JediMaster said:

Co-sign. I don't know whether is was the commercial success that came with 5 (remember Fly was used in a car commercial) or what, but Lenny sucked and Baptism was even worse. I used to be a fan, but not anymore.

Lenny rules, so what he bites off Prince a little, can you blame him?

CalhounSq said:

Sistamamalover is funky,.....funky

sosgemini said:

I totally agree with sosgemini

sosgemini said:

co-disagree

JesseDezz said:

Craig Ross is the third best giutar player Ive heard next to Prince and Jesse Johnson

4nowneway said:

Lenny LOVE thread

4nowneway said:

I still love Lenny though he canceled two concerts on me

chuckaducci said:

Yes they did. Now get over it.

Oh believe me, I'm over it just as Zeppelin's career is over.

And I'll never stop spreading the truth about one of rock's biggest plagiarists.

Serious said:

Well, if you actually gave an opinion, I could begin to tell you why you're wrong.

chuckaducci said:

Knock yourself out, but don't waste your time preaching to me about it, that's all. There's nothing you could tell me that I don't already know about that subject. Believe me. Wasted breath man, wasted breath. You must have better things to do in your life though. One would hope.


In the meantime, keep spreading that truth.
[Edited 10/23/05 11:28am]

minneapolisgenius said:

Oh, I'm not going to knock myself out; I'm way too busy and way too cute. What I will knock out is that effervescent shine on Zeppelin's legacy, believe that.

...And in doing so ain't going to chalk up alot of my time, girlfriend. It don't take a rocket scientist working on a 27 hour a day schedule to de-mystify charlatans and deconstruct con artists.

chuckaducci said:

Well, I'll let you know when I see that you're making a dent in that effervescent shine. Keep up the hard work though.

Better get back to that busy life and your self-professed cuteness. You wouldn't want to waste a second there.

edit to say that I just checked your profile (you know, to see if you are as cute as you say you are...alas no pic ) and interesting that one of your favorite albums listed is none other than a The Black Crowes album. A band that owe almost their entire sound to Led Zeppelin and also the Stones. Let's see, who have they played with in recent years....let's see...Oh, that would be Jimmy Page. But I'm sure you knew that of course. Here's a photo for you:



Of course, they did PLENTY of Zeppelin songs, including the stolen ones, such as The Lemon Song. I have it, and I could send it to you if you want.
[Edited 10/23/05 11:52am]

minneapolisgenius said:

LOL!

It's not interesting that I don't have a picture of me. If you knew my personality, you'd know that I don't need anyone's approval to re-assure myself that I'm cute. And I don't have to "get back" to being cute if I already am. Trust me!

I checked your profile (you're really cute) as well, and we share the same taste in music. But I have to check you.

The Black Crowes have made a point of giving a nod to their influences. Their second album, the one listed in my profile, is named after a hymnal found in Southern Black churches. On tour and on record, two black background singers add a little flavor to the mix. Chris Robinson has gone on record as stating that his entire vocal style is patterned on that of Otis Redding. Rich Robinson lists a slew of Missisippi delta men as his guitar influences. And The Crowes have had the inimitable pleasure of NOT being sued for ripping off someone else's tunes!

I've made my point, dont want to exhaust it and now I'm moving on. I don't like arguing with cutie pies anyways!

chuckaducci said:

Yes, I know all that about the Crowes, as they are one of my other favorite bands. I never once said (and I've discussed it many times before on this site already) that I thought it was ok what Zeppelin did in their early career. I think it was utterly stupid of them not to give songwriting credit where credit was due. Most Zeppelin fans have had to come to terms with that, and what can I say? I don't know what was going on in their heads back then. But since then, they have apologized, been sued, and publicly gone on record stating their obvious influences. and have even put out compilation albums including their favorite artists that they were so influenced by. Too little too late you'd say I'm sure, but what more can they do. What's done is done, and what I'm trying to get at here is this: Those songs that they ripped off are not anywhere NEAR the whole of their body of work. Work consisting of original compositions that far surpass most of their blues covers IMO.

