thedoorkeeper said:

I'm not going to argue with that (apart from the porno producer bit. It's a living!).

It's a sad situation yet again. it's not the way adults should behave and that goes for both of them. for the record, i'm not at all comfortable with the way Michael treats those children when he ventures out with them (veils etc)

Some people are just not cut out to be parents, and unfortunately Michael appears to be one of them. Debbie too for that matter.

again, harsh but true?

murph said:

you realize this is the drawing


not to say that the description wasn't accurate, but all the information surrounding those photos were submitted to two grand juries in 94, one in LA the other in Santa Barbra. Both Juries didn't indict. Granted, this happened after the settlement, but Sneddon had 5 months before the settlement to bring criminal charges against Jackson, but didn't.

lilgish said:

I'm sorry but I don't think Michael did anything to Jordy or Gavin, and to me that photo is laughable.

lilgish said:

I'll say it again...There's nothing I can say to you to change your mind...You are long gone

murph said:

Go watch the Dave Chappelle skit from season one..."The guy made Thriller"
That sums up my attitude. If you got a problem with Michael, you got a problem with me.

Mikes gonna have legal problems until the day he dies.

jasonstar said:

".. so would you let your kid sleep in his bed?"

"FUCK NO!"

squiddyren said:

I agree with this And I don't even have kids..I think while it may not be a sexual thing for Michael (Nobody will ever know for sure) it is just weird and not normal. Just once I'd wish Michael would go on TV and say "Sure I made some poor decisions in the past, when it came to not setting boundries with my kid friends, and I've grown up." But like I pointed out above, he probably never will. He thinks of himself as Peter Pan. I want to believe Michael is innocent and just is obssessed with kids, so I will cling to that belief. However, as far as his parenting, I think he overall cares about his kids, but I have lots of sympathy for how they will turn out. I mean I seriously doubt they are his kids by "the old fashioned way." The kids look white. And I don't care how much Michael bleached his skin, or had a skin disorder, his kids would look black to some degree. Sorry to be so blunt - but they don't. His kids will have that to deal with as adults, unless they want to march through life wearing veils on their faces as adults. On top of that, their Dad, the only REAL parent they have, (sorry Debbie isn't much of a Mom in my book guys) is a walking punchline these days due to his own poor choices and Jay Leno and David Letterman's cruel jokes about him - not to mention tabloids. Michael is kind of a closed off person, whom I can't help feel sorry for. I wish he would get his shit together. The fact is..various reports have suggested he is addicted to pain pills. (Which would not be surprising - given his past history.) If we take this to be true, the pills they reported him being on was a pill (I forget the name) that my Dad and Grandma have both taken at various times. To put it lightly, it made both of them very unmotivated and just very mellow. I would hate to think the best dancer of our time is so unmoviated to be dancing or singing. However, it might be the case. Even if he isn't addicted to pain pills, it seems like he is just letting his life pass him by. I miss the days of 93 before the first round of kiddie troubles started. Michael was finally coming out of his shell. He was doing interviews (Oprah) and even making jokes at award shows. "I've gone from where is he, to here he is again!" -- "Me and Janet really are 2 different people!" One of the hosts said later, 'Who knew Michael Jackson was so damn funny???" Ofcourse..one could argue interviews (Living with Michael Jackson) are what got him in the whole messy trial of 05 in the first place.

It is sad either way you slice it..
[Edited 12/21/05 18:47pm]

jasonstar said:

I wish he could have stayed that way in public as well.. y'know, just a normal, open guy with a sense of humor. I think the closest he's come since then is the Geraldo interview. That was good stuff.

murph said:

so you go to a fan forum of a guy you think is a peadophile? errrr....why?


i say it all the time but i'll say it again, thats the thing that annoys the hell out of me with you. you just wont except that other people have different opinions and you think yours is fact and anyone who doesnt agree with you is lying to themselves or 'cant see the truth'. why cant you just except some people actually believe hes innocent based on the evidence they have seen and the fact that they know more to the story then you do and not because there lying to themselves. seriously get a fucking clue, its hard to keep my like for you when you think that people are lying to themsleves if they dont agree with you.

listen to this please and try not to let it fly through one ear and out the other, some people like michaels 90's music better because they actually think its better music, not because there 'young and dumb', some people think he actually has a skin disorder not because there blinded by 'obsession', and some people think the man is fucking innocent based on actually studying the court case. man i dont know why you cant accept that. i accept your views because based on your experience thats what you came to believe, but please stop telling people things like 'if there true fans they'll see he's guilty' .

i would NOT, i repeat NOT support someone if there was any evidence to suggest they were a pedophile. i would not try to cover it up and make excuses that i didnt really believe in. i dont know if he is one as i wasnt there, but based on what i do know i see no reason why i should lie to myself and call him a peadophile just to please you and your idea of a true fan. im sick of people saying anyone who thinks hes guilty/bleached his skin/has crap music after thriller is blinded.


