minneapolisgenius said:

John Paul Jones isn't the songwriter whose tunes are dead on ringers for others. Jimmy Page is.



Keep your cool, miss lady. I was referring to your post about the Crowes' Zeppelin influence being "obvious" which I dont think is true. You know your shit. Just cos I said it needed polish doesnt mean you're wholly nescient of the history.



Why is that bullshit? Are you suggesting that most rock artists these days do not cast a nostalgic glance back to the 70s, an era replete of influence? If you're in a huff cos I suggested you polish your history, so what? Because of this debate, I've polished up mine!



Um, I've nothing to say cos I never said that you were guilty of denigrating Kravitz; I placed most of my blame onto the music press. If Kravitz wants to do a retro rock, fine by me. He shouldn't be chastised for doing so though! To me, criticizing Kravitz for being too influenced is like criticizing Muddy Waters for sounding like Robert Johnson plugged in.





Thats how I come off to you, fine. But you're hardly an objective participant, Miss Jimmy Page avatar. I'm hardly objective as well, but my judgment and rancor is based on a phenomenon that isn't just music; it's a cultural thing.

"It don't take a rocket scientist working on a 27 hour a day schedule to de-mystify charlatans and deconstruct con artists."



Hey, Zeppelin is a fun listen. Zeppelin is a big influence on the course of rock. But in my eyes, Zeppelin does not deserve all the credit that is bestowed upon them.



It's been fun but I sense that your sense of enjoyment is quickly fleeing.



Hostile?! Cos I told you to polish up on your history?! Please! Because of you, I've had to do the same. Don't take that as an insult.

But if you realize that British and American men profitted off of the seeds planted by black Americans while those very same black Americans are broke as hell, I'd have some moral qualms with calling those same Brits and Americans my "favorite band." It almost like saying "I know it's wrong, but David Duke is my favorite racist", imo.

But again, to each his own. And I apologize for upsetting you.

chuckaducci said:

I have no moral qualms about Led Zeppelin being my favorite rock band.

You can say you "apologize for upsetting me" all you want, but I find that hard to believe after your thinly-veiled attempt at calling me a racist for liking one particular band.

Racism goes both ways you know. You shouldn't take all your anger out on me. I'm just one out of millions.
[Edited 10/24/05 14:44pm]

DAMN ... u two are sure goin at it...sounds like u should link up and start the U.S classic rock debate team or sumthin...
just kidding guys...its nice to see people so passionate about tunes...

chuckaducci said:

I agree witcha. We've discussed this to death on here on different threads.

JediMaster said:

Wow! Well said.

chuckaducci said:

Such crap saying racist this and that all the time

Dig, I'm just glad and somewhat shocked that there are so many folks on here who digs Lenny. For the longest, I didn't think that there were many on here who dug his stuff. After Baptism came out, I saw a grip of posts bashing the hell out of Lenny. I've always stated on here that I respect Lenny as a brother doing what he wants to do. I agree with a lot of the posts on here; he did fall off hard after 5. But overall, his output has been strong. I've seen Kravitz 3 times in concert. And in various times in his career. Lenny knows that he's not a lead guitarist and he's smart enough to employ Ross. That said, I ADORE his Let Love Rule album. It's one of my faves from Lenny and I have all of his albums. He's one of the rare cats that's out there that when he comes out with a new joint, I'll get it just out of support.

Dewrede said:

Yes, but when it's valid, it's valid.

minneapolisgenius said:

It's MY point - and I say that you are VERY cute, dammit!!!

Your passion about music is such a turn-on

blackguitaristz said:

And YOU of all people should be one to jump in here in this whole discussion, because I know you are also a Led Zeppelin fan. What's your take on it?

JesseDezz said:

Well, thank you again.

