independent and unofficial
Prince fan community
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > It's Time for Jackson to face the music
« Previous topic  Next topic »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 07/17/02 2:40pm

LadyCabDriver

It's Time for Jackson to face the music

commentary in today's LA Times:

http://www.calendarlive.c...34,00.html


Pop's would-be king has become pop's disgrace with his startling claims against Sony Music Entertainment.

By ROBERT HILBURN, Times Staff Writer



The Michael Jackson story has turned from sad to shameless as pop's would-be king has become pop's disgrace.

By accusing Sony Music Entertainment of causing his last album to tank by failing to properly promote it, Jackson, a man perversely obsessed with his own physical appearance, has revealed a desperate, ugly side of himself.

Even for someone whose name is synonymous with bizarre behavior, Jackson's latest outburst was startling--especially in its use of the race card.

At a news conference with the Rev. Al Sharpton in Harlem on July 6, Jackson branded Thomas D. Mottola, chairman of Sony Music Entertainment Inc., as "racist" and "very, very, very devilish."

This may be the first time, in the long, frequently combative relationship between musicians and record companies, that a record executive rather than an artist comes across as the victim.

The charge that Mottola is racist and that Sony penalizes black artists is troubling because it makes a mockery of all the legitimate complaints by scores of black artists from the early days of rock and R&B over poor royalty rates, bad publishing deals and the like.

While Jackson, who has what is believed to be the most lucrative contract in the music business, jets around the world and dines with Elizabeth Taylor, many of those veteran artists are still struggling to find the money to pay the month's rent.

Even Sharpton, the flamboyant New York civil rights crusader who often seems guilty of overstatement himself, has since distanced himself from the racism charge.

Jackson, whose albums for Sony's Epic label have sold more than 100 million copies over the last two decades, said Sony and Mottola failed to adequately promote Jackson's last album--the ironically titled "Invincible." He has also accused Sony of blocking the release of a charity single he organized.

In trying to fix blame for his continuing career tailspin, Jackson seems to be pointing a finger at everyone but the one responsible: the man in the mirror. How far are we from Jackson blaming the Bush tax cut for the disappointing sales of "Invincible"?

You need look no further than the music itself to understand why Jackson's album sales have dropped steadily since the unprecedented peak of "Thriller" 20 years ago. The singer's records have become so sterile that they are virtually unlistenable.

For many movers and shakers in the industry, Jackson was a lost cause years ago. Where "Thriller" established Jackson as the most valuable property in the music world, he had slipped so badly by 1993 that he had fallen out of the top 10 when The Times asked 25 industry leaders to name the artists they'd most want on their labels. Things were worse for Jackson in a follow-up survey by The Times in 1995. The singer had fallen out of the top 20.

"Thriller" became the biggest-selling album in history, thanks in part to some of the most ambitious (and costly) promotional music videos ever made. But Sony had something to promote in "Thriller." It was filled with moments of genuine passion and craft. "Billie Jean," with its sensual, tense rhythms, remains one of the great recordings of the modern pop age. And Jackson was even more magical live, where his "moonwalk" dance steps--which seemed to amplify all the self-affirmation and artistic ambition of the album--electrified audiences night after night on tour.

Ever since "Thriller," however, Jackson has appeared to be less interested in making artful, heartfelt music as he is in simply trying to set new sales records. Increasingly, his albums have felt artificial and cold--as if the individual tracks are simply calculated attempts to reflect the commercial strains of the day. "Invincible" is the low point--a work that is frequently sappy, derivative and labored.

Jackson, however, seems to think promotion can make up for his musical deficiencies--hence his idea that the album didn't sell because Sony didn't spend enough money trying to drum up enthusiasm for it.

If anyone should be complaining about Sony, it's the company stockholders. On the chance that Jackson would again strike commercial gold as he did in "Thriller," Sony has been showering his projects with millions. The label claims to have spent $25 million to promote "Invincible," and it could have spent $50 million without success.

Jackson is mad now because the record company has come to its senses--and he seems to be doing everything he can to lash out at the company and its chief executive.

Sources say attorneys for Jackson are preparing to file a breach-of-contract suit against the company, accusing the company of using questionable accounting practices to cheat the singer out of royalty earnings. Jackson may be on strong ground in this area. Whenever recording artists audit label books, they invariably seem to find they are owned money.

But the singer did the entire artist's rights movement a disservice by linking his concerns about accounting practices with his personal attack on Mottola and the label.

His charge that the label blocked the release of "What More Can I Give," an all-star charity single spearheaded by Jackson, blew up in Jackson's face when it was subsequently learned that project was, in fact, abandoned by Jackson's advisors after they discovered that the record's executive producer had ties to the gay porn business.

By then, McDonald's had already backed out of distributing the single at its restaurants after receiving complaints that the fast-food franchise would form a partnership with someone who had settled a child molestation suit.

