minneapolisgenius said:

He fits in just fine. I'm worried about his world, though. Muscle Shoals closing is a fucken travesty.

JediMaster said:

Yeah, sorry 'bout that.



Those are good points Jedi. Maybe the timing was off; it does seem that the music press was open to the idea of a garage rock boom when it did occur due to the phalanx and inundation of teen pop that was on the airwaves at the time. Yet, I still think there's something to be said about the reviews of Black rock musicians. I've read reviews for Living Colour and other Black rock bands and I dont know, there seems to be a bit of "how dare you?" implied in their write ups. I take great offence to that.



Yeah, every critic is a failed musician. But respect is demanded, methinks. And if Kravitz is going to be panned in the annals of rock history, add monsieur White to that list as well.


----
[Edited 10/26/05 6:16am]
[/quote]

blackguitaristz said:

I didnt quite catch what you were saying in the first part of your post but in the second part, I agree with your sentiments.

At the end of the day, despite all the negative reviews, black people wondering why you do rock and basically not supporting you and white people looking at you like you're crazy to do rock, you should succeed despite what they say.

A black man playing rock is one of the most natural things in the world. WE CREATED ROCK! Play your Sabbath and know that Iommi is basically slowing down Muddy Waters! Infuse your music and style with Zeppelin, knowing that Page wishes he were Robert Johnson!

Succeed despite what anybody says; and that is what Lenny Kravitz has done.

chuckaducci said:

Wow, you must have rushed out of bed early just to log onto the org and check out what I had to say. I'm flattered.

Regarding your very last statement, how is that the first point I've made in this entire debate?

"You got it, sister. I guess my Liszt/Wagner analogy went right over your head. I dont care who your bedfellows are, I just care what YOU do."
Why? Wow, you really ARE a total asshole then if for some reason you care more about what music I listen to then the fact that the Crowes support, and I reiterate, PROFITED off of stolen blues songs. There goes any respect I ever had for you and your opinion after reading this. You're still not addressing that directly, and the reason why is that I'm guessing you never thought about that before. Maybe you should start thinking about it, and stop wasting time worrying about my musical taste and morals. It's making you look bad.

And just listen to the HATRED in your posts regarding Bowie, Beck, Clapton, etc. It's really unbecoming. You also seem to be obsessed with reviews for some reason. And before you start bitching about an artist, at least get their damn name correct!

You can keep trying to "put me in my place" (which is laughable) but you'll only come off as bitter, ignorant, and confused. Or should I say "dazed and confused".

If you could learn how to post without that condescending attitude, present some logic that actually made sense and wasn't peppered with holes, and not be SO desperate to always prove everyone else wrong, maybe I (and others as well) could actually take you seriously and perhaps empathize with you. Sadly, that is not the case.

Oh, and I was just asking about Steve Cropper because I wondered how you feel about a white man writing soul music. How do you explain that one?

chuckaducci said:

Page never wished he was Robert Johnson. If he ever wished he was anyone, it would have to be Bert Jansch.

edit to say that chuckaducci is now trying to tell blackguitaristz how to play his music and how he should think about it.
[Edited 10/26/05 7:12am]

minneapolisgenius said:

What the fuck?! YOU were on this site before I was! Don't worry about when I get on to diss, er, reply to your posts.



Actually, that was the first point you made where I didnt have to beat you over your head in order for you to finally get it.



I AM an asshole. What're you going to do about it? And I dont care who you listen to; you chimed in with this:

chuckaducci said:

MG said:

..and that's when this debate started. Like I said, when I see anyone espousing that Zeppelin mystique, coupled with me being in a "I Hate Lenny Kravitz Thread" I'm going to start stepping on toes. So dont tell me that I care what you listen to. Cos initially, I didnt.



Aww, you're just mad cos I think your favorite band is a bunch of hacks. And if you dont like my opinions, stop replying. All I'm saying is that you know that Zeppelin plagiarized, you admit that it was stupid, but yet you're still saying that Zeppelin deserves all the critical laudation they receive? Sounds like YOU need to stop posting and "emoticon-ing" and THINK.



Thats a weak point. Get it together, Minneapolisgenius.