Hell, they have 9 studio albums out and obviously they contain more than just ripped off tunes. Also, you must know that they were equally just as influenced by folk music as much as blues. Jimmy Page has said he was obssessed with it. I think that people get stuck in the thinking that all they could do was rip people off, when they really don't want to look much further than that. Or can't look much further than that because they are so angry at their success or something. But they are undeniably a kickass rock band. I have all the original versions of course, and you can't honestly say that they didn't put their own twist on them can you? That they don't have their own "sound" that hundreds of rocks bands to follow would try to emulate. They sound nothing like Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters, etc. nor did they really try to. (well, I'll agree that Muddy Waters doing Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" DID sound a lot like the original. Hence the lawsuit) Not giving CREDIT to the original writers was their downfall.

Again, I think it was just ridiculous that no credit was given, but for me, that doesn't take away the fact that they were one of the most amazing live bands around. I can enjoy Willie Dixon, Memphis Minnie, Howlin' Wolf, Led Zeppelin, (and all the other mostly British rock bands that also played their music) AND The Black Crowes and Lenny Kravitz as well.


spelling edit and thanks to JACKAL for recently sending me Memphis Minnie's "Levee Breaks" since that was the one I didn't have yet
[Edited 10/23/05 12:41pm]

The reason for my dissatisfaction with the legacy over Zeppelin is due to the fact that there are/were many broke Delta blues men who existed after the English and American blues-rock boom, while Page & Co. are out chilling in some English country-side manor. As a direct descendant of those blues men who does rock occassionally, yeah, my ire has been stoked. Nothing can rectify what white musicians did to the legacy and financial status of black musicians doing "nigger music;" while I get my faced stuffed with Elvis is the King and Lenny Kravitz is retro-influenced fueled rock, that's the worst offense to me. Wait a second..rectifying can commence with Page giving some of that money of his away to those bluesmen or setting up some sort of fund, but that aint gon' happen now, is it?

As far as Zeppelin being a great live band, um, sure. If you could get Plant to sing on key, Page to not be sloppy and Bonham to play on time, maybe that could be a yes. Zeppelin were definitely a studio band, imo.

So after reading your latest post and you reading mine, for you to pipe in on a previous post of mine with Zeppelin being deserving of critical laudation (go back and check your responses), I'd have to say maybe you should recant that statement. If Zeppelin gets slammed from time to time, it's their own doing.

chuckaducci said:

I don't need to go back and check my previous posts. I know what I wrote. And I won't recant any statements I've made so far. I'm sure you won't, but check out the recent DVD of their live shows that was released two years ago. Sure there are some far from perfect performances, but the majority of it is amazing IMO. FYI: Plant didn't sing off key until after he had surgery on his throat, Page has always been sloppy, but he could be brilliant when he wanted to be, especially on acoustic, and when was Bonham ever off time? I've yet to hear it. Not a perfect band, no, but still my favorite.

As far as rectifying goes, sure Page could give some of his money away to those bluesmen, your relatives, and that thought/idea has ocurred to me from time to time. He does however, work nowdays with many charities, mainly the ABC Trust which is set up in Brazil to give food and shelter to Rio's street children there. He has helped raise, and given away his own money as well, hundreds of thousands of dollars, (I'm sure by now after 10 years affiliation w/ them, it's up in the millions) to help these kids and was recently awarded an OBE in Britain and also made an honorary citizen of Rio de Janeiro for his efforts there. Not much you might say, but at least now he's trying to give back to a community. Maybe not THE communtiy you'd like him to, but at least it's something.

Oh, and I've NEVER called Elvis "The King".

damn spelling edit again
[Edited 10/23/05 13:18pm]

4nowneway said:

Those 2 cats can play more styles than Craig I suppose

But for full-tilt rock'n'roll Craig leaves them in the dust

JesseDezz said:

thank u...that dude cant hardly play...its sad...he´s stuck in blues scale 101 for high schoolersland

JesseDezz said:

I agree, I love his drumming! And he's honestly one of my favorite bass players - so funky and groovy. He's inspired me to buy lots of instruments and do a lot of mic experimentation. It's fun pretending I guess.