Jackson needs to take swift action to salvage what is left of his tarnished image. There is a tendency to still think of him as the youthful boy of those wonderful "Thriller" videos and Jackson 5 records. But Jackson is 43. It's time for him to grow up and take responsibility for his actions. Jackson could start by apologizing to Mottola, his fans and all the struggling black artists whose music helped inspire him.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 07/17/02 3:57pm

subyduby

i just feel that sony is sabotoging the album.

it isn't just becuase the music wasn't good enough.
the "butterfiles" song reached to #13, or #14 even though it wasn't a single, nor a video! thriller always comes up. dangerous sold 31 or 30 million albums, which is more than the sales of Bad!!! and if History(greatest hits, and new material) was counted as a double-album, it would sold 32 million. it's only counted as a single album, so it is around 16-18 million. Blood on the Dance Floor (a remix album, supposdely the most successful) had videos released from it. invincible had one video in the usa and the cry video received barely enough promation and mj wasn't in it.
how did sony promate invincible? with posters???to promate an album, the record companies, and the artists have to do it all the way around. invincible according to mj sold 10 million but according to others, it has sold 6-8 million. to say the music's quality was the reason for the destruction of invincible is a bad idea! didn't History receive couple of grammy nominations and awards for it??? there are tons of artists like prince who make good music(supposedly) but who besides a few thousand buy his music? and lots of ppl. said that promatation was never good.



sony wants the catolouge mj since mj will be leaving soon.
since mj is not giving in, they are trying to ruin him.
by spreading rumors, bringing up the child molestion charges, not shipping enough, and paying radio not to play the album.
look at what they did to mariah carey. i read somewhere that a dj claimed that sony tried to pay him by spreading rumors about mariah and by not playing her songs. they are trying to kill mj.

mj is trying to attack everyone on everyside now. he is fighting tommy mottolla, sony and the record industry.all ppl. report is that the industry is rasict and should make no sense to mj since he is wealthy and since his color in his skin isn't black. neutral he isn't saying that the record companies have been rascist to him but to others and that rasicsm happens especially to blacks.

and the whole porno reason is really ridiculous not to release a single which was meant to help people. the porno dude must have given it his all and with all sincereity, and to think due to his past, it can not help people now.
sad
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 07/17/02 7:03pm

locoarts

avatar

as much as $30 million promotion can HELP make the public know an album is out there.. YOU can't FORCE them to to buy it or LIKE IT or YOU?

MJ can blame anything he wants.. and even IF Tommy gets fired from Sony.. who cares??? thats not going to make the public buy your music.

IF you couldn't sell more then 5 million albums around the world total.. with $30 Million with another $25 million to make it..

any Artist can blame anything they want.. but themselves or just admit they are over...

* even after 30 Million viewers watch his CBS Special.. no one bought the album.. the sales didn't jump up.. in the usa alone you would think 10% of the viewers would have bought the album?? NOPE. that would have made his sales 3 million in the usa ( he has't even hit 2 million he is at 1.9 million right now)


MJ had a nice run, but it is over.. loose the ego and enjoy life??

the guy is making a total A$$ of himself..

The Public doesn't even care now.. enough to buy his album after having MJ's name in the press EVERYDAY for 2 weeks.. the album not even seen or made a *blip* on the top 200.. ALL MJ has come down to is a joke and yes the whole public is watching & laughing as MJ self-destruct & spirals out of control :LOL:

but no one is buying his crappy out of touch music
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 07/17/02 7:53pm

DMSR

avatar

Michael and Prince both have to realize that these days image sells records and not music. Michael is so weird now that even if he put out an equivalent album to Thriller many people couldn't look past the weirdness and uncoolness of MJ. Prince has been so f'ed up and buitchy for so long it will be tough for him to ever regain a large fanbase as lons as he rejects his "mainstream" image of D&P or Purple Rain.

I also have 2 words for Michael- QUINCY JONES. The day he left him after BAD, he has gradually made worse records. Quincy and Rod Temperton were apart of that MJ magic and I think a good party album like Thriller or Off the Wall produced by Q would do pretty well, not Thriller numbers, but at least have some hits. Quincy is the man behind the amazing sounds that made songs like Beat It and Wanna Be, etc so original and musical.
______________________________________________

onedayimgonnabesomebody
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 07/17/02 8:08pm

Supernova

avatar

Mike is just still in denial. He apparently thinks he'll forever have Thriller or even Bad-type sales for every album he releases. It's extremely unrealistic. Most performers would sell their own very souls to have just one album sell 5 million copies worldwide. We're talking 5 MILLION COPIES WORLDWIDE. They're small for Michael Jackson sales? Big friggin' whoop. People are supposed to have sympathy for him and his unreasonable expectations? barf
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 07/17/02 9:07pm

subyduby

locoarts said:

as much as $30 million promotion can HELP make the public know an album is out there.. YOU can't FORCE them to to buy it or LIKE IT or YOU?

MJ can blame anything he wants.. and even IF Tommy gets fired from Sony.. who cares??? thats not going to make the public buy your music.

IF you couldn't sell more then 5 million albums around the world total.. with $30 Million with another $25 million to make it..

any Artist can blame anything they want.. but themselves or just admit they are over...