I was joking with you, twinkle toes. Let's keep this thread one of mirth.



What the fuck?! Oh, so because you dont like my posting style, you refuse to acknowledge my pointS? LOL. I'm not going to change for you. I make my points, I leave. My writing style and my sense of humor may be hard to take, but you know exactly what I'm saying. If y'all stop trippin' over my style and start addressing my points, we could have more of a conversatin.....I dont believe this!



I mean, do you read my posts?! I dont care what color you are! Cropper has held it down for Black musicians since he got put on.

chuckaducci said:

First of all, I was on this site first today because there is this thing called the Atlantic Ocean (you may have heard of it) that separates us. When that happens, there is what's called "different time zones". Thus, I am hours ahead of you.

"Actually, that was the first point you made where I didnt have to beat you over your head in order for you to finally get it."

Now you're really not making sense. I'll say it again: maybe Beck's putting out better music than Lenny is right now, and that's why he's getting better reviews. You wanted to hear me say that? I thought you hated Beck. Why would you have to "beat me over the head" to get THAT out of me, when you don't even agree?

And you don't need to bring up how this argument started. I am well aware. Maybe YOU keep forgetting what you've posted yourself, but I don't.

"Aww, you're just mad cos I think your favorite band is a bunch of hacks. And if you dont like my opinions, stop replying. All I'm saying is that you know that Zeppelin plagiarized, you admit that it was stupid, but yet you're still saying that Zeppelin deserves all the critical laudation they receive? Sounds like YOU need to stop posting and "emoticon-ing" and THINK. "

And you're just mad that you can't change my mind about them. I could care less if you think my favorite band is a bunch of hacks. I could say the same for you as well: if you don't like MY opinions, than stop posting! But you won't because you're one of those people who always has to have the last word. And all I'm saying is that YOU need to stop and think about that selective reasoning problem that you have. You know, saying that you "reveled" in the fact that the Crowes played Zeppelin. Now it's my turn to say "WTF?!" That's sounds pretty hypocritical to me. And your Liszt/Wagner analogy didn't go right over my head, I just didn't address it because it was a really stupid one. Why you would feel the need to bring Hitler into this discussion is beyond me. And yeah, I do think Zeppelin deserves critical praise for their contribution to rock music. Simply because they were one of the most influential bands, had some amazing compositions, and their chemistry was undeniable. EVEN with the plagerism.

and then this:
"What the fuck?! Oh, so because you dont like my posting style, you refuse to acknowledge my pointS? LOL. I'm not going to change for you. I make my points, I leave. My writing style and my sense of humor may be hard to take, but you know exactly what I'm saying. If y'all stop trippin' over my style and start addressing my points, we could have more of a conversatin.....I dont believe this"

Again: HYPOCRITE! When have I not addressed most of your points? I don't acknowledge most of your points as valid (meaning, I don't agree with them, which is what you want everyone to do) because they don't hold any weight! Not because I just don't read them.

And, a weak point I made about your hatred of Beck, Clapton, Bowie, etc.? How so? You haven't addressed that one either, probably because that would mean you'd have to come to terms with the fact that it comes across as pretty racist.

But anyway, you just go ahead and keep digging that hole. It's fun to watch.
[Edited 10/26/05 9:52am]

chuckaducci said:

I never said that white or black folks didn't like what I do, cuz they do. Never said that they didn't support what I do, because they very much do. They've been waiting a very long time for my sound, so I'm told. But I already know what u are saying cuz that's pretty much what I said. Trust me, I've been living it for over half my life.

chuckaducci said:

Sure, u caught the first part cuz u responded to the first part.

minneapolisgenius said:

Don't trip, baby girl. YOU know my sound and the truth.

blackguitaristz said:

No, I think he meant the post above that one. The part where you mention me.

To the post above:

No really! Say what you mean!



[Edited 10/26/05 8:31am]

chuckaducci said:

Fuggedaboutit! I was just glad to no longer be confused!



I totally think so.