Dewrede said:

I'm still really not understanding chuckaducci's claims that Lenny is constantly being slammed for showing his influences. And that it would be because of his race as well. I mean, Lenny is a HUGE star. A much bigger star than Beck. Kravitz is a multi-millionaire and plays to sold out stadiums, so I just don't understand why he's so angry. Like he's had no success or something. I think he pays way too much attention to what the critics think and say. Me, I never read reviews.

chuckaducci said:

They all show off their influences, no doubt about it. I just think Lenny is more obvious. I'm NOT SAYING that is a bad thing, as he's never tried to make some declaration that he is incredibly original. In fact, he is pretty honest about the fact that he is a musical blender. I respect him for his honesty.




Well, off the top of my head I'll cite "Again" which is pretty much a rewrite of "Wherever U Go, Whatever U Do". The song has the same melody, and an almost identical tune.

As for Lenny and P having nothing in common, you gotta be kidding! Lenny has cited Prince as one of his main influences time and time again (have you ever seen pics of him from when he was "Romeo Blue"? Dude was copping Prince in a major way). They both blend funk and rock, wear outrageous clothing and mix sexuality and spirituality in their work. Lenny has even stated that the two have played, uncredited, on each other's albums.



Again, nothing is wrong with this. Kravitz is borrowing from Zepplin, most definitely. I don't argue at all that Zepplin borrowed heavily from classic bluesmen, although I don't think it's this aspect that Lenny borrows from Zepplin. Lenny goes more for the crunching rock riffs and licks than he does for blues



That is your opinion. Absolutely, Outkast has copped Prince, as has Beck. I just think they come up with more original stuff than Lenny. That doesn't mean I respect Lenny any less. He is a phenomenal musician, and should get props for that.



That has been my argument from the beginning of this thread. You seem to get mad that I say that Beck and Outkast blend their infuences better, but that isn't a criticism so much as an observation. I don't think Lenny is really TRYING to blend them. I think his goal is to write tunes that please his ear, and he really doesn't care if they come off as sounding Prince-ish, Zepplin-ish, etc.



Ummm, he IS bigger than Beck. Every one of his albums has consistently sold more than any of Beck's, so that argument holds no water.

Beck is definitely more popular with the critics, but then again, so is Outkast. In fact, Outkast is the current darling of the music press, AND their records sell quite well, so I don't think you can really say Lenny is being discriminated against. If anything, Lenny gets more love from white rock fans than Beck or Prince do today. Lenny is much more palatable to a mainstream audience than Beck, and thus will always sell more records. Beck is more of a cult artist who's had a couple of hits. Lenny has had multiple hits over his career (way more than Beck or Outkast)

minneapolisgenius said:

agreed

minneapolisgenius said:

Difference between you and me.



I ain't gon' force you to accept my apology nor grovel. Take it or leave it; it was with total sincerity. And I've never intimated that you were a racist. If you're going to level such charges, prove it sister.



Again, with this "racism" thing; I've only used that term in describing the treatment Kravitz receives from the press and the result of penniless Black American bluesmen today are although they were the direct influence of 70's blues-rock bands. I think it's shitty that Bo Diddley et al ain't paid and I attribute their financial status to that of blatant racism. As far as calling boardies racist, how dare you!




Um, maybe you would understand my frustration if you actually read Kravitz's reviews. Kravitz is successful despite the racist press. I care nothing for your papier mache artist Beck.

Jedi said:

I've never heard that song you've mention, so until I do, you got me there. However, I will say that if you can only choose one song off the top of your head, your charge of Kravitz biting Prince beats is a little over the top. And second of all, your mentioning of the fact that Kravitz went by the name Romeo Blue as an ode to Prince, that they both meld their rock, pop and soul influences in the same manner and both have daring satorial tastes still doesnt meant that if you listen to a Prince record and Kravitz record, that you'll virtually listening to the same song. Those things you mentioned have NOTHING to do with MUSIC. And furthermore, what Black musician DOESNT blend the profane with his or her spirituality?! Kravitz, Prince, Hendrix, Davis, Sly Stone, R.Kelly, Marvin Gaye, me, 2Pac, Nas, the list goes on and on. Yeah, I said it...me!



I disagree wholeheartedly. Outkast is the work of more than just Andre and Big Boi (Organized Noize should be getting most of Outkast's glory) while Beck relies on producers (Nigel Godrich and the Dust Brothers) to helm his lps. Kravitz is a one man band; doing it on his own and doing it well. I think if Kravitz was some artsy-fartsy Jack Black type, he wouldnt get all this hate.