* even after 30 Million viewers watch his CBS Special.. no one bought the album.. the sales didn't jump up.. in the usa alone you would think 10% of the viewers would have bought the album?? NOPE. that would have made his sales 3 million in the usa ( he has't even hit 2 million he is at 1.9 million right now)


MJ had a nice run, but it is over.. loose the ego and enjoy life??

the guy is making a total A$$ of himself..

The Public doesn't even care now.. enough to buy his album after having MJ's name in the press EVERYDAY for 2 weeks.. the album not even seen or made a *blip* on the top 200.. ALL MJ has come down to is a joke and yes the whole public is watching & laughing as MJ self-destruct & spirals out of control :LOL:

but no one is buying his crappy out of touch music


u are right about that a bit.
although his name is in the newspaper, where can i listen to his music? i went to a store a few days ago. it had thriller special edition and it had the greatest hit cds, and no new album.
and besides with mj's royalty rate, he probably has made up the 30 million he owns.

and besides i think, EVERY artist goes through a hard time. so it is up to careful planning and music that can bring the public/fans/media back to the artist. madonna came back and now is finally respected by the critics. prince couldn't come back. mj isn't over. selling out 2 nights in madison square garden at ticket prices like; $1000-$5000 and having the album debut at #1 in many countries and having the song: you rock my world get nominated for a grammy isn't really over.
mj somehow needs the world to concentrate on his new album instead of his past accomplishments.
this is mj first solo album that really has not broken any record. also, i was posting somehwere on a mj board and a lot of ppl. said mj could win back fans if he changes his style of singing to the smooth vocals like on PYT instead of screaming or doing it really fast.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 07/17/02 10:25pm

shane

avatar

interesting article - unfortunately, the problem with MJ is not his singing style but his image. The reason that so many people tuned into see his tv special is the same reason so many people watch Jerry Springer or Cops - they want to be titillated by the outlandish. MJ needs to recognise that the thriller days are over - after spending $60m on his album, Sony can hardly be accused of not wanting the album to be a success.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 07/18/02 12:37am

DavidEye

Supernova said:

Mike is just still in denial. He apparently thinks he'll forever have Thriller or even Bad-type sales for every album he releases. It's extremely unrealistic. Most performers would sell their own very souls to have just one album sell 5 million copies worldwide. We're talking 5 MILLION COPIES WORLDWIDE. They're small for Michael Jackson sales? Big friggin' whoop. People are supposed to have sympathy for him and his unreasonable expectations? barf


Agreed! Michael needs to come back to REALITY and accept the fact that his "heyday" is long over.He should be thrilled with an album that sells 5 million copies worldwide.Very few artists his age are still selling that many records.Very few artists his age are shown on MTV.He still have a sizable fanbase.Aren't those things enough for him?
[This message was edited Thu Jul 18 0:39:16 PDT 2002 by DavidEye]
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 07/18/02 1:36am

mistermaxxx

DavidEye said:

Supernova said:

Mike is just still in denial. He apparently thinks he'll forever have Thriller or even Bad-type sales for every album he releases. It's extremely unrealistic. Most performers would sell their own very souls to have just one album sell 5 million copies worldwide. We're talking 5 MILLION COPIES WORLDWIDE. They're small for Michael Jackson sales? Big friggin' whoop. People are supposed to have sympathy for him and his unreasonable expectations? barf


Agreed! Michael needs to come back to REALITY and accept the fact that his "heyday" is long over.He should be thrilled with an album that sells 5 million copies worldwide.Very few artists his age are still selling that many records.Very few artists his age are shown on MTV.He still have a sizable fanbase.Aren't those things enough for him?
[This message was edited Thu Jul 18 0:39:16 PDT 2002 by DavidEye]
I Just Hope He holds on to the Catelog because that is what it is all about.I hope MJ Scales back&Gets back to Basics&Yes for a Black Artist to still matter&carry any kind of Hype in there 40's in that Business should be all you need to feel good.But I Know the Kind of Success He has had His Head has been in the "NEVERLAND" Clouds for a Long time.hopefully though He can touch the Ground&do that James Brown type of Album that George Clinton said along time ago MJ should do.
mistermaxxx
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 07/18/02 5:02am

Brother915

BROTHER 9/15's TAKE ON THE WHOLE MJ SITUATION


Point 1- MJ HOOKING UP WITH MURDER RECORDS INC- Well so much for that introsepctive record we were talkng about(LOL). It should be no secret to anyone who has followed MJ over the last 30 years that Mike has always had strong POP ambition.
Mike has always folllowed after the hottest pop trends. Just ask yourself why did Mike tap Quincy Jones in the first place back in 1978 to produce his first EPIC solo album? Because back then Quincy was hottest producer on the R&B/pop scene...see the pattern. So this should come as no surprise.

