see MJ as black because his parents and siblings are black so he is black no matter how much stupid surgery he as had!!!) around MJ's age who has a hit in the charts right now???. There are NONE!!!But the the other hand while artists from the Rolling Stones etc still get support! The music biz is similar to how the NBA etc treat older players...they use them up and replace them with younger players. Unless these artists have business savvy they end up like Bessie Smith! That is why Invincible BECAME Invisible!

Invincible ain't no Thriller or Off The Wall, but it was alot better than some of the shit that is on the charts right now! Invincible DIDN'T cost $30 million to make, according to Rodney Jerkins, Brue Swedian it cost around $5 million and SONY had nothing to do with MJ's concert special last year, and when u think about PR around that time there was NOTHING! you ppl have to remember that some of stuff that is written about MJ is inaccurate. For years SONY has had a repuatation of ripping off their artists hence the reason why everyone from George Michael to Silverchair has left them, so it doesn't surprise me that MJ has beef with them...,like Warners they are shonky!

Part 2. MJ's poor PR Job!

MJ has only himself to blame when it comes to the media treatment of him and his delining record sales. Sure some of it is so unfair and untrue (the 93 allegations was total bullshit (read Was Michael Jackson Framed? article in 1994 GQ magazine for the real story behind lynching of MJ) but had he not butchered his face, married those white hoes (in particular that nut case Presley chick!) hang around morons like Uri Geller etc, and carried on with all that King of Pop crap he wouldn't be copping so much shit from the press...he make their job of bashing him so easy! IMO he needs to get rid of the yes men and surround himself with ppl who will be real with him and give him constructive criticism. Shit janet was more sheltered than him, and started out as a child star (was in Good Times) and she turned out allright and she ain't as talented as Michael. Even though I'm a Prince fanatic, I have a soft spot for MJ because like from Parliament to Marvin Gaye to Kool and the Gang his music has been a part of my life and it makes me sad to see such a talented, yet misunderstood artist self-destruct like that! As much as we like to complain about Prince's latest musical direction etc I thank god every day that he hasn't ended up like Michael! That would be so heartbreaking wouldn't it?

locoarts said:

[This message was edited Fri Jun 28 5:02:49 PDT 2002 by fonkywonder]
[This message was edited Fri Jun 28 5:04:11 PDT 2002 by fonkywonder]

rdhull said:

I suppose selling that many copies of Thriller was bound to make him more confidant his music. But at the same time after listening to Invincible I see MJ as trying really hard (perhaps too hard ?) to fit in with todays generation of pop music, I don't think thats the behaviour of someone who believes everyone will love him regardless of what he does, well thats just my opinion. Maybe he did get a little big headed though then making this album brought him back to earth..

fonkywonder said:

I feel exactly the same, although I do disagree with the face-butchering part. To me his plastic surgery was just a big sign of his insecurities which kinda makes his story even more tragic. But either way I think he'll come back eventually and show how talented he really is.

fonkywonder said:

That's not exactly an accurate analogy though. The older players are usually phased out when there are younger ones who are starting to outperform them on the court. That is mainly due to physical decline in a career that demands physical performance. Since the music business isn't a sport physical decline has nothing to do with how well one recording artist is treated compared to another - unless you're talking about an older artist can't tour as much as a younger one. But the gist of your point was accurate; not many artists in their 40s and beyond are lavished with the publicity afforded to their younger counterparts. But that's really been the status quo for years and years (the early days of rock and roll), it didn't just start happening. And the older artists know it.

AshK said:

More like over-confident. While recording Bad, Michael had said he expected that album to sell 100 million copies. He needs to realize that Thriller, the best selling album of all time, is a once in a lifetime thing for an artist. It will never happen again for him. Whether it happens again at all is something nobody knows, of course. But it's not going to happen to the same artist twice. It seems he lost any grip with reality after that.

MJ went wrong when he got caught up in the following themes over and over:

-Nobody understands me

-The media invade my privacy

-I love children

-Worst of all: The sickeningly saccarine ballads like Gone Too Soon, Little Suzie, Have You Seen My Childhood, Lost Children etc.

I think the man himself is the problem rather than losing any musical abilities.

take a look at his face and U know it!

Supernova said:

So OK, Thriller probably messed with MJ's head, to be honest I never thought of it like that before untill now as I have a real soft spot for MJ ever since I was a baby. But I really think Invincible shows that MJ has became more realistic now, I don't see his 'over confidence' present in Invincible thats not to say it never existed but Im just trying to say its decreased recently.