Additionally, or on the other hand, I don't think Beck and Outkast's originality outshines any individuality that Kravitz possesses; if they do, it ain't by much, methinks.



This is exactly the source of my beef. BECK IS JUST AS DERIVATIVE AS KRAVITZ IS!!! Why is he the darling?! I don't care about record sales. I care about musical respect. Kravitz gets none while I see artists who are just as derivative as he is, getting face fed how great they are. Look at Jack Black; you'd thought that white boy invented the guitar the way the press oohs and aahs and fusses over him. He's doing old Delta blues tunes for a generation that aint never heard of Willie Dixon yet he's a genius and the savior of rock? Shiet...

Outkast doesn't need to be in this mix because they're hip hop artists; White America's yet to take that over. When they do, I hope the next young Nas or 2Pac aint dippin' their hands in the cookie jar of past influence cos that "nigger" better watch out!



Hmm. Yes you are right, sort of. Kravitz doesn't borrow his sense of riffs from Zeppelin. To say that is most idiotic; riffs are riffs are riffs are riffs done over and again. Kravitz gets his sense of production from Zeppelin (or used to. Circus and Are You Gonna Go My Way are nothing but Physical Grafitti from the guitar tone down to the drum sounds). And those crunchy rock riffs and licks you're talking about...they are ALL based on the pentatonic scale; the BLUES.

Dewrede said:

Oh yeah? Let me guess...you arent Black are you? If you are, then I say to you, strap on a guitar, play some rock n roll and then come holler at me. You'll find out quickly that it ain't easy being greazy.

Sorry for the copious post and I ain't proofin this mutha so what you see is what you get!

Chuckaducci is one confused, bitter little man, isn't he? Man, he'd make a great politician one day, dodging direct questions and all.

He STILL has yet to answer my question to him about The Black Crowes touring w/ Page. I have asked twice now, and still, no direct answer. You see, if he has such "moral qualms" about liking Led Zeppelin, wouldn't he feel the same about the Crowes? I mean, after all they did tour with Jimmy Page, and they PROFITED from that tour. Playing all those songs too! They made money touring with *gasp* Jimmy Page playing those stolen songs, playing them as Zeppelin did, and then they profited even MORE from CD sales of Greek Theater concert! And the Crowes and Page STILL didn't give any of those profits to the original writers. He better get rid of his Crowes albums, I'd say, if you follow his logic because now THEY have made money on those songs as well.

Shouldn't he feel the same moral obligation to boycott them as well then? I would say so. Because the Crowes obviously have no moral qualms about it, so how can he continue to support such people and be a fan?

And since he's obviously so offended by Plant's "desperate attempt to be black or a bluesman himself", shouldn't he write off all the other rock frontmen such as Rod Stewart, Mick Jagger, Joe Cocker, Keith Relf, and Eric Burdon, to name just a few, as charlatans as well? Add Chris Robinson to that list as well, since he's obviously based his whole singing style on Otis Redding.

And what's a "boardie"?

minneapolisgenius said:

Oh baby, I aint dodging nut-tang! And 5'11" all Black and Native American pure-bred American male aint little, sweetheart. If I didnt answer your question, it was because you did not grasp an earlier post, but dont think for a second you didnt get your answer because I refused to. So...



Again. I've told you who the Crowes give credit to, concerning their influences. Secondly, I've told you that the Crowes never were accused of using songs without permission. The Crowes have never been proven of plagiarism or of straight up ripping off black musicians. Hell, they openly support and SOUND like Southern-Rock Gospel bands, replete with the overweight Black gospel women background singers on album and on stage! So, that being said, I've never had ANY problems with them playing with Zeppelin. In fact, I applauded it. I reveled in it. The Crowes were a DIY southern rock band from Atlanta that made it big. That's like me chastising and refusing to listen to Liszt, the future abbe, for being friends with Wagner, the most reprehensible artist that ever lived. I see your logic; you're basically saying "guilty by association." I'm saying so what? Am I going to stop listening to the Liebestraum cos Hitler liked Tannhauser? Shiet. I dont care who the Crowes play with as long as they're not stealing songs from the past, not giving credit where credit is due and making a profit off of it. I dont judge people or bands for who they hang out with, but for who they are and what (music) they do. Hell, Jesus hung out with crooks and thieves. And He did allright didn't he? (This is where you insert a wink emoticon).