Point 2-CAREER NOT THE SAME AFTER THRILLER- I try to look at things from a whole lot of angles. Yes, I want Mike to make records with more artistic sheen too but yes he has the biggest selling record of all time. Anytime a record sells what THRILLER sold, that opens the door for more greed. Back in 83 and 84, people at the CBS Record and CD Pressing Plant got $2 dollar raises because of Michael Jackson's Thriller album. Remember Mike's album by itself took the entire recording industry out of a slump(by the way the recording industry is in a sales slump now). But Thriller turned that around. After Thriller, people started back buying records again, not only did they buy MJ's album but they often bought something else too. This was a big boost for the industry. When something sales like this, the pressure is on to duplicate what you did earlier. With sales come $$$, and a lot of people made money off of Mike back in 83 and 84. So what you have is an envrionment that sort of squeezes you to pump out more sales. Mike obviously is not strong enough to say "NO,I won't continue to go the commerical route". And this has stunted his artistic growth. But you still have to respect him because this man has made some of the greatest pop records the whole over and a generation of people (a lot of people here in orgville) has grown up on his music. He is a living legend and deserves to be treated as such.

POINT 3- THE SONY PUBLISHING- Once again, I got to say this but my first post last year here in orgville was the fact that every since Mike took control over that Sony Publishing catalogue {with those Beatles songs}, the mainstream media and press have been dogging him. The reason why and I'll say it again...THE THOUGHT OF A BLACK MAN OWNING THOSE BEATLES SONGS IS A HARD PILL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO SWALLOW. I said it earlier this year, don't believe me...go back into my profile and look in the history of my posts and look for that post in one of the earlier MJ threads. I'm not trying to start a race war in orgville when I say that. I have better things to do with my time than to do this . I have been following the career of Mike every since the 70's and I can look anyone of you in the face and tell you that every since he acquired that catalogue, the mainstream media(comprised of a lot of people who grew up on the Beatles)have been blood thristy for Mike every since. PLEASE NOTE how the media tries to downplay any GOOD thing that Mike may achieve. PLEASE NOTE for example how Mike's anniversary special last year experience stellar ratings and yet USA TODAY only made mention of it on page 2 in the Life//Entertainment section. If that would have been the Backstreet Boys, Brittany Spears or Paul McCartney, it would have been on the front cover of the USA TODAY paper in that upper right hand corner. Yet when they ran an article on Mike, they put this acheivement on page 2 of the Life/Entertainment section and even then they tried to downplay it. But let him do somethig weird(which he has done a lot of in his career), FRONT PAGE news. Oh, they'll mention he has the best selling album of all time, but that's an obvious achievement.

Now, it seems like with all of this MJ stuff in the last month coming out in the open about Sony refusing to promote Mike album so the album will flop and he will ahve to relinquish the catalogue back to them and(especially the Tommy Mottola racist claims). It seems that some of the things I have been saying may be coming to past(AND YES I STILL STAND FIRM IN WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT THIS). Mike can have all the plastic surgery he wants, have as many white friends as he wants,have someone put protective shelter around him and be one of the world's greatest performers. However, at the end of the day, when he comes home he IS STILL A BLACK MAN and this sinister world he live in is not going to let him forget it. The person that is going to learn the most out of all of this is probably MJ himself.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 07/18/02 5:15am

subyduby

Brother915 said:

BROTHER 9/15's TAKE ON THE WHOLE MJ SITUATION


Point 1- MJ HOOKING UP WITH MURDER RECORDS INC- Well so much for that introsepctive record we were talkng about(LOL). It should be no secret to anyone who has followed MJ over the last 30 years that Mike has always had strong POP ambition.
Mike has always folllowed after the hottest pop trends. Just ask yourself why did Mike tap Quincy Jones in the first place back in 1978 to produce his first EPIC solo album? Because back then Quincy was hottest producer on the R&B/pop scene...see the pattern. So this should come as no surprise.

Point 2-CAREER NOT THE SAME AFTER THRILLER- I try to look at things from a whole lot of angles. Yes, I want Mike to make records with more artistic sheen too but yes he has the biggest selling record of all time. Anytime a record sells what THRILLER sold, that opens the door for more greed. Back in 83 and 84, people at the CBS Record and CD Pressing Plant got $2 dollar raises because of Michael Jackson's Thriller album. Remember Mike's album by itself took the entire recording industry out of a slump(by the way the recording industry is in a sales slump now). But Thriller turned that around. After Thriller, people started back buying records again, not only did they buy MJ's album but they often bought something else too. This was a big boost for the industry. When something sales like this, the pressure is on to duplicate what you did earlier. With sales come $$$, and a lot of people made money off of Mike back in 83 and 84. So what you have is an envrionment that sort of squeezes you to pump out more sales. Mike obviously is not strong enough to say "NO,I won't continue to go the commerical route". And this has stunted his artistic growth. But you still have to respect him because this man has made some of the greatest pop records the whole over and a generation of people (a lot of people here in orgville) has grown up on his music. He is a living legend and deserves to be treated as such.