DAMN!

honestly ive stopped caring if people think hes a peadophile or crazy or sick, ive come to accept that some people are always going to think that. i was going to avoid replying to this thread as i just didnt care about the topic, but the reason why i responded was because i just kept noticing you and your unwillingness to accept others views and calling them 'delusional' and whatnot if they disagee with you, not the fact that you thinks hes guilty, so dont get that confused.

hellomoto said:

I agree with EVERY word you said on both your posts. It is so refreshing to see someone post actual thoughts and not pass them off as fact. The truth is I believe he is innocent based on evidence like you. Others believe he is guilty based on what they believe to be "evidence." However, nobody will know for sure. So it is useless saying one of the points of view is crazy.

jasonstar said:

why does she need to move on?!?!?! those kids are just as much hers as they are mikes, yea she fucked up in the beginnging but more power to her if shes trying to change. in the end its up to the judge and God to judge her, not us. its like in that movie loosing isaih. halle berry put the baby in the dumpster but then wanted him back cuz she got her shit straight and relized she fucked up. if a mother really wants to see her kids she should be allowed to. and "having some more kids" can never take the place of the other ones

I haven't read all the comments so maybe someone already asked this, but if MJ isn't the biological father of the kids, isn't this whole thing moot? I know he bought the kids, but if a paternity test is done and he's not the daddy, wouldn't he lose the rights to them anyway if Debbie wanted them back? Not that she deserves to raise them anymore than he does. The woman sold her babies to a pedophile. Unless she's a complete idiot, how could she not see that this whole arrangement would end badly.
Debbie should be on her knees praying that taking them out of the country illegally is the ONLY thing MJ has done to them. Well, I guess Paris is safe, but little Prince, who knows.
God, what a mess.

shygirl said:

I could argue with you about this and say how Michael has NEVER been proven to be a child molester. However, I won't. All I'm going to say is, please keep in mind, Prince and Paris both said to tons of people who were sent to check up on them, by people like Gloria Allred to check on their well-being while living with Michael, they both went on and on about how great of a Dad they have and how much they love him. Let it go..they just might be happy with Michael.

jasonstar said:[quote]

murph said:

Actually Michael starred in Thriller.
He didn't direct the video.
He didn't write the song.
He didn't choreograph the dance numbers.
He didn't design the make-up.

Thriller is a great video but it was a team effort &
MJ should never be given full credit.

hellomoto said:

Well, the answer to your first question: I'm able to seperate the greatness of the man's music from his time with the J5 to his '80s output from the tragic personal problems he has had before the public over the past 15 years...I can't blame a 20 year old MJ for what he did or didn't do a decade or so later (And as a MJ fan that actually brought his records before Thriller, i want him to get some help; plain and simple) ...Secondly, I brought up the young age of some of the MJ fans because it seems like they are the majority of the folks who go around beating on their chest about MJ's not-guilty verdict without a sense of history about the guy...In other words a lot of the younger fans of MJ that I have encountered lack perspective about the man.

Imagine being a 14 to 21 year old follower of MJ and all you know is the image of the plastic surgery obsessed Michael Jackson who is constantly dogged by the press and has become a punching bag for the media; Well, when you've only experienced the freakshow part of MJ's career you become desensitized to the man's personals battles...This is how someone could say that his plastic surgery is "not that bad." This how someone could say that MJ is only acting out his lack of a childhood...Not only has the "freakshow" aspect of MJ has become par-for-the-course for most of the younger fans of MJ, it almost seems like the media is really out to destroy the man...But of course, it's not as black and white as that...But because I grew up with the "normal" MJ I am able to have a more complete perspective of MJ...I remember when the only thing "weird" about MJ was that he had a high pitched voice....But really, this whole thing is about using common sense....There's only so many times a man can be in the news about child molestation...But unlike other people on this site who have given up on the man, I truely want MJ to get some help; Even if it's just MJ wanting to be around little boys because he never experienced a childhood, this is still a serious mental problem...The bottom line is MJ has meant too much me to just chalk up his obsessions with little boys as simply a man struggling with arressted development..Making light of his problems (not saying that you have done so) and turning a blind eye on what's been happening to Mike the past 15 years to me is shaky...
[Edited 12/22/05 10:52am]

murph said:

I would not normally agree with you but I think you are right here. While I personally doubt he is a child molester with all of my heart, I think he does like to be around little boys because he missed out on a childhood. (Yada yada yada...) But like you pointed out, this is a problem because it just isn't..(I don't want to say normal)..but it isn't..what society at large is cool with. If Michael HAS to be around the company of little boys his entire life..then I hate to say it..but maybe he is better off in Bahrain.

murph said:

that's the first time we've engaged in this thread.

lilgish said:

General statement...

murph said:

thats not what i was saying. you dont have to justify yourself to me why you think hes guilty. but personally your explanation is kinda lame and there are plenty of fans who have been around since the beginning (ex. benscarr) who still believe hes innocent. and you act as if tonnes of boys have come forward when hes only been in the news twice over it with a ten year gap.

my question isnt why you think hes guilty, i just cant understand why you cant except that some people really do think hes innocent and aretn trying to hide anything.

and the fact that your telling lilgish thats hes long gone when hes far more knowledgable and open minded on mj then either you or me shows something.
[Edited 12/22/05 15:44pm]

murph said:

I know you’ve been inundated by the MJ fans (especially the ones from the fam site mjnewsonline, I love those guys) but the generalities of “you are long gone” is extreme. I’m not saying he’s 100 percent innocent or not a pedophile, just stating facts from the 93 case. Same facts stated by Roger Freidman, Matt Drudge..etc..

oops
[Edited 12/22/05 16:42pm]

hellomoto said:

only twice.
How about not at all.

hellomoto said:

My statement was more about the fans who, in their undying support for MJ, make light of his personal problems as if its a joke; it's more of a response to fans who post smiley faces next to verdicts of "not-guilty"...If you have a belief that MJ is not guilty, then that's your personal view...But what Howard Friedman, Nancy Grace or any other biased media pundit has said or reported about MJ has no impact on my and others' feelings about Mike...To me, the dots connect...If it's not child molestation (worst case scenario), it's an unhealthy obsession with little boys and there's a thin line between the two...I want MJ to get help plain and simple because I grew up with the man's music and he has had a profound effect on my earlier life...But having legions of enabling fans blaming the man's problems on an overzelous media out to get him to me is disturbing...Again, having faith in MJ's innocence is quit alright; mocking folks who see it quite another way is naive. Of course, this is not an indictment of you; Rather than just blindly support MJ as some people do on this site, I choose to support that the man get some help before he ends up in the news again for all the wrong reasons...Respect...
[Edited 12/22/05 18:09pm]

jasonstar said:

Respect...

murph said:

just one more thing. you said in an earlier post that you "can't blame a 20 year old MJ for what he did or didn't do a decade or so later". but if you really believe he is a peadophile, that means hes always been one. people dont just develop into pedophiles when there in their mid 30's, so how do you know michael wasnt molesting anyone in the 80's? if you really are a pedaophile it starts from when you first start getting sexually attracted to people. people seem to like the fantasy that the obsession only started once he turned weird and white. whenever some people see a pictue of michael when he was a teen in the late 70's or in the early 80's they say 'before he was a freak and a kiddy lover', but thats just not how it works. they like to keep the idea because he looked normal, but becauses hes now weird he must be peadophile. thats peoples way of thinking

again i dont believe he is one at all, but its just seems so lame that people want to believe and only label the over-35 mj a peadophile andhave some fantasy that he just turned that way overnight when if someone really is one it starts from teen years.

i believe he was never one from the start and still isnt one now.
[Edited 12/22/05 19:02pm]

hellomoto said:

Respect...

murph said:

that all you can say? why not comment? i'd like to see what you have to say to that. are you one of those people that i was talking about in that comment? cant bring yourself to believe that if mj is a peadohile now he was one when he made all your favourite records.

hellomoto said:

Nope, not at all...Of course there is a chance that MJ was on some pedophile shit during the Off The Wall-Thriller era. But i'm only going by the facts not what if's...The fact is MJ's alleged acts of child molestation first came to the forefront in the early 90's. That's when I and millions of others first heard about it happening; and I'll be the first to tell you that i didn't want to believe the shit (And i still don't)...I thought it was a frame up just like all the other fans...Now once the whispers and court appearances continued I started to take a different turn on my opinion of MJ...Here is what I hope as a fan: MJ just has an unhealthy obsession with little boys because he sees a lot of himself in them...This is a struggle that I have being a MJ fan...I don't want to believe such a terrible notion...But you are correct Katty...Hence my "respect" comment; There is a chance that the MJ I grew up with in the early '80s was a child molester...I guess by attaching myself to MJ's more pure, and untainted era, it's my strange way of coping with the lurking possibilities of my childhood idol as a monster...Trust me, i don't want that to be the truth...