And you've offended me by referring me to being a politician and I do not appreciate it. Politicians lie. I am an artist and I do not lie. Apologies are expected pronto...



First of all, if you filled your responses with more thought than emoticons, you could get a decent point across. And you missed me point, MG. I was never offended by the fact that Plant was using "Black" lyrics in some of his swiped tunes; I was saying that that even exacerbated the theft! The very notion of not only stealing the music but then using expressions found in the song not native to your own tongue....Geesh! They didnt just plagiarize some songs, they took the whole damn thing! The artist you mentioned, add Steve Marriott from Humble Pie. And I've no beef with them. We all know that white people love to act black. Just give us our props and some of that money if you use our ideas. I'm kidding guys...

But seriously, You can't copyright a dance move or stage presence or singing style. But you can copyright songs and lyrics and if I ever find out any of the soulful white brothers that I admire stole ANYTHING from a black artist or discredited a black artist by not crediting them, you and I, MG, can add his name to my Faker list. And we're all boardies; this is a message board right? Or am I tripping on peyote again?

Jimmy Page. He's magically repetitious.

JesseDezz said:

Hey hey hey!!! Now wait a minute J.D. You're my bro and everything. U know I love u and shit. But uh, even though I agree withca about MinnieG, she is a turn on. But I gotta say; that's my girl, player!!

minneapolisgenius said:

Lenny is no different than Prince or myself for that matter. We all blend our influences together to create our "Own" sound. Sure, I agree with the points of Beck and Kravitz though. It was a perfect example of how the critics are and aren't with certain artists. BUT, I also agree with the point u made about how Lenny shouldn't trip over what folks think. I've been compared to Hendrix, Prince and every black guitarist under the sun. That shit used to bug me. A lot.
I'll have just as much Zepp and Sabbath in my sound, but cuz I'm a brother, all I would hear was that I'm the second coming of Funkadelic. Which is cool too. Point is, is that I learned that being an artist, especially a black artist that does something other than hip hop, u are going to catch heat. Period. From black and white folks. You'll have people who will adore u and those who will want you to lose your hands in an accident and shit. But u can't trip on it. YOU have to be at peace with what u do. YOU have to be in love with what YOU do and with who YOU are. That's a true artist. Period.

To get back to the original topic, I listened to Let Love Rule this weekend. The amazing thing about it is how it has aged.

When he first came out, it seemed like a cliched rip-off of 60's attitudes & fashion. In 1989 there was no Vietman (I know there's always a war going on, but to an American kid in '89 it seemed like a peaceful time), and nobody was wearing bell bottoms. Who knew he was actually ahead of his time?

Now we've been at war for (at least) 4 years straight, and in the 90's everybody started wearing bell bottoms, smoking pot, and grew their hair long.

The music is more timely now than it was back then.

We've got to let love rule! What will it take for us to join in peace my friends? Does anybody out there even care?

chuckaducci


Fair enough. I wasn't really arguing that Lenny rips off Prince, but more that he HAS done songs that were HEAVILY influenced by P. I actually see him taking a whole lot of P's Sly & the Family Stone influence and building on that. Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I'm certainly not saying that NOTHING Kravitz does is original, and that he just goes around ripping other people off. This has been a debate as to who had more originality between him and Beck, and whether or not he is being unfairly targeted because of his race.