POINT 3- THE SONY PUBLISHING- Once again, I got to say this but my first post last year here in orgville was the fact that every since Mike took control over that Sony Publishing catalogue {with those Beatles songs}, the mainstream media and press have been dogging him. The reason why and I'll say it again...THE THOUGHT OF A BLACK MAN OWNING THOSE BEATLES SONGS IS A HARD PILL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO SWALLOW. I said it earlier this year, don't believe me...go back into my profile and look in the history of my posts and look for that post in one of the earlier MJ threads. I'm not trying to start a race war in orgville when I say that. I have better things to do with my time than to do this . I have been following the career of Mike every since the 70's and I can look anyone of you in the face and tell you that every since he acquired that catalogue, the mainstream media(comprised of a lot of people who grew up on the Beatles)have been blood thristy for Mike every since. PLEASE NOTE how the media tries to downplay any GOOD thing that Mike may achieve. PLEASE NOTE for example how Mike's anniversary special last year experience stellar ratings and yet USA TODAY only made mention of it on page 2 in the Life//Entertainment section. If that would have been the Backstreet Boys, Brittany Spears or Paul McCartney, it would have been on the front cover of the USA TODAY paper in that upper right hand corner. Yet when they ran an article on Mike, they put this acheivement on page 2 of the Life/Entertainment section and even then they tried to downplay it. But let him do somethig weird(which he has done a lot of in his career), FRONT PAGE news. Oh, they'll mention he has the best selling album of all time, but that's an obvious achievement.

Now, it seems like with all of this MJ stuff in the last month coming out in the open about Sony refusing to promote Mike album so the album will flop and he will ahve to relinquish the catalogue back to them and(especially the Tommy Mottola racist claims). It seems that some of the things I have been saying may be coming to past(AND YES I STILL STAND FIRM IN WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT THIS). Mike can have all the plastic surgery he wants, have as many white friends as he wants,have someone put protective shelter around him and be one of the world's greatest performers. However, at the end of the day, when he comes home he IS STILL A BLACK MAN and this sinister world he live in is not going to let him forget it. The person that is going to learn the most out of all of this is probably MJ himself.


===
i noted the same thing about him joining murder inc. the ones with the freshest, good tunes get him. maddy goes for unknown producers. mj goes for those who are the best currently to acheive the best. and u are right about that at home, and with his family, he is a black man regardless of his skin color. anyone can move anywhere in the world, but their roots and culture will be apparent. and u are correct about mj's "ECCENTRIC" life being the first on the pages of magazines, instead of his accomplishment. and ppl. do downplay his achievemnets. the only part i don't understand right now is how the white entertainers like britney will be first page just cos she is white. she is the hottest thing out now and generate tons of sales for companies like pepsi.mj is seen as the guy who does too much plastic surgerys. maybe it looks bad, but if it looks fine to him and since he has the money for it, it is alright by me. heck, if i had money, i would do tons.but whether ppl. call mj over-rated or not, no one can deny that none of his songs, and singles have meant nothing for them. his dances, his videos, his vision and his music, meant something to millions of people so he deserves to be treated as a legened not some ordinary star who happened to have some hits a few years ago. mj was on top with history. invincible just didn't take off as much.

btw, what type of album did george clintion suggest mj do?
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 07/18/02 5:27am

DavidEye

I'm also disappointed that MJ is working with the Murder Inc. producers for his next album.This just shows that he is trying to make 'Invincible Part 2',where he works with all the "trendy" top 10 producers.I'm sure he'll be calling the Neptunes and Timbalind next...lol...

My theory is that MJ wants to make another big album,filled with radio-friendly hits,have it marketed and promoted effectively and watch it become a success.So,he can say to Sony "told you so!". The same way Prince was able to do when "TMBGITW" became a huge independent hit (leaving Warners with mud on their faces).
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 07/18/02 6:15am

Brother915

subyduby said:

Brother915 said:

BROTHER 9/15's TAKE ON THE WHOLE MJ SITUATION


Point 1- MJ HOOKING UP WITH MURDER RECORDS INC- Well so much for that introsepctive record we were talkng about(LOL). It should be no secret to anyone who has followed MJ over the last 30 years that Mike has always had strong POP ambition.
Mike has always folllowed after the hottest pop trends. Just ask yourself why did Mike tap Quincy Jones in the first place back in 1978 to produce his first EPIC solo album? Because back then Quincy was hottest producer on the R&B/pop scene...see the pattern. So this should come as no surprise.

Point 2-CAREER NOT THE SAME AFTER THRILLER- I try to look at things from a whole lot of angles. Yes, I want Mike to make records with more artistic sheen too but yes he has the biggest selling record of all time. Anytime a record sells what THRILLER sold, that opens the door for more greed. Back in 83 and 84, people at the CBS Record and CD Pressing Plant got $2 dollar raises because of Michael Jackson's Thriller album. Remember Mike's album by itself took the entire recording industry out of a slump(by the way the recording industry is in a sales slump now). But Thriller turned that around. After Thriller, people started back buying records again, not only did they buy MJ's album but they often bought something else too. This was a big boost for the industry. When something sales like this, the pressure is on to duplicate what you did earlier. With sales come $$$, and a lot of people made money off of Mike back in 83 and 84. So what you have is an envrionment that sort of squeezes you to pump out more sales. Mike obviously is not strong enough to say "NO,I won't continue to go the commerical route". And this has stunted his artistic growth. But you still have to respect him because this man has made some of the greatest pop records the whole over and a generation of people (a lot of people here in orgville) has grown up on his music. He is a living legend and deserves to be treated as such.