The best part of "Is There Any Love in Your Heart?" to me is the creamy rhythm guitar part in the breakdown. Reminds me a lot of later Sweet records, to be honest.

prettymansson said:

We all know Lenny's no guitar god. Even Mick Mars is better - maybe even Rick Nielsen of the great Cheap Trick is better. Sorry, Rick.

minneapolisgenius said:

Meh. Keep your band. Hey, don't get me wrong. Zeppelin was a good starting point in my music career. But after awhile (and some studying), their lustre began to lose some of that blinding sheen.




Entirely not the community he needs to be giving his money to. If he gave some of his loot to Dixon's family or Diddley or King, are alive and still not paid, my antipathy towards them would decrease.



NEVER said you did.

Black man creates rock music. Black man plays rock music. White man tells radio and kids don't play black rock music. White kids love black rock music. White kids rebel, play black rock music. White kids don't pay black man for using his black rock music. White kids take over black rock music. Black man gets criticized for playing his own black rock music. White man and kids claim their black rock music as their own.

Aint that a bitch.

chuckaducci said:

Yes I will keep my band thank you very much. I agree that some money should still be given to the surviving original artists. But what about Plant or Jones? They could certainly contribute to that as well you'd think. Not just Page.

I'm still stuck on the statement you made earlier though about how Lenny or the Black Crowes were not necessarily influenced by Zeppelin though. If you knew Zeppelin's music to any extent, you would see the obvious references. It's quite ridiculous to say otherwise. I mean, just listen to "My Morning Song" or "She Talks To Angels" to name just two examples. They are played in that Zeppelinesque style, even right down to the little acoustic flourishes in the latter song. They are straight from Bron-Y-Aur Stomp. Of course Chris Robinson and Co. are going to list more subtle influences on their music, (like Otis) instead of just coming out and saying blatantly that they are also heavily influenced by bands such as the Stones and Zeppelin. They don't have to say that. It's very evident and they are compared to those bands all the time. That would be like Prince just saying flat out that his main influences are James Brown, Jimi Hendrix, and Sly Stone. I think that's a given and very plain to see. As for Lenny: same thing. It's what attracted me to his music in the first place: that he had that light-and-shade thing going on. Every artist is affected by the ones who came before them. It's unavoidable.

See, it would be quite lucacris to deny Zeppelin their place in rock history. They are a huge piece of the rock family tree, like it or not. Hell, both the Crowes and Lenny were both coming on the scene around the same time, and they based their whole image on that style. They both had that hippy-ish, 70s rock star vibe going on. They were GOING for the retro feel. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and looking back, it was refreshing to see that when everyone else was playing grunge and wearing flannel shirt and baggy jeans. I'm not saying that Lenny is only a "retro" artist, but he certainly owes a lot to that era. I mean, if Zeppelin had never existed, would Lenny's sound have been all "fresh and new" then when he came on the scene? Would he have done that sound first? It's a moot point I suppose, but it just got me thinking you know.

And how can you, a person who despises Zeppelin, still have respect for another band, the Crowes, when they choose to tour with Jimmy Page of all people, and play Zeppelin's songs? Songs like "Whole Lotta Love", and "Nobody's Fault But Mine" for example. They obviously have a lot of respect for Zeppelin and their style of playing rock. Just wondering.

I have to say though, that I do find it really interesting to talk with someone who's been directly affrected via their descendants by this. I've talked to people before with the same reasons for disliking Zeppelin, but it never really went any further than them saying something like, "Oh Led Zeppelin suck. They're a bunch of thieves...." etc. I'm always up for a discussion about these sorts of things because I am sort of obsessed with the history of music, and who begat who, and so on. And most who know me on this site, if they are reading this, are probably laughing and/or shocked because I usually only post in one word responses or in emoticons.
[Edited 10/24/05 4:32am]

I just wanna say that minneapolisgenius is very cute

JesseDezz said:

Don't interrupt me during my rant dammit!