Okay, I'll give you that, but nonetheless, Outkast and their producers get accolades and they sell records. What they produce, regardless of how many people are involved, has a more original sound to my ears that Lenny. The fact that Lenny is doing it all on his own is impressive in its own right, but it isn't really relevant to his originality. Personally, I PREFER Lenny to Outkast, and I like him just as much as Beck, so you should know that this isn't me trying to tear down Lenny. As I said, I think folks need to get off Lenny's jock for not being original. Many critics praise Alicia Keyes, and that girl is INCREDIBLY derivitive (way more than Lenny). I like some of her stuff too, but she has yet to do anything that has wowed me with originality. Kravitz should be getting props for his playing and his lyrics, both of which he excels at.



Well, on this we will just have to agree to disagree. Still, I'd rather listen to the Zepplin-esque tones of "Are You Gonna Go My Way" over "Hey Ya" any day, regardless of originality.



Well, again, I don't agree. I think Beck blends his work into a more original sound overall. Kravitz is a better frontman, musician and whatnot, but he isn't as original. Beck's weird blend is just more intricate than Kravitz, even if Lenny is a better player. It's more a question of composition, and Kravitz isn't as strong of a song writer.




I'm confused on this one, since Jack Black is a comedian. His group, Tenacious D, got accolades for doing a comedy album that actually was pretty rockin'. I don't think anyone has tried to proclaim him as a musical genius. I think he gets called a genius for his comedy.



Why not? They are a group that wears their influences on their sleeve, thus the comparison. Personally, I couldn't care less about genre labels. I think Kravitz certainly transends the "rock" label, and deserves the respect of being considered alongside other talented musicians, regardless of what type of music they play.



Okay, I'll give you this one as well. He CERTAINLY got his sense of production from Zep, no doubt about it. Well, at least all the albums before 5.

I shouldn't get involved but:

Jack Black--comedian, actor School of Rock, member of Tencious D.
Jack White--guitarist, singer, The White Stripes

I have to agree with Jedi Master that while Beck & Outkast get lots of help, that the sounds & lyrics they produce are more original than Lenny's music (And Beck plays a few instruments himself). But Lenny is a great musician and I don't knock him for his taste & style. It's obviously true to him; he's been doing it for years.

blackguitaristz said:

Sorry BG - I couldn't help myself

You're a lucky man!

chuckaducci said:

I can't call you little? It seems fair since you keep calling me "little miss","little missy", etc. (which strikes me as silly considering I'm 5 years older than you, married, and not so little actually. Not that you would know that or care though).

So what you're saying then is, it's "ok" for the Crowes to collaborate with part of Zeppelin, ok for them to give praise to them (and I'm sure they all grew up listening to them), and it's OK for them to profit off of it, and that's a-ok with you. THEY shouldn't feel any guilt, or have as you say "moral qualms" about it, but I should? I should be judged somehow as a person with no scruples for saying that they are my favorite band, but not them for the collaboration? Yeah, that's really making sense.

Oh, but then they are exempt of course because they have a stage show "replete with the overweight Black gospel women background singers on album and on stage!" Bravo! Is that like a "get out of jail free card" or something? So if Zeppelin did that would they be legit then too? You seem to have some sort of selective reasoning going on here. Zeppelin always did say who they took songs from, and who they were inspired by. They often announced it in concerts before they started each song. They didn't try to hide it and say that they were COMPLETELY original. Their problem was on the albums. No credit given. But we already talked about that.

You also seem to have (as I'm coming to realize the more you post) a major problem with most white artists that have had any sort of success. You cite Clapton, Beck, Jack Black (although I assume you meant Jack White), Bowie, and I'm sure a slew of others to come, as receiving undeserved praise for their influences. So none of these artists can be considered legitimate according to you because they are also influenced by black music?

And yeah, yeah, we all know about pentatonic scales, the blues, and all that. Sounds to me though that you never really wanted music to evolve at all from those early standard blues. Like it should have just stayed that way, and no one should have taken it and experimented w/ it, because anyone (any white artist anyway) who took that and did something of their own with it, is branded as someone who just stole something and can't be taken seriously. I'd be one of the first people to agree that pretty much all American music from the past 100 years or so is based on black music. But no one exists in a bubble. It's called the evolution of popular music, and who cares what the race of the artists are that make it?