POINT 3- THE SONY PUBLISHING- Once again, I got to say this but my first post last year here in orgville was the fact that every since Mike took control over that Sony Publishing catalogue {with those Beatles songs}, the mainstream media and press have been dogging him. The reason why and I'll say it again...THE THOUGHT OF A BLACK MAN OWNING THOSE BEATLES SONGS IS A HARD PILL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO SWALLOW. I said it earlier this year, don't believe me...go back into my profile and look in the history of my posts and look for that post in one of the earlier MJ threads. I'm not trying to start a race war in orgville when I say that. I have better things to do with my time than to do this . I have been following the career of Mike every since the 70's and I can look anyone of you in the face and tell you that every since he acquired that catalogue, the mainstream media(comprised of a lot of people who grew up on the Beatles)have been blood thristy for Mike every since. PLEASE NOTE how the media tries to downplay any GOOD thing that Mike may achieve. PLEASE NOTE for example how Mike's anniversary special last year experience stellar ratings and yet USA TODAY only made mention of it on page 2 in the Life//Entertainment section. If that would have been the Backstreet Boys, Brittany Spears or Paul McCartney, it would have been on the front cover of the USA TODAY paper in that upper right hand corner. Yet when they ran an article on Mike, they put this acheivement on page 2 of the Life/Entertainment section and even then they tried to downplay it. But let him do somethig weird(which he has done a lot of in his career), FRONT PAGE news. Oh, they'll mention he has the best selling album of all time, but that's an obvious achievement.

Now, it seems like with all of this MJ stuff in the last month coming out in the open about Sony refusing to promote Mike album so the album will flop and he will ahve to relinquish the catalogue back to them and(especially the Tommy Mottola racist claims). It seems that some of the things I have been saying may be coming to past(AND YES I STILL STAND FIRM IN WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT THIS). Mike can have all the plastic surgery he wants, have as many white friends as he wants,have someone put protective shelter around him and be one of the world's greatest performers. However, at the end of the day, when he comes home he IS STILL A BLACK MAN and this sinister world he live in is not going to let him forget it. The person that is going to learn the most out of all of this is probably MJ himself.


===
i noted the same thing about him joining murder inc. the ones with the freshest, good tunes get him. maddy goes for unknown producers. mj goes for those who are the best currently to acheive the best. and u are right about that at home, and with his family, he is a black man regardless of his skin color. anyone can move anywhere in the world, but their roots and culture will be apparent. and u are correct about mj's "ECCENTRIC" life being the first on the pages of magazines, instead of his accomplishment. and ppl. do downplay his achievemnets. the only part i don't understand right now is how the white entertainers like britney will be first page just cos she is white. she is the hottest thing out now and generate tons of sales for companies like pepsi.mj is seen as the guy who does too much plastic surgerys. maybe it looks bad, but if it looks fine to him and since he has the money for it, it is alright by me. heck, if i had money, i would do tons.but whether ppl. call mj over-rated or not, no one can deny that none of his songs, and singles have meant nothing for them. his dances, his videos, his vision and his music, meant something to millions of people so he deserves to be treated as a legened not some ordinary star who happened to have some hits a few years ago. mj was on top with history. invincible just didn't take off as much.

btw, what type of album did george clintion suggest mj do?



Subyduby, George Clinton said something in Rolling Stone magazine( in 1990) that I have been saying as well for years. He said that Mike needs to get raw. He said that he would put Mike in the studio with Bootsy and some other hardcore funk musicians and let PRINCE produce him. He said that Mike is the only one of the living R&B black performers that can do that "James Brown" thing. He said that SOMEBODY has got to make Mike give up the JB FUNK uncut.. He said that Mike's stuff is too watered down. He said Mike needs to get raw again. And that's what I feel too. Mike is too polished, he needs to get raw and gritty. There are so many things muscially that Mike hasn't even done yet. I'm telling you if he doesn't get RAW, he'll continue to become more irrevelant. Mike is a 43 year old man(he'll be 44 next month on the 29th) for crying out loud and he's still trying to appeal to teenagers. Mike fans have grown up over the years, he has to too.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 07/18/02 6:42am

shane

avatar

It's true that MJ had the biggest tv special but how come this didn't help to push his sales of Invincible up? The reason is that MJ unfortunately has made the transition from pop star to tabloid star. People tuning in just wanted to see what he looked like etc. It was kind of sad watching him repeating all of the same moves for Billy Jean, Beat It etc. 20 years later.

It's true that the media give MJ a hard time, but he has to accept some responsibility in this - paying off a boy who made sexual allegations against him, marrying Lisa-Marie, kissing her on the MTV music awards (do you remember that?), etc. etc. etc. MJ used to appear eccentric and mysterious back in the 80's - now he appears just very wierd and the tabloids have latched onto that.

