squiddyren said:

The greatest dancers of all time were the stars of the musicals from the 30's and 40's.

Ace said:

- Awesome songs such as (insert your favourites here)
- "Fantastic" songwriter
- Massive inspiration to millions (not in the same way as MJ or Prince, no where near)
- A "fantastic" dancer, performer (personally i just don't see that)
- revolutionized music videos

GoldenGlove said:

You need to get out more then if you think that. That may be your opinion and all, but who are you judging him against? And why am I a "minneapolis wannabe"? I'm from there.

I'm pretty sure I'm a good judge of dancers, being a professional dancer myself and all. And a dance teacher at that. Michael's good. Well, WAS back in the day when it all seemed fresh, but he's got about 5 moves. If one day he decides to expand on that and show me something a bit more original and challenging, then maybe we can talk.

VoicesCarry said:

..... and MJ

squiddyren said:

I'm gonna with my own eyes and the opinion of a professional dancer (minneapolisgenius) over that of a Jacko fanatic anyday.

GoldenGlove said:

Nope.

VoicesCarry said:

RipHer2Shreds said:

"Jacko fanatic"? In the past, I've been quite expressive of my waning MJ fandom. I'm not quite the little fanatic I used to be, by far; I'm just continually aware and admiring of the guy's talents. If it sounded otherwise, that's not the case.

minneapolisgenius said:

http://media.putfile.com/...ance-Moves

View that video, then all will be forgiven

GoldenGlove said:

Madonna wouldn't be a gay inco if she didn't inspire millions of people. on a perosnal level she is responsible for my self discovery of homosexuality. that's mroe than i can say for MJ or Prince personally.

squiddyren said:

Sorry, I was referring to GoldenGlove.

RipHer2Shreds said:

I am not a jacko fanatic. He is my 3rd favorite artsist.

GoldenGlove said:

STOP posting that! I cannot view it, damnit!

calldapplwondery83 said:

Well then don't.

BTW That is the first & last time i have ever posted that video.

"Live to Tell", "Like a Prayer", "La Isla Bonita"... so many other great songs... Technical ability is overrated. I'll take someone that can write a great song over someone that can play great anyday.

I think Sister Sledge had MJ in mind when recording "He's The Greatest Dancer".

coolcat said:

Are you saying that Prince and MJ don't write great songs?

-When Doves Cry
-Billie Jean
-Little Red Corvette
-Black Or White
-Nothing Compares To U
-Dirty Dianna
-Adore
-Rock With You
-Call My Name
-Beat It
-Gett Off
-Heal The World

GoldenGlove said:

I watched it. And I saw those same 5 moves. Don't get me wrong, Michael was so cool back in the day. I WATCHED the Mowtown 25 special when it was on and was glued to the TV. I had a million books about him and my bedroom walls were plastered w/ MJ posters when I was about 11. I knew all the choreography to "Thriller" (still do actually) and still think it's the best choreography in a video to this day. But I've personally worked with dancers that have just blown me away. MJ doesn't even enter the picture when I think of these people IMO.

And don't even get me started on the musical stars of the 40s and 50s.

minneapolisgenius said:

finally someone else who has notice he does the same moves over and over

minneapolisgenius said:

ok, i respect your opinion

GoldenGlove said:

I would suggest "Gone", "Power of Goodbye" and "Secret" (to name a few) are more worthwhile songs than "Billie Jean", "Beat It" or "Dirty Diana".


See above.


She is much more popular than either of them. And she is equally, if not more, inspiring to her fans (and I would suggest that the nature of her inspiration is more important, as it is not solely limited to entertainment).


"Fantastic" dancer? I dunno. But how important is that? She is certainly a dynamic performer and I find her over-all concert experience to be more entertaining than either Prince or MJ.


She raised the bar by taking production values to a whole new level, among other things.

I am not a huge Madonna fan, but to say she is talentless and nowhere near as influential as Prince or Jackson is just inaccurate.

GoldenGlove said:

That's very cool of you.


(oh, and I agree w/ you about Madonna. )

minneapolisgenius said:

YEAH!!!

GoldenGlove said:

The Jackson songs you name may have good hooks (some of them, anyway), but they're lyrical lightweights.

ya know what, michael has done some great things in his career, but over the past decade he's been more media spectacle than artist. look at what madge and prince have accomplished in the past decade, then look at what people remember MJ for over the past decade. it's not to belittle the great things he HAS done, but i'm afraid dude is out of the running right now.

madonna's got her talents. she's a good performer and she knows how to get attention and be interesting. i think she's one of the last true students of the warhol "superstar" school.

Ace said:

don't forget she has won more and been nomiated for more VMA's than any other artist and won the FIRST video vanguard award.

I have nothing to do with this thread.

Mariah is more annoying....

Anxiety said:

Except if she would have been part of that scene, she'd have eventually usurped Andy, taken over the Factory and somehow figured-out how to market it to middle America.

What separates the icon from the merely great The Times


November 04, 2005

Famous for being more famous than famous

Caitlin Moran muses on the qualities that separate the icon from the merely great

Ah, the video to Hung Up. Can there be anything more pleasurable than watching Madonna looning around a brightly lit dance studio dressed in a baggy pink leotard with her arse hanging out? Really, it’s as innocent a joy as watching a dog with its head poked out of the window of a moving car.

