if that makes you mad, look up the lyrics to zappa's song "you are what you is".

not only does he drop the "n-bomb", but he writes a song that makes people have to THINK! the bastard.

Anxiety said:

I listened to that song and also read the lyrics. IT'S STILL A FAR CRY from the rest of the material on Thing Fish. Simply "dropping the N Bomb" in a song does not make you a racist or an ignorant person. In fact the word is quite valid in the sentence context in which it is used...But "Thing Fish" is some old other shit. I understand his point AND use of wording in "You are what you is" and I really don't see what your point is in bringing up this song. It doesn't clarify his direction or thinking on "Thing Fish". And it's kinda apples and oranges.

FanofDaFascist said:

not really. he's using the minstrel show imagery as a metaphor. for what? well, i guess you'd have to take in the piece with an open mind and not let the imagery in and of itself trigger an automatic response that, however appropriately installed, might sometimes get in the way of understanding what the artist has to say.

though it doesn't help that 'thing fish' is an incredibly obtuse, surrealist piece of music...still and all, zappa was no chump and he wasn't ignorant about race issues - i think he's one of the few social satirists who could write edgy stuff on race and get away with it.

Very well put... But no matter what, to some people, anything that remotely resembles a throw back to minstrel shows is utterly hurtful and offensive. It's like going to a poetry recital and someone saying "Pay no attention to the black man hanging from a tree stage left with the man in the white hood standing along side of him stage right. Just listen to the words I'm speaking as I stand here and try to tell you about,Your plight and how I view you people". It's just not right man.

if that makes you mad, look up the lyrics to zappa's song "you are what you is".

not only does he drop the "n-bomb", but he writes a song that makes people have to THINK! the bastard.

Anxiety said:

i was gonna post the same damn thing!

Though, i don't think those lyrics have ever set to well with me. i don't care if there is a black man singing the song.

sinisterpentatonic said:

you think the lyrics are bad? have you ever seen the video?

I finally heard the music and I even saw the pictorial, to be used for a off- broadway play that never materialized....

I guess the real problem is that when using that kind imagery, even to make a point, everyone is immediately offended. Darius James's "Negrophobia", Spike Lee's "Bamboozled" and Ralph Bakshi's animated movie, "Coonskin" (rereleased as "Streetfight") all used the imagery to make a point about the way Blacks have been stereotyped in our culture, particularly in the media...

as you pointed out, people have a hard enough time when black people use the images, But when a white person uses dialect and imagery like that it's even more shocking, because most people, black and white, feel that whites don't have the right to use that imagery, even to make a point...

Zappa's intention was not to mock African Americans, but to ridicule the way they have been depicted on Broadway beacause of racism -But the problem is, the dialect and imagery are still to vulgar and hurtful to most people, so much so that it obscures any point that's trying to be made.


Though a lot of Zappa fans, Black and White, love the album, and think it make's some good satirical points about racism, sexism, homophobia, and our government, most people's take would probaby be similar to this one, from a customer at Amazon.com:




Fish been laying on the dock too long, June 4, 2004
Reviewer: Chet Fakir (DC) - See all my reviews

Thing Fish is an excuse for Zappa to weave a story line about some government conspiracy crap to execute blacks and "fagnits" around (mostly) previously released material. It also has to do with black stereotypes as portrayed by the media and in old musicals (Broadway). Thingfish takes the form of a bogus Broadway play and it harkens back to Zappa's theatrical live nuttiness with the original Mothers. Check out "Ahead of Their Time" for a much better, musically original and funny version of a Zappa stage play. Or "Joes Garage" or "We're Only In It For The Money" for a more original and interesting satire. The songs rehashed on this album are done much better on other albums, be it the original version or a live one. Skip this unless you like LOTS of silly bogus "negro" dialect (its not funny and is sure to be so offensive to many that I don't care what point Zappa thinks he's making) and other annoying voice overs. There are a few amusing dialogues between Dale and Terry Bozio however as the stereotypical uptight middle class white folks. But in general its not funny, at all; the overall story and satire are lame if not stupid, been done before, hard to follow and ultimately boring. This is without a doubt Zappa's worst album. With so much great stuff in the Zappa catalog you can safely pass this one by.