It's not helping his current case that Sony have reputedly spent $60 on Invincible thus far - so how can they be accused of not wanting to make the album a success? A record company has done its job if it makes sure that people know that a new album has been released - after that it's up to the public to decide if they want to buy it or not. Word of mouth takes over from there. Is there anyone on the planet who doesn't know that Invincible came out last year?

MJ's real problem is that he needed a huge first single to launch the album. People didn't really dig YRMW and that's not sony's fault. Also, the video was strangely sad - as MJ tries to pick up a girl, while doing a video mixing up Beat It and Smooth Criminal and trying to hide his face during most of the shoot.

Michael needs to make some great music and not be so caught up in current music trends. He used to be a trend setter and while those days may be over, I'm sure that he still has alot of valuable things to say.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 07/18/02 7:39am

Brother915

shane said:

It's true that MJ had the biggest tv special but how come this didn't help to push his sales of Invincible up? The reason is that MJ unfortunately has made the transition from pop star to tabloid star. People tuning in just wanted to see what he looked like etc. It was kind of sad watching him repeating all of the same moves for Billy Jean, Beat It etc. 20 years later.

It's true that the media give MJ a hard time, but he has to accept some responsibility in this - paying off a boy who made sexual allegations against him, marrying Lisa-Marie, kissing her on the MTV music awards (do you remember that?), etc. etc. etc. MJ used to appear eccentric and mysterious back in the 80's - now he appears just very wierd and the tabloids have latched onto that.

It's not helping his current case that Sony have reputedly spent $60 on Invincible thus far - so how can they be accused of not wanting to make the album a success? A record company has done its job if it makes sure that people know that a new album has been released - after that it's up to the public to decide if they want to buy it or not. Word of mouth takes over from there. Is there anyone on the planet who doesn't know that Invincible came out last year?

MJ's real problem is that he needed a huge first single to launch the album. People didn't really dig YRMW and that's not sony's fault. Also, the video was strangely sad - as MJ tries to pick up a girl, while doing a video mixing up Beat It and Smooth Criminal and trying to hide his face during most of the shoot.

Michael needs to make some great music and not be so caught up in current music trends. He used to be a trend setter and while those days may be over, I'm sure that he still has alot of valuable things to say.



Good post Shane. I felt that those ballads on MJ's last album WERE AWESOME especially "Butterflies"!!! I thought "Butterflies" was among the best stuff he's done to date. People forget about Mike's secret weapon in his arsenal...THE R&B BALLAD, since he is such a huge pop/dance artist this fact gets overshadowed.Mike's very effective on ballads "Butterflies"definitely should have been released as a single. A video should have been made too. People was looking for a video for that song. . So I still have faith that he can do some great things. Mike just got to focus more on making a true sincere artistic statement and get his mind off of the charts. Gee whiz, he already have the biggest selling album of all time. I don't think that record will be surpassed...not in my lifetime at least.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 07/18/02 10:34am

mltijchr

avatar

This LA Times story has it EXACTLY correct.

It's amazing how far gone Jackson is now, & there are absolutely NO signs of him even beginning to approach any semblance of "reality"..

I am genuinely concerned that Jackson-
upon finally realizing that he really ISN'T the "King of Pop"-
might take his own life.
I seriously & really hope that something like this would never happen, but he is that far gone, & a person who is that far gone is capable of doing anything..


Sad. Truly sad.
I'll see you tonight..
in ALL MY DREAMS..
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 07/18/02 11:00am

ChimChimBadass

avatar

MJ needs someone to give him a good fuck every night biggrin
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 07/18/02 2:58pm

mrchristian

avatar

...that about sums it up.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 07/18/02 7:03pm

mistermaxxx

Brother915 said:

BROTHER 9/15's TAKE ON THE WHOLE MJ SITUATION


Point 1- MJ HOOKING UP WITH MURDER RECORDS INC- Well so much for that introsepctive record we were talkng about(LOL). It should be no secret to anyone who has followed MJ over the last 30 years that Mike has always had strong POP ambition.
Mike has always folllowed after the hottest pop trends. Just ask yourself why did Mike tap Quincy Jones in the first place back in 1978 to produce his first EPIC solo album? Because back then Quincy was hottest producer on the R&B/pop scene...see the pattern. So this should come as no surprise.

Point 2-CAREER NOT THE SAME AFTER THRILLER- I try to look at things from a whole lot of angles. Yes, I want Mike to make records with more artistic sheen too but yes he has the biggest selling record of all time. Anytime a record sells what THRILLER sold, that opens the door for more greed. Back in 83 and 84, people at the CBS Record and CD Pressing Plant got $2 dollar raises because of Michael Jackson's Thriller album. Remember Mike's album by itself took the entire recording industry out of a slump(by the way the recording industry is in a sales slump now). But Thriller turned that around. After Thriller, people started back buying records again, not only did they buy MJ's album but they often bought something else too. This was a big boost for the industry. When something sales like this, the pressure is on to duplicate what you did earlier. With sales come $$$, and a lot of people made money off of Mike back in 83 and 84. So what you have is an envrionment that sort of squeezes you to pump out more sales. Mike obviously is not strong enough to say "NO,I won't continue to go the commerical route". And this has stunted his artistic growth. But you still have to respect him because this man has made some of the greatest pop records the whole over and a generation of people (a lot of people here in orgville) has grown up on his music. He is a living legend and deserves to be treated as such.