As well you should. I'm certainly not saying there is no racism whatsoever with music critics, and there certainly is a mentality amongst some of them that "white" artists should play "white" music, and "black" artists should play "black" music. I've seen the Living Colour reviews you speak of, as well as reviews of George Michael and Hall & Oates where they are likewise attacked for doing soul. Possibly the reason that Beck doesn't get this kind of backlash has more to do with the fact that his music isn't purely "black" in its sound. It is bizzare enough, and "white" enough, that it doesn't raise the ire of people who think that certain races should be doing certain genres. Same goes for Outkast, who lean to the funk side, even with the rock influences.

On the whole though, I don't think Kravitz is being attacked because of his race. Maybe with a few critics, but not all. I think it has more to do with critical backlash of a former "darling" of the media than anything. Lenny still gets lots of airplay on pop and rock radio, and his concert audience is probably 60% white (this is just an estimate, based on my own observations, and shouldn't be taken as scientific in any way).





As far as I'm concerned, screw that! Lenny and Jack should both get props for being great musicians. I respect both of them, regardless of how derivitive they are. In fact, I would say that your debate with Minneapolisgenius over Led Zepplin absolutely illustrates that point. No one can deny that they were derivitive, yet no one should deny that they were also a major influence in rock history. So much more needs to be considered when it comes to music than so-called originality. After all, all musicians today are just building on something that has come before.

i thought kravitz was the man until are u gonna go my way...thats when the mega poser days began IMO...i do think the general publics opinion of him...(im not talking about narrowminded groupie types) is reflected in this post i found on a news group...


*****
Lenny Kravitz is such a poser. No matter how big he makes his afro or how wide
he makes his bellbottoms, he will NEVER be a classic. Oh yeah, and his guitar-playing talent is on par with an 11th-grade
talent show. He can hopefully do one thing very similar to Jimi
Hendrix....choke to death on his own vomit.
*****


I DONT FEEL THIS WAY...but i do kinda consider him a phoney...more because of his whole love and peace trip...mixed with his fuck shallow models and party daily lifestyle...while being a notorious womanizer and cheating on miss bonet ....musically who doesnt borrow ????? but i do feel like his growth has stopped...he sounds like he´s rehashing past glories these days..

TheSmyrk said:

The Donnas are over-produced? You haven't heard their first four albums.

I think all the former bands you have mentioned have been criticized very much for their influences (maybe not Kings Of Leon) so I think you're wrong in saying nobody ever points out the similarities.

And I don't know of any publication that thinks Simple Plan and Good Charlotte are quality artists.

sextonseven said:

I would hope not.

blackguitaristz said:

Yes I do.

Hey Chuck, dig; MinnieG is one of the "smarter" orgers on here and definately one of the most passionate. Not feeling like I got to speak for her, cuz as u have seen, she can more than hold her own. She's waaay more hip to the fact that Zeppelin had bit hard as fuck off of brothers such as Robert Johnson. There is no trace of racism in any of her comments, ever. That's not what time it is when it comes to her. Opinions aside, there's never any need in pledging a case to her when it comes to black music, black musicians, or brothers who play rock, which is black music anyways. She's hip to that. U will find that, on here, there are a clique of brothers, including myself, who are the real deal when it comes to the topic of black rockers. Were just not giving "opinions". We ARE the living, breathing "thing" of which is discussed. We speak of "the experience" because we are LIVING "the experience".

blackguitaristz said:

Wow bg, thanks for that. And yes, you know me very well when it comes to music and how I feel about it.

minneapolisgenius said:

Ouch, not so tight. U know my ribs are sore and shit.

minneapolisgenius said:

Y'know what? I'm tired of replying to MG. She doesnt get it. We are both starting to knit-pick each other and I'm beating a dead horse. I'll say it one last time to her:

I Do Not Like Led Zeppelin Because They Are Part Of A Large Segment Of White Musicians Who Have Stolen And Profitted From Black Art In The Past, While Those Very Same Black Artists Starved And Were Horribly Impecunious. Please Imagine My Animosity While Being Mostly A Black Rock Musician.

But to honor the thread, the main reason why I've been here arguring is this:

I Think That Lenny Kravitz Gets Denigrated For Being Derivative While Others Such As Him Are Lauded, Stinks Of Overt Racism.