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i disagree with this review. but then again im strange and unusual

TheRealFiness said:

No, it's not strange, I'm sure that there are many who do get it. I'm just saying that most will end up agreeing with the review , at least about the dialect and imagery, not the music itself....


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paligap said:

well i guess if u grew up with FZ and get the Humor of it all, then yeah they will get it, but these kids today think everything is a racist rub against someone or something, personally i say Get a fuckin grip,its how Zappa was and if it makes u mad? leave it alone.

I was looking up Johnny Guitar Watson and came across Frank Zappa's "Thing Fish" (Watson appears on this album). As I looked at the cover, I said to myself am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? Is this some minstrel show bullshit on the cover? Well yes it is...to an extent. I qued this album up on Rhapsody and started listening to it. The language threw me aback. I looked up the album and saw that it was a concept album, basically a bogus Broadway musical, which spoke out against racism, religion, and sexuality. But the more I listened, the more I had wonder is this album really speaking out against racism? In fact it felt more to me like a white mans production of Spike Lee's "Bamboozled". Neither were done in good taste and both were very hard to swallow. Most write ups on this album talk about the quality of the music, I'm sorry but the lyrics and so called storyline are much more important and detrimental. Has anyone else heard of this shit? How did it ever get produced? It's offensive as hell! It was offensive when a black man did it and called it "Bamboozled" and it's even more offensive being done by a white man. There's also a book called "Negrophibia - An Urban Parable" by Darius James; which I've also had the displeasure of reading. It seems as if this book was based on this album; many similarities.

If you've never heard of this album take a moment to look it up. If you have heard this album; please feel free to share your opinion.

I don't know why nobody has bothered to point out that the majority of the songs on the album were sung by Ike Willis and Ray White, two black men

I finally heard the music and I saw the pictorial, to be used for a off- broadway play that never materialized....

I guess the real problem is that when using that kind imagery, even to make a point, everyone is immediately offended. Darius James's "Negrophobia", Spike Lee's "Bamboozled" and Ralph Bakshi's animated movie, "Coonskin" (rereleased as "Streetfight") all used the imagery to make a point about the way Blacks have been stereotyped in our culture, particularly in the media...

as you pointed out, people have a hard enough time when black people use the images, But when a white person uses dialect and imagery like that it's even more shocking, because most people, black and white, feel that whites don't have the right to use that imagery, even to make a point...

Zappa's intention was not to mock African Americans, but to ridicule the way they have been depicted on Broadway beacause of racism - But the problem is, the dialect and imagery are still too vulgar and hurtful to most people, so much so that for them, it obscures any point that's trying to be made.


Though a lot of Zappa fans, Black and White, love the album, and think it make's some good satirical points about racism, sexism, homophobia, and our government, most people's take would probaby be similar to this one, from a customer at Amazon.com:




Fish been laying on the dock too long, June 4, 2004
Reviewer: Chet Fakir (DC) - See all my reviews

Thing Fish is an excuse for Zappa to weave a story line about some government conspiracy crap to execute blacks and "fagnits" around (mostly) previously released material. It also has to do with black stereotypes as portrayed by the media and in old musicals (Broadway). Thingfish takes the form of a bogus Broadway play and it harkens back to Zappa's theatrical live nuttiness with the original Mothers. Check out "Ahead of Their Time" for a much better, musically original and funny version of a Zappa stage play. Or "Joes Garage" or "We're Only In It For The Money" for a more original and interesting satire. The songs rehashed on this album are done much better on other albums, be it the original version or a live one. Skip this unless you like LOTS of silly bogus "negro" dialect (its not funny and is sure to be so offensive to many that I don't care what point Zappa thinks he's making) and other annoying voice overs. There are a few amusing dialogues between Dale and Terry Bozio however as the stereotypical uptight middle class white folks. But in general its not funny, at all; the overall story and satire are lame if not stupid, been done before, hard to follow and ultimately boring. This is without a doubt Zappa's worst album. With so much great stuff in the Zappa catalog you can safely pass this one by.



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[Edited 8/27/05 8:18am]