POINT 3- THE SONY PUBLISHING- Once again, I got to say this but my first post last year here in orgville was the fact that every since Mike took control over that Sony Publishing catalogue {with those Beatles songs}, the mainstream media and press have been dogging him. The reason why and I'll say it again...THE THOUGHT OF A BLACK MAN OWNING THOSE BEATLES SONGS IS A HARD PILL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO SWALLOW. I said it earlier this year, don't believe me...go back into my profile and look in the history of my posts and look for that post in one of the earlier MJ threads. I'm not trying to start a race war in orgville when I say that. I have better things to do with my time than to do this . I have been following the career of Mike every since the 70's and I can look anyone of you in the face and tell you that every since he acquired that catalogue, the mainstream media(comprised of a lot of people who grew up on the Beatles)have been blood thristy for Mike every since. PLEASE NOTE how the media tries to downplay any GOOD thing that Mike may achieve. PLEASE NOTE for example how Mike's anniversary special last year experience stellar ratings and yet USA TODAY only made mention of it on page 2 in the Life//Entertainment section. If that would have been the Backstreet Boys, Brittany Spears or Paul McCartney, it would have been on the front cover of the USA TODAY paper in that upper right hand corner. Yet when they ran an article on Mike, they put this acheivement on page 2 of the Life/Entertainment section and even then they tried to downplay it. But let him do somethig weird(which he has done a lot of in his career), FRONT PAGE news. Oh, they'll mention he has the best selling album of all time, but that's an obvious achievement.

Now, it seems like with all of this MJ stuff in the last month coming out in the open about Sony refusing to promote Mike album so the album will flop and he will ahve to relinquish the catalogue back to them and(especially the Tommy Mottola racist claims). It seems that some of the things I have been saying may be coming to past(AND YES I STILL STAND FIRM IN WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT THIS). Mike can have all the plastic surgery he wants, have as many white friends as he wants,have someone put protective shelter around him and be one of the world's greatest performers. However, at the end of the day, when he comes home he IS STILL A BLACK MAN and this sinister world he live in is not going to let him forget it. The person that is going to learn the most out of all of this is probably MJ himself.
I DOn't always go for what MJ does as a Artist but IMHO Quincy Jones wasn't the Hottest R&B Producer at the time.you see I'm a Big Earth,Wind&Fire Fan as well&Maurice White would have been the Logical Choice IMHO.Quincy had only worked with the Brothers Johnson in terms of the Style that His Production vibe would take Before He got with MJ.Greg Philliganis one of the baddest Keyboard Players on the Planet said that Q wasn't up on Groove fully on the dance side of the fence.MJ&Him were a Odd Pairing&one that IMHO took a Helluva Risk especially if it doesn't work.Q heavily from the Jazz Side of the tracks&MJ from the R&B/Pop Side.it was a Helluva Gamble but Q wasn't rocking on the R&B&Pop Side at the time like Maurice White.I Agree with Points 2&3.MJ knows He is Black.His Pops showed Him the Business Opening after the Mess at Motown.I don't think MJ will Sign any long term deals now However.also to Me though I can't stand the Association that speaks Volumes about the Respect of His Talent that a Company still wants to Roll with Him.there aren't many Black Acts over 40 that can still Commnad the Attention&Vibe He does.MJ was never fully secure with Sony.when He got Over to CBS then they had to work with Gamble&Huff&while it Produced some Good Stuff Mainly "Let Me show you the way to GO" it also kept them from doing there own thing.they probably would have gotten dropped if "Destiny" hadn't Hit Big.they were so close to Being Dropped.if the MJ&Quincy Risk doesn't work then He is dropped again.His Brothers all got dropped in 89.so MJ has been dealing with Pressure more than folks know or wanna give Him credit for.there is nothing wrong with working with what is happening as long as you don't lose yourself.Berry Gordy schooled MJ on the Long term of the Business&taught Him about the Pop Aspect&for better or for worse that has been His May Focus IMHO.I got that George Clinton Article as well&that was a Helluva Compliment for MJ.He called MJ the Baddest one Out Here.but MJ went for Shine many a time.but let me say I think MJ can come back Proper.He did show some signs on "Invincible" IMHO.also I remember when "Off The Wall&Thriller were called Factory Baked&Now they are Called Classics.so you never know? MJ though is a Surivior&He can Last but Hopefully He will do more than just Sell a Bunch of Records Hopefully He will in the Words Of Rudy Ray Moore "Doolimite" "Put His Weight On it" put the SOul in your Stride because I know you can.
mistermaxxx
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > It's Time for Jackson to face the music