So honey, if you've a new reply to those two statements alone, I'll be most happy to indulge you. Until then,.....

Blackguitaristz said:

Save the sob story, mon frere. You're not the only artist on this board who is black and does rock. And I never said YOU said that white and blacks didnt like what you do. Do not put words in my mouth. Also, with that being said, that post wasn't entirely directed towards you. I was saying that to EVERY Black rock musician.

Blackguitaristz said:

If you didnt feel you had to speak for her why did you? Thats okay though, debating both of y'all doesnt bother me. If you're homegirl is hip to the game of Zeppelin's questionable past, why does she still claim them as her favorite band? Isn't that odd to you? Imagine if you found out that Hendrix stole not one but several of Jeff Beck's tunes and never creditted him. Would that sit well with you? Would you still hold Hendrix in the same artistic esteem that you now do? Would you go around telling people that Hendrix was still you're favorite guitarist? Wouldn't that abase Hendrix's art to you? Think about it.



I mean, I've never called MG a racist! Please, find a post where I even hinted towards that! Until you do, please stfu.



Um, so what?! Because I'm not going around shouting from the rooftops that I too am a Black rock artist here on the prince.org message board, and that I'm living the experience of a America who shuns Black rock artists, does that mean my point is not valid? Why do you think I'm so impassioned about this topic? Cos I'm getting it from a book?! Cos I saw some stupid movie? Negro please! Y'all aint the only ones. And you say that proudly, as if it's some sort of birthright. Gimme a break. Sling that boastful lament to some teenager poster or some idiot poster..

Don't give me no cereal box top speech about how you're part of a clique of brothers here living the experience of a black rock musician and that makes your point more valid than mine.

(spelling edit)
[Edited 10/26/05 12:46pm]

Thievery In Progress:

"White Summer" -- Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" -- Anne Bredon

"You Shook Me" -- Willie Dixon

"I Can't Quit You Baby" -- Willie Dixon.

"Communication Breakdown" -- Eddie Cochran "Nervous Breakdown."

"How Many More Times" -- Howlin Wolf's "How Many More Years,"
Albert King's "The Hunter," Zeppelin's version is lyrically
related to a cover called "How Many More Times" by Gary
Farr and the T-Bones

"Dazed And Confused" -- Jake Holmes

"Black Mountain Side" -- traditional, Annie Briggs, Bert Jansch
The main riff is almost identical to the riff Jansch uses
in his song "BlackWater Side"

"The Lemon Song" -- Chester Burnett (a/k/a Howlin Wolf) "Killing
Floor," Robert Johnson ("squeeze my lemon" lyric).

"Moby Dick" -- Bobby Parker (music), Ginger Baker's "Toad" (drum
solo). The song was originally entitled "The Girl I Love,"
which was written in 1929 by Sleepy John Estes and called
"The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair." There are also
some drum lines lifted intact from George Suranovich's drum
solo with Arthur Lee's Love's song "Doggone."

"Whole Lotta Love" -- Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" (lyrics).
"Thank You" -- There is a striking chordal similarity to Traffic's
"Dear Mr. Fantasy."

"Bring It On Home" -- Written by Willie Dixon, though the Sonny
Boy Williamson II version is the one which this bears a
similarity to. The "Lemon Song" lawsuit also included
language about this song.

"Traveling Riverside Blues" -- Johnny Winter's "Leavin' Blues"
(music only), plus lyrical references to Robert Johnson,
St. Louis Jimmy Oden, and Sleepy John Estes.

"Since I've Been Loving You" -- brief lyrical nod to Moby Grape's
"Never."

"Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" -- intro lifted from "The Waggoner's Tale" by
Bert Jansch.

"Gallows Pole" -- traditional, associated with Leadbelly. Page
says that his version was based on a cover of the song by
Fred Gerlach.

"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" -- traditional, Bukka White (song
entitled "Shake 'Em On Down"), also covered by Joe Lee
Williams and Blind Lemon Jefferson.

"Black Dog" -- the vocal arrangement is very similar to Fleetwood
Mac's "Oh Well."

"Rock And Roll" -- drawn from Little Richard's "Good Golly Miss
Molly/Keep A Knockin'" (mostly the drum line).

