One last thing about MJ's sexual life: As I said before, this is the same guy who shied away from Tatum O' Neal and Iman, yet all of a sudden he's screwing Lisa and everybody agrees? I still have yet to see a possible explanation for that.

Iman? Never heard that one before, although that "kiss", if you could call it that was feckin' awkward. But that was just on screen - she was already with David Bowie during the Remember The Time video, or is there something earlier that I haven't heard about? And with Tatum O'Neal that was a good 15 years before LMP. People change.

Ellie said:

Yeah, it was the kiss I was talking about. I heard they had to keep repeating the take because MJ was so shy/so afraid to do it. If he had an attitude like that just two years before he married Lisa, plus a childhood in which he witnessed/heard his brothers boinking groupies (which couldn't have been good for his mental/sexual development, especially as he would later go on to become what would truly seem to be a sheltered, pampered global superstar), how would he be so willing to have sex with the latter? I don't get it.

But that's just me. I'm not trying to be judgmental.
[Edited 12/30/05 9:44am]

squiddyren said:

According to Tatum herself she did have a romance with MJ but apparently his 'inner cirlce' got rid of her because apparently she was putting him off his work. She has a book about it all called "the way he made me feel".

FUNKitUP said:

Don't you mean Tatiana?

That's Tatiana Thumbzten. Tatum O'Neal tries to deny things now, but Leif Garrett confirmed all the stories from the Taraborrelli bio.

Ellie said:

Oh god you are quite right, I'm not with it today
Yeh I remember her denying everything.

no kidding.

Who´s Leif Garrett?

The actor: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0308161/

But how does he know? Is he Mike´s friend or what? I´ve never heard of him in connection with Michael. How long have they been friends?

No, he confirmed that little hot tub story. They were just mingling in the same circles when MJ used to hang out with Tatum.

For me, Michael jumped the shark with "Bad".

ha, cool. Thanks. I like that. MJ sure ain´t no saint.

Hmm, well the story was that she tried to seduce him. Several times actually. All it does is contradict what Tatum tries to say now - and don't even get me started on her getting her "friends" to go around on TV claiming John McEnroe was the one that introduced her to drugs.

hm. that would confirm MJ´s version from Bashit documentary as well. It is interesting that ppl find that story as proof of MJ´s assexuality, but when you think about it, he said she called him to come and make love and he DID come. He knew what to expect and he came which means he wanted it as well, because why would he come to "ridicule" himself this way. He could have made up an excuse over the phone already if he didn´t want it, but he didn´t. He just wasn´t ready. But that doesn´t mean he would never be ready.

shorttrini said:

If he can cast aside his excess garbage its possible down deep he may be able to do this. But I wouldn't count on it.

thedoorkeeper said:

Michael needs to do some deep soul searching....We as his fans need to have faith that one day, he will comeback and do something that HE wants to do.....and not what THEY want him to do!!.

shorttrini said:

That may be a tough part for him since he has so meshed making music with making money that it may be hard for him to seperate the two.
[Edited 12/30/05 12:17pm]

You think that Thriller wasn't contrived for commerical success? In fact, HIStory is probably MJ's only work that was written and recorded with the least regard for commercialism - it was only the marketing that said otherwise.

Ellie said:

I disagree here, not about "Thriller", but about "HIStory". "Stranger In Moscow", "TDCAU", "Little Susie", etc. obviously aren't commercial songs, but why were trendy producers and guest stars like Jam & Lewis (who had become just as hot in the '90s as they were in the '80s), Dallas Austin, Shaquille O' Neal, Biggie, and so on brought in if MJ didn't want some blatant hipness and commerciality to go along with his artistry?

I happen to think "Off The Wall" is his least contrived adult solo record except for the mostly disco production. Vocally, he's never sounded as joyful and skillfully impassioned (no stupid grunts and overdosing on mannerisms) since, and musically, he's never sounded as loose, organic, and funky since.

Well good thing he used more of the lesser commerialised songs for singles then. Apart from irritating crappy old You Are Not Alone *R Kelly to rot - spits*

MJ lost it with the too-eager-to-please Bad (Although I liked "Liberian Girl" and "The Way You Make Me Feel")...He came back a little with Dangerous, then completely lost his soul and mojo (But I have to admit, "Stranger In Moscow" and "Butterflies" showed the man in rare form...)...But to add on to the discussion, MJ lost it because he was too obsessed with beating the mammoth sales of Thriller...

squiddyren said:

While I agree with you that "Off the wall"would be his least commercial album, I will have to disagree with the statement questioning his use of "trendy" producers and guest artists. These producers are by no means trendy and neither are the artist that appeared on the album. He is just like every other artist out there, that wants the best. The fact that he brought in people like, Biggie and Shaq only helped their credibility.

shorttrini said:

So Jam & Lewis, Dallas Austin, R. Kelly, Shaq, and others WEREN'T what was hot in '94-'95? To each his own.

Though it's a fact that I am not a MJ fan (and I never was, since I ever prefered Mr. Prince), everyone has to admit that Thriller is one of the best moments in popular music, a true landmark album... like "Low" by David Bowie (though it did not strike the masses, at least when it was released) or "Another Green World" by Eno, or "Trans Europe Express" by Kraftwerk. It is a classic, and will ever be. And it still sounds fresh and good.

I think to say that MJ "has lost it" (or when) is pointless. Time has changed - new stars and tastes arrived slowly but steadly; it even happened to Madonna in the earlier nineties (as I believe, correct me if I am wrong) - but she managed to "fetch" the right people to keep her business going. And in Madonna's case - I really don't want to rank her on the top with Bowie and Prince.

It happened to Prince (maybe even before his departure with WB), it happened to Bowie in the early 80s... and so on. I guess MJs time is gone. With all the things he has (or has not) done, the kind of image he has now, which is somewhat dim - no. Though my nice (15 years old) discovered him last year and collected everything she could get her hands on.

LightOfArt said:

in my opinion:


talent-wise: in 2001. everything before then i love, there are a couple of songs after 2001 that i love but they just dont compare to previous songs. invincible is his worst album, which is sad as his previous one to that is his best.

mentally: i agree with cinistercee, "he lost it the first time papa Joe layed the smack down". i dont belive he lost his mind when superfame hit him, i think that was the time when he became confident enough to show what he had always been thinking.

virginity: of course i have no clue and i wish lilgish and ellie would PM me and tell me everything they know, but based on everything i do know i would say in 1994 when he was 36.

dag said:

I am pretty certain he had sex with Lisa Marie but I very much doubt he had sex with Debbie Rowe and no way those kids are his biological!

manthevan said:

Co-Sign