Over three minutes and twenty-three seconds, Hung Up has as many sweet treats as a tin of Miniature Heroes. The diverting twist-and-drop-squat dance movement that will account for so many unhappy and rapidly sobering admissions to A&E during the Christmas 2005 office-party season. The bit where Madonna hammers on the huge mirror in the studio like a tipsy tranny trying to get into the video for Take on Me. The moment where, on third or fourth viewing, you realise that she really is wearing a pair of 10 dernier tights cut off at the knee and a leotard whose Lycra content has been grossly mishandled in a hot tumble-dryer — an outfit last seen on Mrs Overall on the Acorn Antiques Christmas special.

Of course, the most important moment of all is the realisation that, despite 22 years in the business, Madonna still dances as if it’s only on the dancefloor that she feels this free, still puts out singles that look like Single of the Year, and still has the ability to stop ongoing pop-culture conversations dead whenever she re-emerges and everyone assesses what the clever old bag has done now. That she is a pop-culture icon goes without saying. That she has been a pop-culture icon for 22 years is little short of astonishing — especially when one considers the nature of what it is to be an icon.

Being iconic isn’t simply about being very famous. If it were, then the BBC’s royal correspondent Nicholas Witchell would be an icon and clearly he isn’t. This is because one of the primary requirements for being an icon is a great complexity rendered very simply, and Witchell is simply a simple person rendered simply.

As an example of a true icon, consider, say, John Lennon. Your brain immediately returns a picture of him being a Beatle, playing Love Me Do and possibly wearing a hat. You could probably sketch him with five lines of a pencil. Anyone would recognise him from the description: “The gobby, druggy one with a hat from the Beatles.”

But of course, there were dozens of facets to Lennon. The sub-Dadaist political activist. The emotionally frail writer of Julia. The leather-clad wife-beater. The breadmaking house-husband. The surrealist author and poet. The bad father (Julian) and the good father (Sean). The composer of both some of the most accessible (Help!, Please Please Me, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away) and the most experimental (Tomorrow Never Knows, Revolution No 9) popular music of the 20th century. Girl and boy bands traditionally have “one of each type” — the joker, the sensitive one, the rough one, the talented one, the Gary Barlow. Icons have “one of each type” all on their own.

And, of course, each type not only brings with it its own fan base — Dylan fans who are into only the acoustic stuff, Judy Garland fans who liked her best when she was fat and avoided paying hotel bills by threatening to jump out of a window, screaming “Everyone will remember this as the place where Dorothy died!” — but it also keeps casual observers constantly intrigued. There’s something in an icon for everyone; they appeal to vastly different ages, cultures and sexual persuasions.

The mark of a true icon is when no one can ever truthfully say “I hate Elvis” or “I hate Michael Jackson”. No one really hates Elvis, or Michael Jackson. You might hate dim, manipulated GI Elvis, but you’ve got to love wearing-a-jumpsuit-getting-a-drug-badge-from-Richard-Nixon Elvis, or In the Ghetto Elvis, or Comeback Special Elvis, or shooting televisions Elvis, or Elvis’s face, or just the fact that he seemed to build a world full of screaming teenagers out of nothing but postwar depression and dust.

And so it is with Madonna. I wouldn’t trust anyone who said they hated Madonna. What — you hate all 27 Madonnas? It’s statistically unlikely that anyone who hated Madonna being, say, True Blue bleach-crop Madonna would also hate Madonna-turning-into-a-murder-of-crows Frozen Madonna, and Madonna-as-Evita Madonna, and Madonna-as-hippy-club-matriarch Ray of Light Madonna, and Madonna-as-pan-racial-sexual-evangelist Like a Prayer Madonna. The odds must be up there with hating, say, everyone in Cardiff, or everyone call “Jen”.

When Madonna was inducted into the UK Music Hall of Fame last year, no one could really argue the case against. In a list that included Elvis Presley, the Beatles, Bob Marley, Michael Jackson, Queen, the Rolling Stones and U2 she looked eminently at home, despite being both the only woman and the only dance artist. And after this year’s ceremony — she will still be the only woman in the Hall.

And she’s also starting to look like one of the only icons. The influx of musically exemplary but iconically lacking nominees — The Who, the Kinks, Joy Division/New Order, Pink Floyd — reinforces just how rare Madonna is. For not only is she one of the few artists who could fill three Best Ofs, spanning three decades, with no filler, but she still has so many Madonnas to chose from in her cupboard of heads that you never know who you’re going to get next.

This is not something you can say about the three men wearing jeans from New Order, say, or the four men wearing jeans from Pink Floyd, or the two men wearing jeans from The Who. And, of course, none of them has got that arse. Or, indeed, would put it there, like that.


The UK Music Hall of Fame is broadcast on Channel 4 on Thurs, Nov 17, at 9pm

UK Music Hall of Famers

2004: The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Bob Marley, Elvis Presley, Queen, Cliff Richard & the Shadows, the Rolling Stones, U2, Robbie Williams. Honorary — Island Records founder, Chris Blackwell

2005: Jimi Hendrix, the Kinks, Pink Floyd, Bob Dylan, Joy Division/New Order, Ozzy Osbourne/Black Sabbath, the Who. Honorary — DJ John Peel

Ace said:

Oh Andy. He brought a lovely painting to her and Sean's wedding. He was taken by her. I don't think there will ever be social commenatary like his again, because we have become so soundbite driven. Also there will never be superstars again. Big buisness has stepped in and prevented people from establishing their own legends.