Oh, and maybe Lenny's getting less than stellar reviews these days (according to you) because he's just not putting out material as interesting Beck is right now. Just a thought.
[Edited 10/26/05 6:09am]

Two words for you: Steve Cropper

Where does he fit into the scheme of things in your world chuckaducci?
[Edited 10/26/05 5:40am]

andyman91 said:

Ahhh, it makes a whole lot more sense if we are speaking of Jack White.

Okay, Chuckaducci, we can get into Jack White. Yes, incredibly derivitive, no doubt about it. The reason that The White Stripes get accolades is because their stuff is a bit of a return to simplistic garage rock. Part of this is due to the fact that so many bands today just plain suck, and hearing a band like the Stripes is a bit refreshing. I think Lenny might get a similar reaction if he was coming onto the scene with Let Love Rule today. In fact, when LLR was first released, it DID get that kind of reaction. It wasn't really until Mama Said that the backlash about his "unoriginality" started (and, you will note, many critics have started to bash the Stripes in a similar manner). For some reason, critics love to turn on their darlings after a while. For some reason, Beck and Outkast have both managed to escape that, and I don't know why. Perhaps its because they don't put albums out that often?

Screw the critics, what the hell do they know? As David Lee Roth once said "the reason so many critics love Elvis Costello, is because so many critics LOOK like Elvis Costello".


----
[Edited 10/26/05 6:16am]

JediMaster said:

I can't stand The White Stripes.

chuckaducci said:

Absolutely. You said it. And nobody ever points out the similarity between the overproduced lo-fi fakers like Jet and the Kings of Leon and The Donnas. Or the monotonous, nasal, irritating tones of Yellowcard, Simple Plan and Good Charlotte. It's horrible.

Let me start off by sheepishly apologizing for typing Jack Black in my rants when I meant Jack White. I should have known better and I get the two confused. Now, off to putting people, namely MG, in their place!:

minneapolisgenius said:

Shock! You actually said something I agree with. I dont care. I'm messing with you, man. Call me whatever you want; you've been a good sport thus far.



You got it, sister. I guess my Liszt/Wagner analogy went right over your head. I dont care who your bedfellows are, I just care what YOU do.



Hey, all Zeppelin had to do was give credit where credit was due and give those black musicians their cuts; I'd be one of the biggest Zeppelin fans in this board. While the Crowes (heavily influenced by Black gospel churches) not only give props to their influences, they bring on stage their influences! If you're trying to get me to stop admiring the Crowes, or hold them as fallible as I do Zeppelin, stop; you're wasting my time and yours. I've thought about this too long and hard to vacillate in my opinion.



You still have not grasped my gripe (I love alliteration). My gripe with those artists is that they have been influenced by Black artistry. Clapton studied Robert Johnson's licks note for note. Jack White (my apologies again) is steeped in a Delta blues tradition. Beck is definitely a product of the hip hop generation. Bowie wishes he was black so bad, he married one! All I'm saying is that these musicians and their art can easily be picked apart by any as being dercasual music fan as derivative. Any musicologist worth his salt can tell you why and how these artists sound they way they do. The same goes with Kravitz. My problem is, is that these artists get meritorious reviews for their records. Kravitz, who is just as derived from his influences as Beck, Slowhand, Bowie and White, mostly gets his Black ass served to him every time he releases a record! To me, that's RACISM.



Wrong. Who wants to hear "Mannish Boy" in every key? Not me. Go check my profile and tell me that I'm stuck in a music that doesn't evolve. All those white boys had to do was pay up!; I would have been fine.

As a musician, I'm influenced by white musicians. Hypothetically, if I ever took a sample from a white recording artist and didnt pay up, I'd be stealing and I'd get sued from here to tarnation! Wouldnt that be wrong of me, morally and artistically? Thats what has happened to several Bluesmen and as a direct descendant of the blues tradition, that rankles my rancor.



I could give two craps about color. It's just when white musicians ganked blues songs from my people and didnt pay, and then took all the credit, and then slam a Black rock musician for being too derivative, then yeah, the color of your skin does pique my interest.



The first point you've made in this entire debate.