"Stairway To Heaven" -- Possible (though unlikely) lift from
"And She's Lonely" by The Chocolate Watch Band, which
became the intro chords. There's really no way of knowing
for sure. The solo chords are also similar to the chords
of Dylan's (and Hendrix's) "All Along The Watchtower,"
though the chord progression is hardly uncommon and any
direct influence is also unlikely. A more believable lift
might be from Spirit's "Taurus," an instrumental from their
_Time Circle_ album--the intro from "Stairway" is remarkably
similar, and Page and Plant were certainly aware of the band.

"When The Levee Breaks" -- Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe McCoy.

Physical Graffiti_ -- The album cover is identical in concept
and very similar in design to the cover of the Jose
Feliciano album _Compartments_, including the pull-out
card and the "hidden" photos.

"Custard Pie" -- Sleepy John Estes did a song entitled "Drop
Down Daddy" in 1935, which seems to be the earliest source
for this material. Blind Boy Fuller recorded a song
entitled "I Want Some Of Your Pie" in 1939. Sonny Terry
covered it with the title "Custard Pie Blues." Big Joe
Williams also covered it under the title "Drop Down Mama,"
and his lyrics are pretty much identical to Plant's. There
is also some Bukka White material in the song.

"In My Time Of Dying" -- Traditional. First recorded by Blind
Willie Johnson as "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed," which is
more like the Zeppelin version than the well-known Bob
Dylan cover. Plant has cited Josh White's 1933 "Jesus
Make Up My Dying Bed" as the source for Zeppelin's version.
A much closer version appears on the self-titled album
by the Canadian band Fear Itself, whose "In My Time OF
Dying" is credited to Ellen McIlwaine, the band's lead
singer and slide guitarist. Besides many musical and
length similarities, the Fear Itself version ends with
the line, "My dying...cough."

"Boogie With Stu" -- Ritchie Valens

"Nobody's Fault But Mine" -- Blind Willie Johnson (lyrics).

"We're Gonna Groove" -- Ben E. King, James Bethea.

"Darlene" -- One line from Don McLean's "American Pie."

I mean, if this is the work habit of anyone's favorite band, holy smokes and gee whiz.

~ this condensed version is taken from www.iem.ac.ru/zeppelin/docs/FAQ.html#18

If I EVER hear of Kravitz being derivative again, I'm diggin up Nat Turner, Cochise and John Brown.

Greg Russo has written Yardbirds: Ultimate Rave-Up which provides some more thievery from Page's days of hanging with Beck. It's a good read. Read an article by W.Shade, based on Russo's book at:

www.furious.com/perfect/yardbirds1.html
[Edited 10/26/05 13:28pm]

for those of you just tuning in:

Some of us really like Lenny Kravitz's first four albums.
Zeppelin sucks and they are thieves.
Zeppelin are gods.
The Black Crowes shit all over Zeppelin.
No they don't, but they're pretty good.
Blah Blah Blah.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

All i'm going to say before I abandon this thread is the following:

This thread began great, it's nice to see some people giving Kravitz his props for a change. I am in the "zeppelin are gods" camp, and I adore the Crowes as well. Yes, all three of these bands wear their influences on their sleeves. That's ok, really. I love the Faces and Jeff Beck group, and since the Crowes did that sort of thing well, especially on their early albums, I love them too. I grew up listening to the sort of stuff that Kravitz emulates on his albums, so I love his music too. Zeppelin, once again are Gods. Nobody ever rocked harder than Page, Plant, Jones and the king of drummers Bonham. Kids, it's ok to like artists who play music that reminds you of bands from the past. You don't have to admit it to anyone tho, if that makes you happy. Bye.

Kravitz fans: thanks for the effort but this is a perfect example of why I don't bother making Kravitz threads in this forum. People suck.

smokeverbs said:

You'd never know this was about Lenny to begin with!

Why don't blues artists sue each other for all using the same riffs, chords, melodies and starting songs with "I woke up this morning?"