But thanks though. Although that's not the point here.

minneapolisgenius said:

Page wrote the tunes. So I want him to couhg up the dough. Actually, since I seriously doubt Plant, save for the influence of those Delta bluesmen, hadn't heard lyrics like "backdoor man" and "squeeze the lemon 'till the juice runs down my leg", he wouldn't have used them, in his desperate attempt to be black or a bluesman himself. So yeah, maybe I can coax some dough out of Plant as well.




What? Love, you need to go listen to some Allman Bros. and then get back at me.



Boy, you must like being wrong all the time! Not only is having Otis Redding as an vocal influence NOT obscure or a subtley but the music of the Crowes is based on boogie; therefore, they're closer to the Stones and the Faces than they are to Zeppelin. The Crowes never wanted to be Zeppelin; they left that up to early Aerosmith. The Crowes wished to be Rod Stewart, Ronnie Lane, Ronnie Wood and the rest of the Faces. I think some Humble Pie flourishes abound as well.



Didn't I just post that Zeppelin was a starting point for my forays into rock?



So what? Yeah, Kravitz and the Crowes owe a debt of gratitude to the 70s but there are a plethora of artists who do as well. Furthermore, to suggest that Kravitz copped anything other than Zeppelin's production style, is to suggest much needed polishing up of your rock history.



Wow. Is that how I come off? First of all, I dont make it a point to go around slinging dirt on Zeppelin. That aint my bag. They aren't an influential band for nothing; even their most heated opponent cannot deny that. My point is, is that anytime I see a Black rock musician getting heat for being retro or having too many ostensible influences, I get upset. Kravitz is Black! A Black man doing rock is not an anomaly. It's in our blood.

Why is he criticized for his influences? His influences are a part of his heritage! His lineage help create the fucken genre of rock, yet he's lambasted for being influenced by it? Gimme a break! Beck, Clapton, Bowie and a host of others get praised for their influences. With Kravitz...oh good lord in heaven! You'd think that brother stole something.

EDIT:

couhg? Sorry about that.
[Edited 10/24/05 9:46am]

chuckaducci said:

Page didn't write all the tunes. John Paul Jones had a big part in it as well. And I don't need to go listen to some Allman Bros. and get back to you because I know full well what they sound like, as they are another one of my favorite bands.

I never once said that the Crowes were ONLY influenced by Zeppelin. Not at all. I hear all those bands in the mix as well. Give me some fucking credit for knowing rock music, damn.

Then you say this:

"So what? Yeah, Kravitz and the Crowes owe a debt of gratitude to the 70s but there are a plethora of artists who do as well. Furthermore, to suggest that Kravitz copped anything other than Zeppelin's production style, is to suggest much needed polishing up of your rock history.

Thats just bullshit and you should know that.

Lenny is playing his rock music in a 70s rock style. Simple as that. He's NOT playing rock Chuck Berry style, or playing blues the way Muddy Waters did or any of that, so you can see why people would call his sound "retro 70's rock". I don't know why you're jumping down MY throat for pointing that out, because I never once said that was a bad thing. I was not one of the people criticizing him for his influences.

"First of all, I dont make it a point to go around slinging dirt on Zeppelin. That aint my bag."

And uh, yeah that IS your "bag" apparently and that is how you come off.

"It don't take a rocket scientist working on a 27 hour a day schedule to de-mystify charlatans and deconstruct con artists."

This statement (and others, including saying how they can't play live, sing, and stating how you'll never stop spreading the 'truth" about them) is nothing other than negative. Sounds like dirt slinging to me. But go ahead and knock yourself out, like I said.

My intention was not to try and change your mind about them, to get you to agree with me, etc. I just thought it was interesting to talk with someone whose opinion was on the total other side of the spectrum than mine was.

I thought you were pretty cool to talk to until you had to go and get very hostile with me and start putting down my knowledge of rock history with snide comments. It's not my fucking fault that white British men stole black music from you! I can't change history. I just like the music it had produced over the years.