Chuck, stall on doing the very thing that u are putting on me. Never said your points weren't valid. Making my point doesn't put me on any rooftop or mean I'm making a speech. If it comes off grandoise, that's because it is! It's still just me making a point. I'm not tripping on how u phrase shit, so don't trip off mine. I understand about Zeppelin and their theivery. Quite a bit about it, actually. Thankfully, Jimi didn't rob Jeff Beck of his songs. But, while were rapping, Jimi DID bite hard off of Pete visually. The concept of a power trio, ala Cream. The wah-wah, first introduced to him by Clapton. The clothes, the smashing of his axe, etc. Of course, Jimi looked waaaaay cooler in those clothes and played the wah-wah as if he had invented the effect. I'm hip to it. My clique on here is just a Band of Gypsies. Never said that we are the only ones. We, I, know better than that. It's not about exclusion, player. Just making a point. A lot of what u have said on these posts, I myself have said in various posts on various threads. Never said that u said Minnie was a racist. I brought up Minnie cuz I felt u were reading her wrong. Period. If u weren't, then right on. I feel that she does "get" where u are coming from. But, she's still going to dig Zepp. I dig Zepp! Always have. Doesn't keep me from knowing that they bit off of Black American Music. Like damn near ALL rock bands have.

Andyman91 said:

This is the most ignorant post I've read in this thread; I wont even honor it by making a full retort.

Andyman91 said:

Chuck said:

So, I've made attempts to not hijack the original thread.

smokeverbs said:

LOL. Why dont you go ahead and direct that towards me! And I'm sure Lenny Kravitz is heartbroken that Smokeverbs is in constant turmoil over whether or not to make a thread about him.

So, I've been called "condescending" "asshole" and indirectly, someone thinks I "suck."

Wah.

blackguitaristz said:

Um, thinking that because you're in a clique of black rock musicians on the Prince board is grandiose? It's delusional. How does that set you apart? It shouldnt. Why? Cos a black rock musician is just as natural as a black hip hop artist. It's not some new fangled idea. It's OUR idea. That's what I've been saying. It's not a rarity to me. I dont know why you'd think it's "grandiose." Do you catch what I'm saying?



LOL! So what? I mean, let's keep the trivials to a bare minimum people. I dont care if Hendrix talked like Clapton, walked like Page and stank like Townshend. At the end of the day, his MUSIC was all His. That is ALL that I care about.

Second of all, for you to say that there is no trace of racism in MG's posts implies that you and/or her thought that I was making such a claim. If you read my posts first, instead of reading her responses to my posts, maybe you'd get a clearer picture before entering into the fray with us.

But, for the sake of the thread, and humanity(!), let's find some semblances of cordiality. I'll keep the 'tude in check.

EDIT:

Hey, Blackguitaristz, I've thought about what you said concerning your group of black guitarists here on the board. This is my take on it, because I didnt say how I feel and what I thought the way I wanted to in this post.

I think it's wrong for you to feel that somehow, you and your black rock musician friends are undertaking a cause that is "grandiose" or privileged in some way. I think it's wrong for you to think that because you are a black musician who writes and plays rock, that you are somehow special. Why?

...Because in thinking that what you are doing is grandiose and/or special, is indirectly saying to yourself that what America thinks about blacks and rock n roll is right: that black musicians are NOT supposed to play rock and that the genre of rock is solely a vehicle of artistic expression meant for white musicians.

This is wrong. And it is wrong to feel special about being a black rock musician. It is NORMAL for blacks to do rock. Why? Because we created rock. Black rock musicians are not special; in that, white America does not own rock. A black man playing rock is as instrinsically black as Miles Davis running the voodoo down. Miles Davis isn't special because he played jazz. Miles Davis is special because he revolutionized jazz.

So, I refuse to think that what I do in music, when it is in the genre of rock, makes me special or is some sort of grandiose statement; I think this way because I will not let America tell me that to do otherwise is an anomaly.
[Edited 10/26/05 15:24pm]

chuckaducci said:

Of course it's ridiculous. My point is that EVERY artist "steals." It's how they learn. Every artist is a composite of their experiences, the old blues masters are no exception. It's all the more impressive that Zeppelin could "steal" from everyone from Robert Johnson to Jose Feliciano and make it all so Zeppelin.